The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

[LmL]

In case you haven't seen it, this timeline is pretty awesome....gives lunar cycles and stuff...

Thanks very much for that, I'm sure it will come in handy.

[Voice]

Ok, so I guess I didn't mean to say "normal" as in "just like ours." I meant only that it is not in a geosynchronous orbit, because then the all phases of the moon would occur each day... Again, unless I am missing something. I am no more than an amateur astronomer, with a very incomplete knowledge of astronomy compared to someone who went to college for it. I may be misunderstanding, so correct me if I am wrong, I'd like to figure this out.

For the record, I'm no astronomer either. But one of the languages I teach utilizes an extremely complicated lunar calendar system, so I had to familiarize myself with the lunar cycle in some considerable detail.

Honestly, I think we may have to give GRRM a pass on this one. Either it is simply an oversight, or a matter of creative license. I only brought it up because, strictly speaking, the moon needs to make an appearance at all times of day and night due to the relationship of the planet with the sun and its satellite. And, because Planetos' moon is "only seen at night" this leads me to believe that either:

1. Planetos is not part of a heliocentric solar system, or:

Planetos' "moon" is actually a planet, or:

Magic is at work in Lunar Cycles, as it is in the Seasons, or:

Oversight/creative license.

[Waters Gate]

Is there a second moon over Westeros?

I asked myself this question before, and then i went to search for indication or proof of it. To needed this proof i needed 2 different observations from different geographical positions at the same time. Arya was fantastic for this as what she see's trough her wolf is thousands of miles away from herself. And this is what i got:

From a feast for crows, Cat of the canals chapter:

"Cat would always find the kindly man waiting for her when she went creeping back to the temple on the knoll on the night the moon went black. “What do you know that you did not know when you left us?” he would always ask her."

“All men must serve.” And so she did, three days of every thirty. When the moon was black she was no one, a servant of the Many-Faced God in a robe of black and white. She walked beside the kindly man through the fragrant darkness, carrying her iron lantern. She washed the dead, went through their clothes, and counted out their coins. Some days she still helped Umma cook, chopping big white mushrooms and boning fish. But only when the moon was black. The rest of the time she was an orphan girl in a pair of battered boots too big for her feet and a brown cloak with a ragged hem, crying “Mussels and cockles and clams” as she wheeled her barrow through the Ragman’s Harbor.

The moon would be black tonight, she knew; last night it had been no more than a sliver. “What do you know that you did not know when you left us?” the kindly man would ask as soon as he saw her."

This passage is foremost the one i use to proof that the Moon takes 30 days to revolve aroudn Planetos. Arya always goes for to the house of black and white for 3 days of every 30 days, when the moon is black. Thus, the moon takes 30 days to go back to new moon.

Another thing this passage shows is that Arya tends to only be at the house of black and white when the moon is black, if the moon is in any other stance then she's doing her work in Braavos itself.

From a dance with dragons, the blind girl chapter, and the following is all from the same chapter:

Her nights were lit by distant stars and the shimmer of moonlight on snow, but every dawn she

woke to darkness.

She opened her eyes and stared up blind at the black that shrouded her, her dream already

fading. So beautiful. She licked her lips, remembering. The bleating of the sheep, the terror in the

shepherd’s eyes, the sound the dogs had made as she killed them one by one, the snarling of her pack.

Game had become scarcer since the snows began to fall, but last night they had feasted. Lamb and dog

and mutton and the flesh of man. Some of her little grey cousins were afraid of men, even dead men,

but not her. Meat was meat, and men were prey. She was the night wolf.

But only when she dreamed.

Same day apparently as she had this dream, the kindly man comes to her.

“As you will.” She could hear him peeling the egg, then a faint silvery clink as he picked up the

salt spoon. He liked his eggs well salted. “Where did my poor blind girl go begging last night?”

“The Inn of the Green Eel.”

“And what three new things do you know that you did not know when last you left us?”

It is implied in the previous book that these 3 questions are only asked about every month. Or atleast, asked every turn of the moon, specificly when the moon is dark.

In her wolf-dream that night however she hunts with her pack somewhere in Westeros under the moonlight, whereas by the token that the kindly man comes to interrogate her we should assume that we are at the new moon/dark moon in Braavos.

Indirect proof supposedly, as in principle phases of the moon cannot be different under normal circumstances watched from other parts of the world afaik. So if there is a dark moon over Braavos, and there is moonlight over Westeros, then that might very well imply there to be actually 2 moons.

However, 2 moons also leads to a load of issue's, ragardless if the text might have a hint to it.

[LmL]

Is there a second moon over Westeros?

I asked myself this question before, and then i went to search for indication or proof of it. To needed this proof i needed 2 different observations from different geographical positions at the same time. Arya was fantastic for this as what she see's trough her wolf is thousands of miles away from herself. And this is what i got:

From a feast for crows, Cat of the canals chapter:

"Cat would always find the kindly man waiting for her when she went creeping back to the temple on the knoll on the night the moon went black. “What do you know that you did not know when you left us?” he would always ask her."

“All men must serve.” And so she did, three days of every thirty. When the moon was black she was no one, a servant of the Many-Faced God in a robe of black and white. She walked beside the kindly man through the fragrant darkness, carrying her iron lantern. She washed the dead, went through their clothes, and counted out their coins. Some days she still helped Umma cook, chopping big white mushrooms and boning fish. But only when the moon was black. The rest of the time she was an orphan girl in a pair of battered boots too big for her feet and a brown cloak with a ragged hem, crying “Mussels and cockles and clams” as she wheeled her barrow through the Ragman’s Harbor.

The moon would be black tonight, she knew; last night it had been no more than a sliver. “What do you know that you did not know when you left us?” the kindly man would ask as soon as he saw her."

This passage is foremost the one i use to proof that the Moon takes 30 days to revolve aroudn Planetos. Arya always goes for to the house of black and white for 3 days of every 30 days, when the moon is black. Thus, the moon takes 30 days to go back to new moon.

Another thing this passage shows is that Arya tends to only be at the house of black and white when the moon is black, if the moon is in any other stance then she's doing her work in Braavos itself.

From a dance with dragons, the blind girl chapter, and the following is all from the same chapter:

Her nights were lit by distant stars and the shimmer of moonlight on snow, but every dawn she

woke to darkness.

She opened her eyes and stared up blind at the black that shrouded her, her dream already

fading. So beautiful. She licked her lips, remembering. The bleating of the sheep, the terror in the

shepherd’s eyes, the sound the dogs had made as she killed them one by one, the snarling of her pack.

Game had become scarcer since the snows began to fall, but last night they had feasted. Lamb and dog

and mutton and the flesh of man. Some of her little grey cousins were afraid of men, even dead men,

but not her. Meat was meat, and men were prey. She was the night wolf.

But only when she dreamed.

Same day apparently as she had this dream, the kindly man comes to her.

“As you will.” She could hear him peeling the egg, then a faint silvery clink as he picked up the

salt spoon. He liked his eggs well salted. “Where did my poor blind girl go begging last night?”

“The Inn of the Green Eel.”

“And what three new things do you know that you did not know when last you left us?”

It is implied in the previous book that these 3 questions are only asked about every month. Or atleast, asked every turn of the moon, specificly when the moon is dark.

In her wolf-dream that night however she hunts with her pack somewhere in Westeros under the moonlight, whereas by the token that the kindly man comes to interrogate her we should assume that we are at the new moon/dark moon in Braavos.

Indirect proof supposedly, as in principle phases of the moon cannot be different under normal circumstances watched from other parts of the world afaik. So if there is a dark moon over Braavos, and there is moonlight over Westeros, then that might very well imply there to be actually 2 moons.

However, 2 moons also leads to a load of issue's, ragardless if the text might have a hint to it.

Could this be an oversight? The dire wolf / moon connection is very strong, it’s possible he just wanted the moon symbolism with the wolves.

Or, the sentence could be more generic as far as timing - "Her nights were lit by distant stars and the shimmer of moonlight on snow, but every dawn she woke to darkness.” This could simply be a generic description of her wolf dreams, which presumably sometimes occur on the 27 out of 30 days she isn’t at the HOBW. Or does wearing a face prevent her from wolf dreaming?

If there were two similar looking moons, or two visible moons at all, the masters would surely know. The only way a second moon exists is as a dead husk, far out in space... I don’t even think that’s very plausible.

[Waters Gate]

Could this be an oversight? The dire wolf / moon connection is very strong, it’s possible he just wanted the moon symbolism with the wolves.

Absolutly. It could very well be that GRRM didn't consider that he was writing up a Paradox with that. It's easy to see how the proof i found can be considred as fairly obscure and going into very minute detail, so it leaves more room for it being a GRRM error.

Or, the sentence could be more generic as far as timing - "Her nights were lit by distant stars and the shimmer of moonlight on snow, but every dawn she woke to darkness.” This could simply be a generic description of her wolf dreams, which presumably sometimes occur on the 27 out of 30 days she isn’t at the HOBW. Or does wearing a face prevent her from wolf dreaming?

At this point in the story she is blinded. I presume that indeed in part it refference's to the fact that Arya can still see trough her wolf. As to the nights it refers to, it might be tose 27 nights, but for the same matter it might be those 3 nights spent at the house of black and white, the only thing there is to say about it is that she always seem to see moonlight in her dreams regardless, whether she's sleeping at the house of black and wihite or not. Given how the chapters are formatted and how this folows one another, i did get the impression that Arya was talking to the Kindly man the same morning after which she had woken apparently in the house of black and white from having had a wolf dream under the moonlight.

If there were two similar looking moons, or two visible moons at all, the masters would surely know. The only way a second moon exists is as a dead husk, far out in space... I don’t even think that’s very plausible.

Indeed. But what about an "object"? A moon would be easy to spot by the virtue of periodicly going around the world. But what if say it was a rogue object looking like a moon, basiclya big reflective rock going at a somewhat unexpected path trough space, maybe a moon that had been hit out of course for ex. Or maybe a moon of another planet?

One thing to consder is that astronomers in the woiaf make all their observations usually from quite up the northern hemisphere, this leaves certain amounts of space in the south unobserved. One has to consider the planets angle, the equatorial plane, and the idea that objects moving along the southern horizon might not be visible in the north. (or at all times in fact) A moon tends to pass at both hemisphere's since even if it's rotation is at an angle in relation to the equatorial plane of earth (which itself sists angled vs the sun) the moon rotates aroudn earths center of gravity and therefore she will pass as much along the south as along the north regardless of her angle vs earths equatorial plane. A rogue object or the moon of a differet object can behave quite different in this regard iirc, and so it's possible for ex. that for much of the time where the northern hemisphere is angled more north during a normal winter season created by axial tilt, that people in the north might not see obects that people might witness in the southern hemisphere.

[Durran Durrandon]

Dr. Seuss is familiar with Morningstar deities, it would seem. ;)

VotFM, do you disagree with Waters Gate that the moon has been observed to go through its phases every 30 days?

Yertle is clearly representative of the demiurge of the Old Testament Bible. It is known.

[WeaselPie]

Repetitions from Bran ADWD 33 - maybe he doesn't notice the other phases or...something.

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife

The moon was fat and full

The moon was a black hole in the sky

[Greymoon]

As for the possibility of a second, smaller moons orbiting Planetos in geosynchronous orbit, I doubt it. That would mean that it would always be above the same spot on the planet and would appear to go through crescent, gibbous, new moon and full moon phases every day because it orbits the planet every day rather than taking roughly a month like our moon does.

Isn't the idea of the theory that there once was a second moon, that doesn't exist anymore? If Planetos is bigger than our planet, follows that the moons orbit would take longer at equal distance (and equal resonance) from Planetos as our moon to earth...

GRRM has never specifically said how long a 'moon's turn' is in westeros, though it probably isn't much longer than moon phases in real world...pregnancies last 'nine moons' I think?

In any case....I don't understand your objections tbh, concerning the existence of a second moon...even if I do agree that it seems unlikely -- the orbit argument isn't really an argument at all, imo.... for ex. IO, Ganymede and Europa all have different orbits around Jupiter, 'IO's Phase' is shorter than Europa's, that is shorter than Ganymede -- because Ganymede is furthest away.... While Ganymede orbits once, IO orbits four times around Jupiter....it has an 42.5 hours orbit, while Ganymede takes 7 days and three hours....

Io orbits Jupiter at a distance of 421,700 km (262,000 mi) from Jupiter's center and 350,000 km (217,000 mi) from its cloudtops. It is the innermost of the Galilean satellites of Jupiter, its orbit lying between those of Thebe and Europa. Including Jupiter's inner satellites, Io is the fifth moon out from Jupiter. It takes 42.5 hours to complete one orbit (fast enough for its motion to be observed over a single night of observation). Io is in a 2:1 mean-motion orbital resonance with Europa and a 4:1 mean-motion orbital resonance with Ganymede, completing two orbits of Jupiter for every one orbit completed by Europa, and four orbits for every one completed by Ganymede. This resonance helps maintain Io's orbital eccentricity (0.0041), which in turn provides the primary heating source for its geologic activity (see the "Tidal heating" section for a more detailed explanation of the process).^[35] Without this forced eccentricity, Io's orbit would circularize through tidal dissipation, leading to a geologically less active world.

Like the other Galilean satellites and the Moon, Io rotates synchronously with its orbital period, keeping one face nearly pointed toward Jupiter. This synchronicity provides the definition for Io's longitude system. Io's prime meridian intersects the equator at the sub-Jovian point. The side of Io that always faces Jupiter is known as the subjovian hemisphere, whereas the side that always faces away is known as the antijovian hemisphere. The side of Io that always faces in the direction that Io travels in its orbit is known as the leading hemisphere, whereas the side that always faces in the opposite direction is known as the trailing hemisphere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_%28moon%29

Saturn has many, many satellites as well and some big ones....Enceladus takes 32.9 hours to complete its orbit.

Enceladus is one of the major inner satellites of Saturn. It is the fourteenth satellite when ordered by distance from Saturn, and orbits within the densest part of the E Ring, the outermost of Saturn's rings.^[27]

Enceladus orbits Saturn at a distance of 238,000 km from its center and 180,000 km from its cloud tops, between the orbits of Mimas and Tethys, requiring 32.9 hours to revolve once (fast enough for its motion to be observed over a single night of observation). Enceladus is currently in a 2:1 mean motion orbital resonance with Dione, completing two orbits of Saturn for every one orbit completed by Dione. This resonance maintains Enceladus's orbital eccentricity (0.0047). It is known as a forced eccentricity. Non-zero eccentricity results in tidal deformation of Enceladus. The heat dissipation resulting from this deformation is the main heating source for Enceladus's geologic activity.^[4]

Like most of the larger natural satellites of Saturn, Enceladus rotates synchronously with its orbital period, keeping one face pointed toward Saturn. Unlike the Moon, Enceladus does not appear to librate about its spin axis (more than 1.5°). However, analysis of the shape of Enceladus suggests that at some point it was in a 1:4 forced secondary spin–orbit libration.^[4] This libration could have provided Enceladus with an additional heat source.^[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enceladus

The point here, is just to show that as long as we know nothing about Planetos and its satellite(s) we certainly can't say that this and that is impossible. A 'moon' can have an orbit of roughly a day and a half, and probably less -- but I don't have the time right know to look it up.

...and for all we know, Westeros's moon is like Triton:

Triton is unique among all large moons in the Solar System for its retrograde orbit around its planet (i.e., it orbits in a direction opposite to the planet's rotation). Most of the outer irregular moons of Jupiter and Saturn also have retrograde orbits, as do some of Uranus's outer moons. However, these moons are all much more distant from their primaries, and are small in comparison; the largest of them (Phoebe)^[g] has only 8% of the diameter (and 0.03% of the mass) of Triton.

Triton's orbit is associated with two tilts, the inclination of Neptune's spin to Neptune's orbit, 30°, and the inclination of Triton's orbit to Neptune's spin, 157° (an inclination over 90° indicates retrograde motion). Triton's orbit precesses forward relative to Neptune's spin with a period of about 678 Earth years (4.1 Neptunian years),^[3][4] making its Neptune-orbit-relative inclination vary between 127° and 180° and past, to 173°. That inclination is currently 130°; Triton's orbit is now near its maximum departure from coplanarity with Neptune's.

Triton is in synchronous rotation with Neptune; it keeps one face oriented toward the planet at all times. Its equator is almost exactly aligned with its orbital plane.^[20] At the present time, Triton's rotational axis is about 40° from Neptune's orbital plane, and hence at some point during Neptune's year each pole points fairly close to the Sun, almost like the poles of Uranus. As Neptune orbits the Sun, Triton's polar regions take turns facing the Sun, resulting in seasonal changes as one pole, then the other, moves into the sunlight. Such changes have recently been observed.^[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_%28moon%29#Orbit_and_rotation

In any case, it's fantasy. I think GRRM probably did some pretty good 'surface' research, but he's no astronomer, so it's probably not necessary to look very deeply into it, to look for real world occurrences to compare it too. As in many other instances I think GRRM took his information from here and there, mixed it all together and sort of took out what ever worked for him -- adding a dash of imagination to it.

[Waters Gate]

The Maesters can't even calculate the circumference of the world they live on, or atleast we have no such information, this while this was actually known in our own history from ancient times.

Again i want to point to the fact that the viewpoint of the maesters is limited. And to add to this, we don't even know how limited, but much depends on how much up north there observations are made. The more up north the maesters make their observations, the more area of the south hemisphere that doesn't get covered and is left unobserved.

We don't know where the equator is. Astronomical observations that could determine the rough location of the equator are not made in the sense that any person even living in the "equatorial zone" would see at some parts of the year the sun move along the north rather than the south, yet there is no mention of such an observation being made, which lends to think that even the summer islands is some distance north of the "equatorial zone", or basicly above the tropic of cancer. It makes me believe that Westeros is further north than people suspect, that the climate witnessed in the south might not nessecarily be so much because the tropic is there, or that the actual climate at the tropic is something humans would easily endure as a result, as if all people live more up north but the planet is gennerally a bit "warmer" too.

Things get observantly weird too when getting near the equator. One of the most curious passage's i read was where Tyrion was aboard that ship to Slavers bay and was Passing Valyria or what was left of it. Tyrion was completly dissoriented by the position of objects and their appearance in relation to the time he thought he was at and the bearing he was going, for it seemd to tyrion that positions were of and therefore he asked "what time of day is this?".

Maybe there is a "seldomly observed" object that passes mostly along the southern hemisphere and is difficult to observe in the northenr hemisphere?

[Mithras]

Since no change of constellations was reported between the North and Dorne, they are at the same hemisphere. In fact, most of the known world seems to be at the same hemisphere because even in Asshai, there is no mention of change of constellations. The ecuator is likely to be somewhere in the middle of Sothoryos.

[J. Stargaryen]

Does anybody know what a Cheshire cat moon is? It's a late stage crescent moon that appears to be smiling. According to the OP one of the moons, probably a/the black one, was destroyed by Lightbringer-the-comet. Further, the OP calls this moon an "elf moon," while noting that the CotF serve as ASoIaF's version of elves.

Well, not too long before Robert's Rebellion there was in infamous outlaw gang called the Kingswood Brotherhood. One of their members was the notorious Smiling Knight. As I stated above, certain types of moons can be described as smiling. But this character is not just smiling, he's a knight. Smiling = moon, Knight = night. So, not only can the SK be read as a stand in for the OP's proposed moon (of) night/black moon, it also happens to fit neatly with the the "elf moon" description as well, since the Smiling Knight was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood; Children of the Forest.

The Smiling Knight briefly crossed swords with young Jaime Lannister. The OP also mentioned lion-sun symbolism. So what do we have here? The symbolic sun and moon battling to a standstill. But then Ser Arthur Dayne comes along with Dawn. And the OP says that Dawn and the red comet(s) are both versions of Lightbringer. And he posits that the comet version of LB destroyed the black, elf moon. The Smiling Knight didn't fare any better. As above, so below. He was even bleeding from a dozen wounds before he died.

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he’d performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner’s life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he’d held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand… the outlaw’s longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. “It’s that white sword of yours I want,” the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. “Then you shall have it, ser,” the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. - ASoS, Jaime VIII

[Equilibrium]

First of all great thread, magnificent OP, truly things like these make the waiting bearable.

Let me add that Martin wrote SF in the past and fairly good SF at that and I am almost certain he mentioned wrecked moons of planets somewhere, but don't hold me to it. What is certain is that he has knowledge of astronomy.

Could the whole SOIAF refer to song of comet (ice) and Sun (fire) among other things....

George sneaks in a little pot-shot at wealthy people when Arya sees the Lion of Night: "rich men preferred the Lion of Night..."

Because greedy people worship the devil. Heh. Nice one.

Maybe simple connection of wealth and Lannisters, maybe even link of gold to LON, sun is golden so connection of LON and sun. Because frankly morality play motifs are not something Martin does.

And what about Moonsingers, they must be connected to this whole LN and second moon business especially if we recall how important songs are in ending LN, with COTF (called singers) who help defeat Others and end LN in Northern myth and Rhoynar myth:

Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

[White Ravens]

Not at all, it's come up before, though I think the number of days was less than 30 when it was calculated in another thread. What I disagree with is the idea that the orbit is in anyway "normal." A normal orbit requires some observances of the moon in morning, day, and late afternoon hours... rather than only at night.

Technically true, but the fact that no characters have observed the moon in daylight hours and commented on it does not mean that it isn't there.

For the record, I'm no astronomer either. But one of the languages I teach utilizes an extremely complicated lunar calendar system, so I had to familiarize myself with the lunar cycle in some considerable detail.

Honestly, I think we may have to give GRRM a pass on this one. Either it is simply an oversight, or a matter of creative license. I only brought it up because, strictly speaking, the moon needs to make an appearance at all times of day and night due to the relationship of the planet with the sun and its satellite. And, because Planetos' moon is "only seen at night" this leads me to believe that either:

1. Planetos is not part of a heliocentric solar system, or:

Planetos' "moon" is actually a planet, or:

Magic is at work in Lunar Cycles, as it is in the Seasons, or:

Oversight/creative license.

The moon is always referenced as being in the night sky, but that doesn't mean that it isn't present during daylight hours. It just doesn't matter as much in the daytime when it is less dramatic. And from a storytelling perspective GRRM has likely been including references to the moon during night scenes just to help establish mood and time. I would also like to note that Westeros is a medieval society with candles and lanterns for light sources at night. They essentially lack light pollution and the night sky would be very dramatic and filled with far more stars than most modern humans can imagine. In simpler times in our own history the phases of the moon were important because the moon was bright enough during its full phase to aid in travel and harvest. Because of this people would be much more conscious of the moon in the night sky.

Isn't the idea of the theory that there was once a second moon, that doesn't exist anymore? If Planetos is bigger than our planet, follows that the moons orbit would take longer at equal distance (and equal resonance) from Planetos as our moon to earth...

GRRM has never specifically said how long a 'moon's turn' is in westeros, though it probably isn't much longer than moon phases in real world...pregnancies last 'nine moons' I think?

In any case....I don't understand your objections tbh, concerning the existence of a second moon...even if I do agree that it seems unlikely -- the orbit argument isn't really an argument at all, imo.... for ex. IO, Ganymede and Europa all have different orbits around Jupiter, 'IO's Phase' is shorter than Europa's, that is shorter than Ganymede -- because Ganymede is furthest away.... While Ganymede orbits once, IO orbits four times around Jupiter....it has an 42.5 hours orbit, while Ganymede takes 7 days and three hours....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_%28moon%29

Saturn has many, many satellites as well and some big ones....Enceladus takes 32.9 hours to complete its orbit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enceladus

The point here, is just to show that as long as we know nothing about Planetos and its satellite(s) we certainly can't say that this and that is impossible. A 'moon' can have an orbit of roughly a day and a half, and probably less -- but I don't have the time right know to look it up.

...and for all we know, Westeros's moon is like Triton:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_%28moon%29#Orbit_and_rotation

In any case, it's fantasy. I think GRRM probably did some pretty good 'surface' research, but he's no astronomer, so it's probably not necessary to look very deeply into it, to look for real world occurrences to compare it too. As in many other instances I think GRRM took his information from here and there, mixed it all together and sort of took out what ever worked for him -- adding a dash of imagination to it.

I agree that we can't state that this or that is impossible and that is why I used the word unlikely regarding geosynchronous orbits. :) But I do like discussing this stuff. You mentioned some moons in our own solar system that orbit much faster than our own moon and they orbit Jupiter and Saturn which are both far more massive than earth. That suggests to me that there is a relationship between the mass of a planet and the orbital speed of its natural satellites. Planetos is larger than Earth, so maybe it has more mass and therefore its moon orbits faster.

[Greymoon]

I agree that we can't state that this or that is impossible and that is why I used the word unlikely regarding geosynchronous orbits. :) But I do like discussing this stuff. You mentioned some moons in our own solar system that orbit much faster than our own moon and they orbit Jupiter and Saturn which are both far more massive than earth. That suggests to me that there is a relationship between the mass of a planet and the orbital speed of its natural satellites. Planetos is larger than Earth, so maybe it has more mass and therefore its moon orbits faster.

The speed of orbit is determined, from what I understand, by the gravity/gravitational influence of the planet and it's satellite, and by their distance to each other, and the presence of other celestial objects near by...

Gravity (also called gravitation) is a natural phenomenon by which all physical bodies attract each other. Gravity gives weight to physical objects and causes them to fall toward one another.

In modern physics, gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity (proposed by Einstein) which describes gravity as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime. For most situations gravity is well approximated by Newton's law of universal gravitation, which postulates that the gravitational force of two bodies of mass is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. [...]

On the other hand, gravity is the dominant force at the macroscopic scale, that is the cause of the formation, shape, and trajectory (orbit) of astronomical bodies, including those of asteroids, comets, planets, stars, and galaxies. It is responsible for causing the Earth and the other planets to orbit the Sun; for causing the Moon to orbit the Earth; for the formation of tides; for natural convection, by which fluid flow occurs under the influence of a density gradient and gravity; for heating the interiors of forming stars and planets to very high temperatures; for solar system, galaxy, stellar formation and evolution; and for various other phenomena observed on Earth and throughout the universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity

found a video, that explains what would happen if the moon was to disappear...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VEiQ16I4XQ

One can indeed imagine, that Planetos's second moon helped to regulate the planet's orbit, it's rotation, axe inclination and, climate -- that it was a force to 'counter balance' the sun's gravity...

[Mychel_Redfort]

The moon is always referenced as being in the night sky, but that doesn't mean that it isn't present during daylight hours. It just doesn't matter as much in the daytime when it is less dramatic. And from a storytelling perspective GRRM has likely been including references to the moon during night scenes just to help establish mood and time.

But when almost every time moonrise is mentioned it's placed after sunset, it becomes harder to imagine occurrences when the moon could be spotted in daylight. I've found more examples since my last post on the subject :

From Game Prologue :

Twilight deepened. The cloudless sky turned a deep purple, the color of an old bruise, then faded to black. The stars began to come out. A half-moon rose. Will was grateful for the light.

From Game 25 :

The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

From Game 42 :

By the time their bellies were full, the stars had come out and a half-moon was rising over the mountains. Tyrion spread his shadowskin cloak on the ground and stretched out with his saddle for a pillow.

From Storm 07 :

A stone bounced down the slope, disturbed by a passing hoof, and Jon saw Ghost turn his head at the sudden sound. He had followed the riders at a distance all day, as was his custom, but when the moon rose over the soldier pines he'd come bounding up, red eyes aglow.

From Dance 12 :

Out in the yard, night was settling over the Dreadfort and a full moon was rising over the castle's eastern walls.

From Feast 20 :

The ground was soft from rain, but even so it took the fool the rest of the day to dig down deep enough. Night was falling by the time he was done, and his hands were bloody and blistered. Brienne sheathed Oathkeeper, gathered up Dick Crabb, and carried him to the hole.

()

Podrick helped her lower Nimble Dick into his hole. By the time they were done the moon was rising. Brienne rubbed the dirt from her hands and tossed two dragons down into the grave.

From Dance 32 :

Yet Lord Ramsay had decreed a feast, so feast they must. Trestle tables were set up in Stout's hall, an ox was slaughtered, and that night as the sun went down the empty-handed hunters ate roasts and ribs, barley breed, a mash of carrots and pease, washing it all down with prodigious quantities of ale.

()

The moon was rising over the wooden walls of Barrowton when they stepped outside. Reek could hear the wind sweeping across the rolling plains beyond the town. It was less than a mile from Barrow Hall to Harwood Stout's modest keep beside the eastern gates.

From Dance 41 :

The first flakes came drifting down as the sun was setting in the west. By nightfall snow was coming down so heavily that the moon rose behind a white curtain, unseen.

From Dance 71 :

As the world darkened, Dany settled in and closed her eyes, but sleep refused to come. The night was cold, the ground hard, her belly empty.

()

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep.

This last one is interesting, it's the only one with Dany and it's placed in the Dothraki Sea, not at the same longitudes as Westeros.

And I also found one counterexample :

From Clash 68 :

The moon was rising behind one mountain and the sun sinking behind another as Jon struck sparks from flint and dagger, until finally a wisp of smoke appeared. Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead cry pine needles.

That may be the only spotting of the moon in daylight, soon before sunset. But it's when Jon is in the Skirling Pass, far north, and maybe beyond the arctic circle. Do the astronomy amateurs here believe it could be a reason for this exception ?

[Waters Gate]

That may be the only spotting of the moon in daylight, soon before sunset. But it's when Jon is in the Skirling Pass, far north, and maybe beyond the arctic circle. Do the astronomy amateurs here believe it could be a reason for this exception ?

It's a pitty we don't know what phaseof moon to see if the time corresponds with the normal hours for that phase.

The cheshire/horned moon was also spotted far more north than it should be spotted. If a cheschire/wet moon is what GRRM means with a "horned moon", then there was an instance where it was spotted north of the wall, which is rather not the place to see a wet moon. Other places were riverlands, Vale and Kingslanding.

There might still be a second moon? I know, you'd think it would be spotted before, but i guess via some weird trajectory's, objects rotation of the earh close to 1 day, and limited p.o.v from the planet, it might be that there is a moon which can only seldomly be seen from westeros. the thing that it needs to move along some weird trajectory on the solar plane and with a certain speed for it to be only seldomly seen from Westeros, but otoh if you would see an actual horned moon near the north pole then it would kinda need to be a moon with a weird trajectory compared to our own moon.

[Modesty Lannister]

Does anybody know what a Cheshire cat moon is? It's a late stage crescent moon that appears to be smiling. According to the OP one of the moons, probably a/the black one, was destroyed by Lightbringer-the-comet. Further, the OP calls this moon an "elf moon," while noting that the CotF serve as ASoIaF's version of elves.

Well, not too long before Robert's Rebellion there was in infamous outlaw gang called the Kingswood Brotherhood. One of their members was the notorious Smiling Knight. As I stated above, certain types of moons can be described as smiling. But this character is not just smiling, he's a knight. Smiling = moon, Knight = night. So, not only can the SK be read as a stand in for the OP's proposed moon (of) night/black moon, it also happens to fit neatly with the the "elf moon" description as well, since the Smiling Knight was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood; Children of the Forest.

The Smiling Knight briefly crossed swords with young Jaime Lannister. The OP also mentioned lion-sun symbolism. So what do we have here? The symbolic sun and moon battling to a standstill. But then Ser Arthur Dayne comes along with Dawn. And the OP says that Dawn and the red comet(s) are both versions of Lightbringer. And he posits that the comet version of LB destroyed the black, elf moon. The Smiling Knight didn't fare any better. As above, so below. He was even bleeding from a dozen wounds before he died.

Very nice.

[MaesterSam]

Wow, cool thread! Definitely some very interesting propositions going on here. I'll start by addressing some smaller points, while I become more familiar with the over-arching theory. Nice work, Lucifer!

I think the primary strength in the OP is the connecting of the Quratheen moon myths with the myth of Azhor Ahai, which I think is strongly supported in Salador Sans version of the forging of Lightbringer as Lucifer has shown.

I like the connection between the second moon and the LN and by extension, the Bloodstone Emperor. That stone had to come from somewhere, and the second moon is a nice possibility. The stone is also magical, and apparently the meteor shower correlated with the birth of dragons. Likely near Asshai.

I assume the OP's theory will eventually get to the strange black stone having come down in the meteor shower? :devil:

Nissa Nissa may not translate too moon moon, it probably translates to second moon. As the symbolism would relate to the second moon being destroyed not both moons.

The other moon though if I am not mistaken was scared.

“It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.”

“The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue.”

3 circles.

“The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart,”

Not the maid but the mother is chosen. Why?

Because moon moon may mean second moon or child moon. Nissa was probably pregnant. And there is the problem. Because as you go into the world book it tells you when Azor broke the world he got a sword but no new child was born. No new ruler.

Say it all the time and I will say it again, unity of opposition.

Maiden and Lion = God Emperor

Sun and Moon = Dragons

Azor and Nissa = Lightbringer

More likely than not depending on perspective in one way or another they all end in with Dragons. A person, a sword (dragon steel), or a dragon. Even that God Emperor of Yi Ti. In Dany's wake the dragon vision she sees them. Cheering her on.

Though before the comet, the comet something else came first. The Bloodstone. These cycles repeat, why did they build the 5 forts along the grey waste? It's a cold dead place. What could scare you enough to build 1000 foot high walls along a dead waste land?

Then you got the bloodstone and that story mirrors the Dance of the Dragons. And then you got the Long night. But fire pushed it back and fire took the world and Valyria rose. Then Valyria fell. Then the Others returned and then the dragons returned and it all more than likely goes back to a stone. A stone dropped in a pond if you would and the ripples spread out.

Hope some of that helps.

I do agree especially with the bolded part. The Five Forts seem so very ancient, and Asshai is said to be a city older than time. This makes me think the abandoned black stone structures predate the LN.

Are you suggesting there have been at least two long night type events? An interesting thought, for sure. In fact, multiple LNs would result in multiple "dawn ages" - the times after the LNs, when the planet awakes again and the handful of survivors begin anew, with almost no memory of those who came before them.

Her dad is the “Evenstar” too, which is hugely significant. Gallon of Morne is significant, and that’s a tale from Tarth.

For those who think Ned’s sword might have been Lightbringer, or one of the two ‘Lightbringer swords” that I think existed, then Brienne is even more important, because she’s killing people with Lightbringer in front of weirwood trees... signifiant? Yes, I would say so.

Interesting also that the sigil of Tarth is 2 suns and 2 moons. A few more facts from the WB:

The Sapphire Isle, as some call it, is ruled by House Tarth of Evenfall Hall—an old family of Andal descent that boasts of ties to the Durrandons, the Baratheons, and more recently to House Targaryen. Once kings in their own right, the Lords of Tarth still style themselves “the Evenstar,” a title that they claim goes back unto the dawn of days.

I was really hoping for some connection to the Daynes, but no such luck.

[Mychel_Redfort]

There might still be a second moon? I know, you'd think it would be spotted before, but i guess via some weird trajectory's, objects rotation of the earh close to 1 day, and limited p.o.v from the planet, it might be that there is a moon which can only seldomly be seen from westeros. the thing that it needs to move along some weird trajectory on the solar plane and with a certain speed for it to be only seldomly seen from Westeros, but otoh if you would see an actual horned moon near the north pole then it would kinda need to be a moon with a weird trajectory compared to our own moon.

Wouldn't Jon have noticed if the moon here had not been the same than the usual one ? Or rangers of the Night's Watch who did range in the far North ? It's already hard to think there could still be a second moon, but it's even harder to imagine nobody noticed she was different.

[Bryaugh]

Ha! That's awesome. You know what else he was thinking about?

THUNDARR.

You guys are gonna trip on this, I've been holding it back. Hat tip to Durran D in this find:

http://youtu.be/LhAobPugvsk

Ha! I remember Thundaar. I loved that show when I was a kid. Interesting to see it linked to ASoIaF.

Great OP too!