The Hierarchy of the Others

[239JMFL34109]

Scientifically speaking Comets are called "The dirty ice balls of space"

that are burning as the fly around the sun...

[The Dragon has three heads]

Would GRRM fall back on the vampire trope though?

I've always been of the mind that the Lord Other was a vampire but assumed That was too

Simple. The curse to me screams vampirism, by choice, for power and long life as but at the expense of humanity. Makes me think the blood stone emperor may have been the first?

[Voice]

Would GRRM fall back on the vampire trope though?

I've always been of the mind that the Lord Other was a vampire but assumed That was too

Simple. The curse to me screams vampirism, by choice, for power and long life as but at the expense of humanity. Makes me think the blood stone emperor may have been the first?

Quite. People like to tout our author as the supreme usurper of tropes, but he's far from beyond the use of them. One only need look at the Maggie the Frog prophecy to see how tropish he can get ;)

He loves tropes, and they abound throughout. Now, with that being said, he does like to toy with them, bend and re-form them, so the end result tends to be unexpected. Like, Ser Gregor Frankenstein or Gandalf the Greenseer...

[The Dragon has three heads]

Well exactly, thats why to me it seems logical to go there

[Voice]

Agreed. They are cold, inhuman, supposedly feed their minions blood, and die from being stabbed with a stake made from a natural material. They also raise the dead. The parallels abound.

[The Dragon has three heads]

In your mind is this individual is their own species or a blessed/cursed/diseased ancient human(oid)?

I like to think it's tied up with the Blood stone emperor but there's Not heaps to support it.

[LmL]

In your mind is this individual is their own species or a blessed/cursed/diseased ancient human(oid)?

I like to think it's tied up with the Blood stone emperor but there's Not heaps to support it.

You're seeing a link between the Bloodstone Emperor and the Nights King, or a theoretical "Great Other?"

[Voice]

In your mind is this individual is their own species or a blessed/cursed/diseased ancient human(oid)?

I like to think it's tied up with the Blood stone emperor but there's Not heaps to support it.

I lean towards the latter: a blessed/cursed/diseased ancient and old, inhuman, yet formerly human.

The timeline itself is a clue in this instance, I believe.

Dawn Age

• Prehistory Before the coming of men: The lands of Westeros are inhabited by a mysterious race of diminutive humanoid creatures known as the children of the forest, as well as giants and other magical creatures.
• ca.-12,000 The First Men invade Westeros: A human ethnic group from Essos, the First Men, invades Westeros by crossing the Arm of Dorne, bearing weapons of bronze. In a futile attempt to end the invasion, the children use magic to shatter the land-bridge, creating the island chain known as the Stepstones. However, the First Men are able to reinforce by ship, leading to generations of warfare over the land.
• The First Men are more numerous, larger, stronger, and more technologically advanced than the children, who try to resist the invaders using their magic and obsidian weapons. It proves unsuccessful, however: the First Men gradually push deeper and deeper into Westeros, establishing hundreds of petty kingdoms.
• ca.-10,000 Signing of the Pact: After years of warfare, the First Men and children of the forest come to a standstill and finally agree to a peaceful coexistence, signing the Pact on the Isle of Faces. This pact gives the First Men dominion over the open lands and lets the children keep control over the forested areas. In time, the First Men adopt the worship of the old gods of the forest.

Age of Heroes

• ca.-10,000 Age of Heroes: An era during the history of Westeros, which would be named so later for the great men and women who live in the years of peace and prosperity following the forging of the Pact. The Pact endures for nearly four thousand years, and in that time, the children of the forest and the First Men grow closer. In time, the First Men set aside many of their cultural differences to embrace the ways and customs of the children of the forest. With the exception of the Drowned God of the Iron Islands and the Lady of the Waves and Lord of the Skies of the Three Sisters, the gods of the children become those of the First Men.
• Many of the noble houses of Westeros today trace their lineage back to the Age of Heroes. This was the time when grand historical figures are said to have lived, such as Brandon the Builder, founder of House Stark; Lann the Clever, founder of House Lannister, who winkled Casterly Rock from the Casterlys; or Garth Greenhand, founder of House Gardener of the Reach. Also during this era the Storm Kings arise in the stormlands: a line with figures such as the founding Durran, supposed builder of Storm's End; and the Grey King, first king of the Iron Islands.
• ca.-8,000 The Long Night: In this time, night seems to last for a generation, and the longest, coldest and darkest winter descends on Westeros. The ice spreads down from the north, and under the cover of darkness, the Others invade Westeros from the uttermost north, marching, killing and raising up the dead to be their servants in unlife and nearly destroying all men in Westeros. The Long Night comes to an end with the Battle for the Dawn. The children and the First Men unite to defeat the Others with dragonglass weapons, with the Night's Watch pushing them back into the frozen reaches of the Far North.^[1] Legendary figures from this time include the last hero and Azor Ahai, who wields a great sword of fire, Lightbringer. Building of the Wall: With the Others defeated, Bran the Builder, with the aid of giants, the First Men, and perhaps the children of the forest, raises the Wall, a monumental fortification of ice and ancient magic, to shelter the realms of men from the menaces of the north. The Sworn Brotherhood of the Night's Watch guards the Wall. It is said that Bran the Builder also built Winterfell, became the first King in the North, and founded House Stark.
• The Night's King: Not long after the Wall is complete, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch breaks his oath. He is seduced by an Other woman from beyond the Wall, declares himself the Night's King, and rises in rebellion with the Watch as his personal army. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities are committed, of which tales would be told in the North even after several millennia. The Starks of Winterfell and the King-beyond-the-Wall, Joramun, join forces to defeat the Night's King and thus restore honor to the Watch. This is the same Joramun who also finds the Horn of Winter, which he is said to use to awaken giants from the earth.

Andal Invasion

• ca.-6,000 Foundation of the Faith: In the hills of Andalos on Essos, a new religion takes shape, called the Faith of the Seven. Supposedly, the supreme deity of the Andals appears to them, guiding them into their invasion of Westeros.
• The Andal Invasion: The Andals cross the narrow sea and make landfall on its eastern shore at the Fingers, on what would one day become the Vale of Arryn. They come under the banner of the Faith of the Seven, with seven-pointed stars carved into their chests, wielding weapons of steel. They fight both the First Men and the children of the forest, sweeping the land much like the First Men did thousands of years before. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea from Essos is disputed; some sources indicate six thousand years ago,^[2] the True History states it was four thousand years ago, and some maesters claim it was two thousand years ago.^[3]
• For centuries the Andals war with the First Men and the children in an attempt to drive them out. One by one, the six southron kingdoms fall and the weirwoods are burned. Only the Kingdom of the North remains under the rule of the First Men, in large part due to the strategically located fortress of Moat Cailin resisting multiple attempts to take it and thereafter serving as the door between North and South. Even though the North remain secure, the children of the forest begin their slow withdrawal from the lands of men, retreating deeper into their forests and north of the Wall.
• ca.-4,000 The Iron Islands fall to the Andals, ending the first line of kings ruling there uncontested for over a thousand years, originating from Urron Greyiron. Unlike in the other regions, however, Andals are assimilated to the native beliefs of the Old Way and the Drowned God.

We have several events occurring eight to twelve thousand years ago, all separated by two millennia.

12k years ago, First Men invade.

10k years ago, the Pact is made.

8k years ago:

• the long night, lasting a generation, occurs
• the Others come for the first time
• the Last Hero sets out into the dead lands with his twelve companions
• Bran the Builder consolidates: the Night's Watch, the Wall, Winterfell, House Stark
• the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch glimpses his Pale Woman
• Night's King is just a man by day, but reigns by night
• the long night ends

It is my belief that this last group of events are contemporaneous, rather that successive. In fact, I lean toward the idea that several of these men are one and the same individual. Possibly all of them.

LH=NK is a theory I've long subscribed to and advocated. Old Nan tells us he was a Stark. We're told each Lord Commander built the Wall higher than he found it. If the 13th Lord Commander took office once his 12 predecessors died in the cold dead lands, and each of them had but little time to build the Wall higher... this 13th LC named "Stark" may well have also been called Brandon. BtB=LH=NK is obviously a long shot, but far from impossible.

It is also my belief that Westeros is a living continent. At the heart of it are Weirwoods. The roots of countless weirwoods form the foundation of the continent, and a network (web) of memory that hold the land itself together: from the sands of Dorne to the Lands of Always Winter.

In cutting down weirwoods, and burning them, First Men triggered an autoimmune response, 12k years ago. The land healed over the next 2k years, and the Pact was made 10k years ago. 2k years after that, the long night (sleep) begins. We fight colds in our sleep. I believe the Others were that autoimmune response. Perhaps they are late in the coming but what is time to a tree?

The reason I say they "were" that autoimmune response, is that I believe they began as a healing process, but didn't stay that way. Just as Mel has corrupted Stannis' once noble justice mission with her shadows, the Pale Woman did the same for the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

I believe that together, they militarized and corrupted the Others. Now, rather than being the antibodies the realm needs, they are a cancer.

[Voice]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I believe they've been waiting up there, north and north and north, for all this time.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

And:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

[Voice]

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal

Hey, it's another milkglass reference!

[LmL]

The wall is frequently a sword metaphor. Happens a few times.

I like everything you just said - one of my ideas is that the Others are an auto-immune response to the presence of the twisted fire magic of the destroyed fire moon on Planetos. The fire moon is destroyed and crashed into the heart of summer near Asshai, turning it into the heart of shadow. Dark fire magic, under the command of the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai, is the plague on the earth. The fire magic came from space - so what's the earth going to do? Produce ice beings. And then as you say, they lingered too long and don't have a purpose anymore.

As for the timeline, two potential deceptions we have been told. First, everything before the Andals came was oral traditions and runic records. Now oral traditions can be very accurate when related through song and meter and sacred tradition, like the Vedas of Vedic India. No such thing occurred in Westeros. So everything before the Andals is slightly suspect, chronologically. Second, EVERYTHING before the Long Night is totally up for grabs. Most of that stuff happened, in some form, but the timeline is total hearsay. Any of that stuff could have been thousands of years before the LN or during the LN. When was the pact signed? We don't know. Sometime before the Andals. I wouldn't be sure the pact was before the LN at all. We have no way of knowing.

[LmL]

I definitely agree that Westerosis connected via tree and the whole continent is alive. That's why the Valyrians stick to outposts in the narrow sea - Driftmark, Claw Isle, Dragonstone - because they weren't connected (and thus weren't warded). I think the cotf are the ones who dealt the dragons a mortal blow via skinchanging and have warded Westeros from dragons until Aegons invasion (triggered by the defiling of the Gods Eye puts by black Harren).

[Voice]

The Fire imagery is completely possible, and fitting, but rather than a comet, I see it being a torch. A torch brought down by a first hand, on a felled weirwood.

I must disagree regarding the timelines, and the Westerosi lack of Vedas. You are forgetting the sole purpose of weirwoods. The trees keep watch, and the North Remembers. Indigenous recordkeeping in Westeros is superior to all other forms of historical documentation. Those who sing the song of Earth can see green... The greenseer can look into historical events and relive them.

Not a single word of Westerosi history has been forgotten. Not a single silence. All are recorded and live in the roots of the continent.

[LmL]

Right, so the cotf know, but the Maesters write the history. And they don't know. They contradict themselves all over the place and have clear political agendas.

[LmL]

The entire concept of the "Dawn Age" and "Age of Heroes" was made up by the maesters after the fact. We're the maesters even literate before the Andals came? That's a confusing question. The maesters themselves tell us men were not lettered until the Andals. They never refer to information from the cotf; they don't even believe weirwoods are magical.

Edit: I would believe anything the cotf say about Westeros as fact. Maesters... not so much. The cotf don't tell us much, and they certainly never claim to have done the Hammer of the Waters, for example.

[Voice]

Agreed. I'm not siding with the Citadel, but the wetnurses :)

And unless we believe Brynden Rivers is the first human to enter the weirnet, countless First Men before him have also witnessed the truth... not just cotf. Modern generations are of course ignorant, but it wasn't long ago they still valued the Wall.

[LmL]

What do you see as a torch being brought down on a broken weirwoods? The comet strike? That's what I am saying - they interpreted it as the grey King stealing fire from the storm god, because the fire came from the sky and plunged into the water.

[LmL]

I'd believe whatever BR says about history too.

[Voice]

What do you see as a torch being brought down on a broken weirwoods? The comet strike? That's what I am saying - they interpreted it as the grey King stealing fire from the storm god, because the fire came from the sky and plunged into the water.

An actual torch. Lol. That's what we get for going too deep. When we try to talk superficially, it doesn't work as well anymore haha

I'm imagining Dany, bringing her torch down on Drogo's funeral pyre. But instead of a beautiful young girl, it's a hard, bearded man. Instead of dragon's eggs, it's weirwood. Instead of hatching fast-growing "fire made flesh," the wood plants the slow-growing seed that will become "sidhe made of ice."

What is time to a weirwood?

[Crippledtank]

Okay so trying to take this is the only question I have (probably hard to answer) but Now that we have an idea of an Other hierarchy does that translate or is it similar to the westeros I lords

OTHER - WW - WIGHT

BATTLE COMMANDERS - KNIGHTS - MEN AT ARMS

I always assumed the impending WW invasion would be nothing but WW and wights just charging through westeros with no plan or strategy but after reading this I'm leading more towards the WW being not much different from how general westerosi armies go to battle (van guards, flanks and what have you) I guess if we knew more of the long night it'd help.

Basically will the OTher invasion be well planned and strategised or will it be nothing but a shit storm of cold dead bodies?