The Hierarchy of the Others

[LmL]

The Joghwin were stone giants in the Bones Mountains in Essos. They were twice as tall as Westerosi giants, and I believe we know this to be true because they left their bones. The Joghos Nhai killed them all.

I'm sure Mithras has the quote for that.

As for the Old Ones, I suspect their involvement at Lorath as well as Leng, as the descriptions of the underground cities at both places match very closely. The golden eyes thing really seems meant to suggest some sort of cotf involvement - either the Old Ones are the opposites of the cotf, like the light elves / dark elves Nose myth idea, of the Old Ones are related somehow through cross breeding.

I hadn't connected the dark gods under the ground to the Old Ones, but yeah, it makes sense.

[LmL]

Hey, so I am just listening to the prologue of AGOT. What happened to those 8 wildlings? There was no blood on the snow, either when their dead bodies were seen or when the rangers came upon the empty clearing. The first ranger thinks they froze to death - and the lack of blood says this is what happened. Ser Waymar bleeds when stabbed by the Others, so those wildlings weren't stabbed. Did the Others kill the. With the ice mist? And where did the bodies go?

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not trying to block anything out wolfmaid. Land bridges occur in real life as well. They also disappear in real life. It is a very natural occurrence.

Now, that being said, the cotf may well have been "praying" for that "very natural occurrence" to occur. Whether or not their prayers were answered, or had any effect on the land bridge remains to be seen.

And I still don't see how this matters. Unless you are claiming the Others can destroy land bridges by calling upon some Hammer of the Ices, I fail to see how this is even relevant.

No, we don't know this to be so. We do not know for a fact that the cotf indeed did cause the Breaking of the Arm, nor the Flooding of the Neck. We did not see those things happen.

Others, we've seen, so of course we can refute that they are merely a rogue band of wildlings. We've seen them and they are clearly not human. This, we know.

We have no more evidence for the existence of the children's Hammer than we do for snarks and grumpkins. GRRM could well alter this landscape, as he has Bran plugged into the weirnet now, but until we actually know the cotf caused the Breaking of the Arm or the Flooding of the Neck, we simply do not know.

What? No it doesn't. It doesn't say that in any way.

We're friends, my Bay Area Compadora. So please do not take this wrong, but I want you to read my lips: THERE ARE NO GREENSEERS IN THE LANDS OF ALWAYS WINTER. None. Zip. There aren't even trees in the Lands of Always Winter. Let alone people living in them.

I pulled the actual quotes from the Worldbook for you, wolfmaid. It DOES NOT say they lived IN the Lands of Always Winter.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

There are none who can say with certain knowledge when the world began, yet this has not stopped many maesters and learned men from seeking the answer. Is it forty thousand years old, as some hold, or perhaps a number as large as five hundred thousandor even more? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered. We can be certain that the world was far more primitive, howevera barbarous place of tribes living directly from the land with no knowledge of the working of metal or the taming of beasts. What little is known to us of those days is contained in the oldest of texts: the tales written down by the Andals, by the Valyrians, and by the Ghiscari, and even by those distant people of fabled Asshai. Yet however ancient those lettered races, they were not even children during the Dawn Age. So what truths their tales contain are difficult to find, like seeds among chaff. What can most accurately be told about the Dawn Age? The eastern lands were awash with many peoplesuncivilized, as all the world was uncivilized, but numerous. But on Westeros, from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, only two peoples existed: the children of the forest and the race of creatures known as the giants.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Yet no matter the truths of their arts, the children were led by their greenseers, and there is no doubt that they could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea. They made their homes simply, constructing no holdfasts or castles or cities. Instead they resided in the woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills. It is said that, in the woods, they made shelters of leaves and withes up in the branches of treessecret tree "towns."

It's like saying Californians can be found from the Colorado River to the shores of the Pacific Ocean. That doesn't mean we live in the ocean, or in the river. After all, we're not fish.

It means we live between them.

Ah, yes. Well see, to me, that's all the difference in the world. That's a matter of Life and Death.

Sure, they also observe from the eyes of their familiars. They can observe with a raven's senses. They can observe with a direwolf's senses. They can even observe by using a Hodor's senses.

The parallels are clearly there.

But in the case of Others, and white walkers, they are doing far more than 'observing.' They are living. And they are not living as artifacts, like the female cotf greenseer in Bran's raven, or the fading consciousness of Varamyr inside of One-Eye. In GRRM's own words, they aren't even dead:

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful think, oh the Sidhe made of ice, something like that a different sort of life inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Unless you are talking about wights. If you are, then let me address that.

While on the most superficial level, it is true that something is animating the corpses we call "wights." This is not true for Summer, Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggydog, or Grey Wind. The Starks do not animate their wolves. The direwolves are alive, animate themselves through normal biological and nervous functions, and the Stark children bond with them so intimately, they become a part of the wolf's consciousness. They aren't using the wolves as meat puppets, they become the wolf itself.

Something is using the wights as meat puppets. There is no bond.

Like a remote controlled toy, when energized, the lights come on and they start moving. You don't see how this is completely different from the warg-bond and skinchanging??? It's beyond apples and oranges, this is an apple tree and an icicle.

Well, in the case of Greenseers, we've only met one. So it is a one to one comparison. Unless you know of some other greenseers we should be examining, in order to better gauge their doings.

So, no, I can't say all greenseers are doing the exact same thing. And I haven't ever said that. Looking at the one greenseer we've seen, it appears they sit in the roots of a tree and look at historical events, and fly around inside ravens. They may be able to do much and more, but so far, we haven't seen that.

Am I homogenizing them? How can I when there is only one to choose from? There is no evidence your other type of greenseer even exists.

Just because you have manufactured them, and can see them at the helm, governing these Cold Winds, doesn't mean we all can see them too.

There's bones in the ground. That's where they belong. Bones buried in the earth seem bizarre to a crazy person like Mel.

I want you to go back to Bran's vision where he saw "dreamers" impaled on their ice spires see the similarities between them and the dreamers in the cave.

1.Weirwoods need NOT be the only thing to be connected to as a conduit.

2.No one has ventured into the Lands of always Winter to see if Weirwoods in what state are there.

You are completely omitting text it says exactly where GS who lead the children reside.Nuff of that.

Mel isn't seeing bones Voice she is seeing skulls have seen that same vision with respect to Jon and to the Wights attack on Hardome.Contextually it means Death.

Based on the knowledge of the interview GRRM's answer does not contradict my statement.His description is point on to what the Others aka what a cold Greenseer"s body might look like. Hell BR is more tree than man.He is taking on what he's connected to the Others are air and ice im holding to that.

I get your thinking im just saying its to one to one which makes missing things to easy. So because the :Greenseers broke the land bridge and the Others didn't break a land bridge as well using ice they aren't of the same kind? Yeah no you are homogenizing them.All Thenns are Free Folk, but not Free Folk are Thenns remember that thinking about this

We will have to remain divided and when Winds of Winter come out we will be having this discussion again for sure.

[Voice]

Hey, so I am just listening to the prologue of AGOT. What happened to those 8 wildlings? There was no blood on the snow, either when their dead bodies were seen or when the rangers came upon the empty clearing. The first ranger thinks they froze to death - and the lack of blood says this is what happened. Ser Waymar bleeds when stabbed by the Others, so those wildlings weren't stabbed. Did the Others kill the. With the ice mist? And where did the bodies go?

Yes. I'm thinking this is Weaponized Cold. It seems to be what they employ against larger groups.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Yes. I'm thinking this is Weaponized Cold. It seems to be what they employ against larger groups.

I agree. And they were reborn as wights as Tormund's son.

[Voice]

I agree. And they were reborn as wights as Tormund's son.

Indeed. Most likely Thistle's fate as well.

[Mithras]

“Something’s coming.” Varamyr sat crosslegged on the half-frozen ground, his wolves circled restlessly around him. A shadow swept over him, and Jon looked up to see the eagle’s blue-grey wings. “Coming, from the east.”

When the dead walk, walls and stakes and swords mean nothing, he remembered. You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me.

Harma scowled. “East? The wights should be behind us.”

“East,” the skinchanger repeated. “Something’s coming.”

“The Others?” Jon asked.

Mance shook his head. “The Others never come when the sun is up.”

It is pretty clear that the wildlings considered a wight attack under the sun possible, given that their only objection to it was their direction of attack, not the sun. When the Others were suspected as the incomers (and their attack can be expected from any direction it seems), only then they told that the Others never come when the sun is shining.

[Mithras]

He remembered turning in a circle, lost, the fear growing inside him as it always did. There were dogs barking and horses trumpeting, but the snow muffled the sounds and made them seem far away. Sam could see nothing beyond three yards, not even the torches burning along the low stone wall that ringed the crown of the hill. Could the torches have gone out? That was too scary to think about. The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .

Sam made no distinction between the Others and white walkers according to the stories he had heard.

[Voice]

“Something’s coming.” Varamyr sat crosslegged on the half-frozen ground, his wolves circled restlessly around him. A shadow swept over him, and Jon looked up to see the eagle’s blue-grey wings. “Coming, from the east.”

When the dead walk, walls and stakes and swords mean nothing, he remembered. You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me.

Harma scowled. “East? The wights should be behind us.”

“East,” the skinchanger repeated. “Something’s coming.”

“The Others?” Jon asked.

Mance shook his head. “The Others never come when the sun is up.”

It is pretty clear that the wildlings considered a wight attack under the sun possible, given that their only objection to it was their direction of attack, not the sun. When the Others were suspected as the incomers (and their attack can be expected from any direction it seems), only then they told that the Others never come when the sun is shining.

Nah, I think it's far simpler than that. Winter is Coming and Varamyr spoke urgently and mysteriously to people traumatized by wight attacks, and said, "Something's coming." That's pretty fucked up. It would be like yelling, "Watch out for that!" to a veteran who has just returned home from the war. The enemy is far away, but they'd jump all the same.

And it's not like Harma believed it, she scowled. That's not the face of someone who believes V6, that's the look of a woman of the Free Folk saying you're full of it, and, "East? The wights should be behind us."

In other words, Harma is saying, "You're wrong, skinchanger. Not only is it daylight, but the wights are behind us."

They are camped just beyond the Wall at this moment, so yes, of course, the wights are behind them unless some black brothers are stupid enough to carry some through the gate again.

Jon is the only one there unseasoned enough to think it might actually be the Others. Mance corrects him. And Mance is correct. The Others have never come during daylight.

He remembered turning in a circle, lost, the fear growing inside him as it always did. There were dogs barking and horses trumpeting, but the snow muffled the sounds and made them seem far away. Sam could see nothing beyond three yards, not even the torches burning along the low stone wall that ringed the crown of the hill. Could the torches have gone out? That was too scary to think about. The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .

Sam made no distinction between the Others and white walkers according to the stories he had heard.

Many characters do not. In fact, in this passage, Samwell lists the many loose terms people have for these inhuman creatures that go bump in the night:

The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means:

• Others.
• The white walkers of the wood,
• the cold shadows,
• the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .

Everything under the Others qualifies as "the Others." In fact, as much as I like the idea of actual ice spiders, Ice Spiders may just be another name for them as well. Cold shadows is certainly an apt term for them, given their reflective armor and body temperature. The term "white walkers" is very descriptive: they're white and they walk. It is only Old Nan and Bran that draw a distinction between "the Others" that first came in the long night, and "white walkers." Some semantic fog is understandable after 8000 years, in my opinion.

Also, don't forget, GRRM made the same distinction as Bran and Old Nan:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others¹, raise cold legions of the undead² and the neverborn³ and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Thus:

1. the original Others of legend are creating

2. wights, hosts of the slain

3. white walkers, the neverborn (changelings)

[LmL]

I think Mithras' interpretation is correct, Voice, you are adding the "not only is it daylight" part in when you rephrase: "You're wrong, skinchanger. Not only is it daylight, but the wights are behind us." But that's not what she says, she says "East? The wights should be behind us." Daylight does not come up until AFTER Jon mentions the Others. If wights don't come in the day, she would have mentioned that FIRST, before thinking about direction. Mithras interpretation seems more logical and less convoluted.

I think this is one of the best pieces of evidence for your hierarchy, I absolutely agree with your interpretation here:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others1, raise cold legions of the undead2 and the neverborn3 and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Thus:

1. the original Others of legend are creating
2. wights, hosts of the slain
3. white walkers, the neverborn (changelings)

[Voice]

I think Mithras' interpretation is correct, Voice, you are adding the "not only is it daylight" part in when you rephrase: "You're wrong, skinchanger. Not only is it daylight, but the wights are behind us." But that's not what she says, she says "East? The wights should be behind us." Daylight does not come up until AFTER Jon mentions the Others. If wights don't come in the day, she would have mentioned that FIRST, before thinking about direction. Mithras interpretation seems more logical and less convoluted.

I think this is one of the best pieces of evidence for your hierarchy, I absolutely agree with your interpretation here:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others1, raise cold legions of the undead2 and the neverborn3 and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Thus:

1. the original Others of legend are creating

2. wights, hosts of the slain

3. white walkers, the neverborn (changelings)

I think Harma's scowl takes care of my "only in daylight" interpretation. It remains to be seen of course, but thus far, we've yet to see a wight, white walker, or Other in daylight.

[Mithras]

I think Harma's scowl takes care of my "only in daylight" interpretation. It remains to be seen of course, but thus far, we've yet to see a wight, white walker, or Other in daylight.

I think we have seen that.

Icicles hung from the brown briar of his beard, and his mustache was a lump of frozen snot, glittering redly in the light of sunset.

He glanced to the west, where the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly through the trees, like the glow of a distant fire.

Bran blinked back a tear and felt it freeze upon his cheek. Coldhands took Hodor by the arm. “The light is fading. If they’re not here now, they will be soon. Come.”

Every gust of wind filled the air with fine white powder that shone like glass in the last light of day.

Now the wights emerged from the snow and attacked the party. Then we have this:

Fifty yards. If he could drag himself fifty yards, they could not get him. Damp seeped through his gloves as he clutched at roots and rocks, crawling toward the light. A little farther, just a little farther. Then you can rest beside the fire.

The last light had vanished from amongst the trees by then. Night had fallen. Coldhands was hacking and cutting at the circle of dead men that surrounded him. Summer was tearing at the one that he’d brought down, its face between his teeth. No one was paying any mind to Bran. He crawled a little higher, dragging his useless legs behind him.

So, the wights started their attack while the last light of the sun was still amongst the trees.

[LmL]

I'd have to say the fact they attacked just as the last light was fading is probably a point in VOTFM's favor, or at least ambiguous. Other than that, Voice seems to be right that we haven't seen wights during the day. The dead men Jon and company found in book one were limp until nightfall... this could have been a ploy to get carried through the wall, but it fits with them lying dormant in the day. The wights certainly don't MELT in the sun like a vampire though, because those two already had blue star eyes and black hands and stuff when they were found, lying still, iirc.

[Mithras]

I'd have to say the fact they attacked just as the last light was fading is probably a point in VOTFM's favor, or at least ambiguous. Other than that, Voice seems to be right that we haven't seen wights during the day. The dead men Jon and company found in book one were limp until nightfall... this could have been a ploy to get carried through the wall, but it fits with them lying dormant in the day. The wights certainly don't MELT in the sun like a vampire though, because those two already had blue star eyes and black hands and stuff when they were found, lying still, iirc.

Their eyes were burning blue. So, they were 100% wights but they were not moving. I do think that wights cannot see well in the sun light (they seem to have some sort of infrared camera to detect blood in the living things and the sunlight probably distorts their resolution).

However, I think the wights can attack and move under the sunlight but that makes them even more disadvantaged. So, they do not attack under the light unless it is a very important risk they could take (which was the case for Bran's party).

I also believe that the Wall does not stop the wights. They can climb and pass over the Wall but they didnot do that yet because the Others would not spend even a single wight without having a good reason to do so. Storming the Wall with wights means heavy losses and the Others will do that when the magic is dispelled so that they too can pass through the Wall.

Now you might remind me of Coldhands and how he didnot want to pass through the Black Gate but that was an extremely unique case.

He is not a wight.

It is a magical gate.

He might have scared Bran if he passed through the Wall and meet them at the south.

etc.

[Voice]

I think we have seen that.

Icicles hung from the brown briar of his beard, and his mustache was a lump of frozen snot, glittering redly in the light of sunset.

He glanced to the west, where the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly through the trees, like the glow of a distant fire.

Bran blinked back a tear and felt it freeze upon his cheek. Coldhands took Hodor by the arm. “The light is fading. If they’re not here now, they will be soon. Come.”

Every gust of wind filled the air with fine white powder that shone like glass in the last light of day.

Now the wights emerged from the snow and attacked the party. Then we have this:

Fifty yards. If he could drag himself fifty yards, they could not get him. Damp seeped through his gloves as he clutched at roots and rocks, crawling toward the light. A little farther, just a little farther. Then you can rest beside the fire.

The last light had vanished from amongst the trees by then. Night had fallen. Coldhands was hacking and cutting at the circle of dead men that surrounded him. Summer was tearing at the one that he’d brought down, its face between his teeth. No one was paying any mind to Bran. He crawled a little higher, dragging his useless legs behind him.

So, the wights started their attack while the last light of the sun was still amongst the trees.

I think I responded to you in another thread on this same topic. Darkness had fallen. The wights did not attack until darkness had fallen. GRRM goes out of his way to demonstrate this, in this passage. He draws out the setting of the sun for quite some time. But as we all know, once the sun it setting, light fades. The wights attack the very instant sunlight is gone. The chapter opens with the setting of the sun:

---

Bran II ADWD

Something about the way the raven screamed sent a shiver running up Bran's spine. I am almost a man grown, he had to remind himself. I have to be brave now.

But the air was sharp and cold and full of fear. Even Summer was afraid. The fur on his neck was bristling. Shadows stretched against the hillside, black and hungry. All the trees were bowed and twisted by the weight of ice they carried. Some hardly looked like trees at all. Buried from root to crown in frozen snow, they huddled on the hill like giants, monstrous and misshapen creatures hunched against the icy wind. "They are here."

The ranger drew his longsword.

"Where?" Meera's voice was hushed.

"Close. I don't know. Somewhere."

The raven shrieked again. "Hodor," whispered Hodor. He had his hands tucked up beneath his armpits. Icicles hung from the brown briar of his beard, and his mustache was a lump of frozen snot, glittering redly in the light of sunset.

"Those wolves are close as well," Bran warned them. "The ones that have been following us. Summer can smell them whenever we're downwind."

"Wolves are the least of our woes," said Coldhands. "We have to climb. It will be dark soon. You would do well to be inside before night comes. Your warmth will draw them." He glanced to the west, where the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly through the trees, like the glow of a distant fire.

"Is this the only way in?" asked Meera.

"The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole."

That was all he had to say. Not even Hodor could climb down into a sinkhole with Bran heavy on his back, and Jojen could no more walk three leagues than run a thousand.

Meera eyed the hill above. "The way looks clear."

"Looks, " the ranger muttered darkly. "Can you feel the cold? There's something here. Where are they?"

"Inside the cave?" suggested Meera.

"The cave is warded. They cannot pass." The ranger used his sword to point. "You can see the entrance there. Halfway up, between the weir-woods, that cleft in the rock."

"I see it," said Bran. Ravens were flying in and out.

Hodor shifted his weight. "Hodor."

"A fold in the rock, that's all I see," said Meera. "There's a passage there. Steep and twisty at first, a runnel through the rock. If you can reach it, you'll be safe."

"What about you?"

"The cave is warded."

Meera studied the cleft in the hillside. "It can't be more than a thousand yards from here to there."

No, thought Bran, but all those yards are upward. The hill was steep and thickly wooded. The snow had stopped three days ago, but none of it had melted. Beneath the trees, the ground was blanketed in white, still pristine and unbroken. "No one's here," said Bran, bravely. "Look at the snow. There are no footprints."

"The white walkers go lightly on the snow," the ranger said. "You'll find no prints to mark their passage." A raven descended from above to settle on his shoulder. Only a dozen of the big black birds remained with them. The rest had vanished along the way; every dawn when they arose, there had been fewer of them.¹ "Come, " the bird squawked. "Come, come. "

The three-eyed crow, thought Bran. The greenseer. "It's not so far," he said. "A little climb, and we'll be safe. Maybe we can have a fire." All of them were cold and wet and hungry, except the ranger, and Jojen Reed was too weak to walk unaided.

"You go." Meera Reed bent down beside her brother. He was settled in the bole of an oak, eyes closed, shivering violently. What little of his face could be seen beneath his hood and scarf was as colorless as the surrounding snow, but breath still puffed faintly from his nostrils whenever he exhaled. Meera had been carrying him all day. Food and fire will set him right again, Bran tried to tell himself, though he wasn't sure it would. "I can't fight and carry Jojen both, the climb's too steep," Meera was saying.

"Hodor, you take Bran up to that cave."

"Hodor." Hodor clapped his hands together.

"Jojen just needs to eat," Bran said, miserably. It had been twelve days since the elk had collapsed for the third and final time, since Coldhands had knelt beside it in the snowbank and murmured a blessing in some strange tongue as he slit its throat. Bran wept like a little girl when the bright blood came rushing out. He had never felt more like a cripple than he did then, watching helplessly as Meera Reed and Coldhands butchered the brave beast who had carried them so far. He told himself he would not eat, that it was better to go hungry than to feast upon a friend, but in the end he'd eaten twice, once in his own skin and once in Summer's. As gaunt and starved as the elk had been, the steaks the ranger carved from him had sustained them for seven days, until they finished the last of them huddled over a fire in the ruins of an old hillfort.

"He needs to eat," Meera agreed, smoothing her brother's brow. "We all do, but there's no food here. Go. "

Bran blinked back a tear and felt it freeze upon his cheek. Coldhands took Hodor by the arm. "The light is fading. If they're not here now, they will be soon. Come."

Wordless for once, Hodor slapped the snow off his legs, and plowed upward through the snowdrifts with Bran upon his back. Coldhands stalked beside them, his blade in a black hand. Summer came after. In some places the snow was higher than he was, and the big direwolf had to stop and shake it off after plunging through the thin crust. As they climbed, Bran turned awkwardly in his basket to watch as Meera slid an arm beneath her brother to lift him to his feet. He' s too heavy for her. She' s half-starved, she' s not as strong as she was. She clutched her frog spear in her other hand, jabbing the tines into the snow for a little more support. Meera had just begun to struggle up the hill, half-dragging and half-carrying her little brother, when Hodor passed between two trees, and Bran lost sight of them. The hill grew steeper. Drifts of snow cracked under Hodor's boots. Once a rock moved beneath his foot and he slid backwards, and almost went tumbling back down the hill. The ranger caught him by the arm and saved him. "Hodor," said Hodor. Every gust of wind filled the air with fine white powder that shone like glass in the last light of day.²Ravens flapped around them. One flew ahead and vanished inside the cave. Only eighty yards now, Bran thought, that's not far at all.

Summer stopped suddenly³, at the bottom of a steep stretch of unbroken white snow. The direwolf turned his head, sniffed the air, then snarled. Fur bristling, he began to back away.

"Hodor, stop," said Bran. "Hodor. Wait. " Something was wrong. Summer smelled it, and so did he. Something bad. Something close. "Hodor, no, go back."

Coldhands was still climbing, and Hodor wanted to keep up. "Hodor, hodor, hodor," he grumbled loudly, to drown out Bran's complaints. His breathing had grown labored. Pale mist filled the air⁴. He took a step, then another. The snow was almost waist deep and the slope was very steep. Hodor was leaning forward, grasping at rocks and trees with his hands as he climbed. Another step. Another. The snow Hodor disturbed slid downhill, starting a small avalanche behind them.

Sixty yards. Bran craned himself sideways to better see the cave. Then he saw something else. "A fire!" In the little cleft between the weirwood trees was a flickering glow, a ruddy light calling through the gathering gloom. "Look, someone—"

Hodor screamed. He twisted, stumbled, fell.

Bran felt the world slide sideways as the big stableboy spun violently around. A jarring impact drove the breath from him. His mouth was full of blood and Hodor was thrashing and rolling, crushing the crippled boy beneath him.

Something has hold of his leg. For half a heartbeat Bran thought maybe a root had gotten tangled round his ankle … until the root moved. A hand, he saw, as the rest of the wight came bursting from beneath the snow.

Hodor kicked at it, slamming a snow-covered heel full into the thing's face, but the dead man did not even seem to feel it. Then the two of them were grappling, punching and clawing at each other, sliding down the hill. Snow filled Bran's mouth and nose as they rolled over, but in a half a heartbeat he was rolling up again. Something slammed against his head, a rock or a chunk of ice or a dead man's fist, he could not tell, and he found himself out of his basket, sprawled across the hillside, spitting snow, his gloved hand full of hair that he'd torn from Hodor's head.

All around him, wights were rising from beneath the snow.

Two, three, four. Bran lost count. They surged up violently amidst sudden clouds of snow.⁴ Some wore black cloaks, some ragged skins, some nothing. All of them had pale flesh and black hands. Their eyes glowed like pale blue stars.

Three of them descended on the ranger. Bran saw Coldhands slash one across the face. The thing kept right on coming, driving him back into the arms of another. Two more were going after Hodor, lumbering clumsily down the slope. Meera was going to climb right into this, Bran realized, with a sick sense of helpless terror. He smashed the snow and shouted out a warning.

Something grabbed hold of him.

That was when his shout became a scream. Bran filled a fist with snow and threw it, but the wight did not so much as blink. A black hand fumbled at his face, another at his belly. Its fingers felt like iron. He' s going to pull my guts out.

But suddenly Summer was between them. Bran glimpsed skin tear like cheap cloth, heard the splintering of bone. He saw a hand and wrist rip loose, pale fingers wriggling, the sleeve faded black roughspun. Black, he thought, he' s wearing black, he was one of the Watch. Summer flung the arm aside, twisted, and sank his teeth into the dead man's neck under the chin. When the big grey wolf wrenched free, he took most of the creature's throat out in an explosion of pale rotten meat.

The severed hand was still moving. Bran rolled away from it. On his belly, clawing at the snow, he glimpsed the trees above, pale and snow-cloaked, the orange glow between.

Fifty yards. If he could drag himself fifty yards, they could not get him. Damp seeped through his gloves as he clutched at roots and rocks, crawling toward the light. A little farther, just a little farther. Then you can rest beside the fire.

The last light had vanished from amongst the trees by then. Night had fallen. Coldhands was hacking and cutting at the circle of dead men that surrounded him. Summer was tearing at the one that he'd brought down, its face between his teeth. No one was paying any mind to Bran. He crawled a little higher, dragging his useless legs behind him. If I can reach that cave …

---

Again, GRRM has gone out of his way to show us that the wights were dormant beneath the light of the sun (just like Othor and Jafer Flowers), and then suddenly and violently animated the very instant the light vanished.

Just look at this progression. Below is every single reference to light, or lack thereof, in the passage above: dusky quotes in dark red/brown, Leaf's torch in green, and the orange glow in orange. Placed in the order written:

i. Shadows stretched against the hillside

ii. glittering redly in the light of sunset

iii. the light of the setting sun could be seen dimly

iv. The light is fading. If they're not here now, they will be soon.

v. Every gust of wind filled the air with fine white powder that shone like glass in the last light of day

[summer stopped suddenly]

vi. A fire!

vii. a flickering glow, a ruddy light calling

viii. through the gathering gloom

ix. the orange glow between

x. crawling toward the light

xi. Then you can rest beside the fire

xii. The last light had vanished

xiii. from amongst the trees by then

xiv. Night had fallen

I think the progression speaks for itself, given our experiences with dusk. Night is falling. v. in particulary, drives this home.

Notice when Summer stops suddenly. It is immediately after the line mentioning "the last light of day."

Just after Summer stopped suddenly, Leaf appears to offer light in the gathering gloom with her torch.

---

I noticed a few other things that I marked with footnotes:

1. STRANGENESS!!! What's going on with the ravens? Why have there been fewer of them every dawn? Are they the canaries in the coal mine? Are they simply returning to the cave ahead of the others (seems unlikely)? Are the Others killing them at night? (Mayhaps with weaponized cold? ...ice arrows? ...ice webs? ...ooh i like that, maybe they're getting caught in ice webs that disappear at Dawn, like the dew in daylight.)
2. THE COLD FORGE!!! This one is for you . Every gust of wind [bellows] filled the air ['displacement of oxygen'] with fine white powder [their version of 'smoke'] that shone like glass [need I say more ;)] in the last light of day [the cold forge is dark like the long night]. The Cold Forge is dark as darkness itself. The blade from it, on the Other (brothers') hand, need not be dark. The Others' longswords run with moonlight. Now, contrast that forge and sword with the bright light of the Hot Forge that gives us the dark (sister) dragonsteel blades that ripple with darkness... yin and yang.
3. Summer stopped suddenly. The wights animated suddenly. At the exact same point in time, due to the same (astronomical ;)) event: night.
4. They surged up violently amidst sudden clouds of snow... Cold Forge complete, wolfmaid's "Cold Mists" as well... :cheers: wolfmaid!

I'd have to say the fact they attacked just as the last light was fading is probably a point in VOTFM's favor, or at least ambiguous. Other than that, Voice seems to be right that we haven't seen wights during the day. The dead men Jon and company found in book one were limp until nightfall... this could have been a ploy to get carried through the wall, but it fits with them lying dormant in the day. The wights certainly don't MELT in the sun like a vampire though, because those two already had blue star eyes and black hands and stuff when they were found, lying still, iirc.

Indeed. Dormant by day. Eyes blue, but not glowing. By day, a change in eye color was noted with Othor and Jafer Flowers, but their eyes were not glowing. There were other, observable peculiarities by light of day, such as powdered blood (frozen fire?), no rot, no decay, but a queer cold smell was evident. Also, while Ghost (alone) was not afraid of them, the hounds and horses were. The brothers had to drag the corpses back to Castle Black themselves, as the horses would not go near them.

Once darkness fell, their eyes lit up like stars and they started moving, just like the wights under the snow outside of BR's cave.

It's a good thing for them that damned sunlight won't be around much longer :devil:

Their eyes were burning blue. So, they were 100% wights but they were not moving.

If you're talking about Othor and Jafer, you're wrong. Their eyes had turned blue by the time they were found, but they were not yet "burning blue." The men talk about them because it's strange their eyes are blue now, when they didn't remember them being blue before. If they were burning/glowing, surely that would've been even more cause for alarm, right? Here's the quote,

Jon VII AGOT:

"This … this is all wrong," Sam Tarly said earnestly. "The blood … there's bloodstains on their clothes, and … and their flesh, dry and hard, but … there's none on the ground, or … anywhere. With those … those … those …" Sam made himself swallow, took a deep breath. "With those wounds … terrible wounds … there should be blood all over. Shouldn't there?"

Dywen sucked at his wooden teeth. "Might be they didn't die here. Might be someone brought 'em and left 'em for us. A warning, as like." The old forester peered down suspiciously. "And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore."

Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

I do think that wights cannot see well in the sun light (they seem to have some sort of infrared camera to detect blood in the living things and the sunlight probably distorts their resolution).

They can't see well in the light because they're corpses in the light. Infrared? Really? ;) burning blue doesn't scream infrared to me....

However, I think the wights can attack and move under the sunlight but that makes them even more disadvantaged. So, they do not attack under the light unless it is a very important risk they could take (which was the case for Bran's party).

Uh, with all due respect, Mithras, no. They don't move under sunlight at all. Never have. Never will.

I also believe that the Wall does not stop the wights. They can climb and pass over the Wall but they didnot do that yet because the Others would not spend even a single wight without having a good reason to do so. Storming the Wall with wights means heavy losses and the Others will do that when the magic is dispelled so that they too can pass through the Wall.

This makes zero sense.

1. If the Wall doesn't stop wights, why haven't there been wight attacks south of the Wall aside from the two the Night's Watch escorted through the Wall?
2. Nimble living men, wildling raiders, using ropes and pickaxes were shrugged off the Wall. Those that made it to the top nearly died. If you think a clumsy wight can pull that off without the advantage of dexterity and a living brain, you have a very impressive imagination.
3. "the Others would not spend even a single wight without having a good reason to do so" What? Do you really believe this? Wights are a renewable resource. People are dying like flies north of the Wall. If every wight kills only one living person, their numbers never decrease. As we've seen, they are quite deadly. Their numbers are increasing exponentially. The Others don't have to spend them. They're free!
4. As far as "having a good reason to do so" goes, isn't killing the Night's Watch a good enough reason? Look at the Fist. Look at it again. Now ask yourself why they didn't attack the Wall in the same way, if, as you say, they can "climb and pass over" it.
5. Storming the Wall is a human tactic. The Others are not human. And I don't think they fear magic.

Now you might remind me of Coldhands and how he didnot want to pass through the Black Gate but that was an extremely unique case.

He is not a wight.

It is a magical gate.

He might have scared Bran if he passed through the Wall and meet them at the south.

etc.

Scared Bran? Honestly??? Surely you're joking...

I mean no disrespect Mithras, but I'm hearing a lot of personal fanfiction and not much textual support for your assertions.

And it wasn't exactly an "extremely unique" case. Bran II ADWD, again...

"Is this the only way in?" asked Meera.

"The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole."

That was all he had to say. Not even Hodor could climb down into a sinkhole with Bran heavy on his back, and Jojen could no more walk three leagues than run a thousand.

Meera eyed the hill above. "The way looks clear."

"Looks, " the ranger muttered darkly. "Can you feel the cold? There's something here. Where are they?"

"Inside the cave?" suggested Meera.

"The cave is warded. They cannot pass." The ranger used his sword to point. "You can see the entrance there. Halfway up, between the weir-woods, that cleft in the rock."

"I see it," said Bran. Ravens were flying in and out.

Hodor shifted his weight. "Hodor."

"A fold in the rock, that's all I see," said Meera. "There's a passage there. Steep and twisty at first, a runnel through the rock. If you can reach it, you'll be safe."

"What about you?"

"The cave is warded."

[Voice]

Jon V AGOT:

Pyp let fly a whoop and thrust his sword into the air. Ser Alliser fixed him with a reptile stare. "They will call you men of Night's Watch now, but you are bigger fools than the Mummer's Monkey here if you believe that. You are boys still, green and stinking of summer, and when the winter comes you will die like flies." And with that, Ser Alliser Thorne took his leave of them.

Like flies in a spider's web?

:devil:

[Lykos]

You are boys still, green and stinking of summer, and when the winter comes you will die like flies."

To me, this is the best arguement yet, to believe there might be real ice-spiders, though it could also pertain to Varys' web causing more harm than good "for the realm,for the children" ;).

[LmL]

I've noticed an awful lot of talk about green boys becoming Others, myself.

"Othor,” announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, “beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers.” He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. “They were Ben Stark’s men, both of them.” My uncle’s men , Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he’d pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here …

[WeaselPie]

Lots of twilight/evening references as noted. It also seems that the Others can start becoming active just at twilight, but aren't seen until full dark.

Of note is the unusually warm/humid weather when Jafer and Othor were found and brought back to Castle Black. So much happens in that chapter, but after Jon finds out about Ned, the weather gets steadily colder until Jon wakes up freezing.

Weirdly, Ghost had no problem with the immobile Jafar and Othor, but almost breaks down the door when Othor is heading up to Mormont's tower.

Othor breaks the neck of the guard but leaves Jon and Ghost alone in their unlocked room. Othor would have no problem killing Ghost, in fact he almost manages it during the fight. And strangest of all, wighted Othor attacks Jon by.. sticking his fingers down Jon's throat. Not breaking a neck like the guard or choking like Ghost.

I'm on a reread specifically about wight behavior, so I thought I'd throw that out there. Will add more when I can catch up with the thread and make sure I'm not repeating what someone already said.

[Angalin]

Closing for length.