The Hierarchy of the Others

[Voice]

whats to say our Others, or white walkers, arent the vengeful cut-down weirwoods that were desecrated? ;)

this is getting too out of hand, STAHP

Now you're on the right track Blaz ;)

The First Men put Weirwoods to Fire

The Weirwoods put First Men to Ice

[wolfmaid7]

Great stuff Wolfmaid. The White Walkers / pale shadows definitely seem connected to the trees in some way. Seems like a split occurred, long, long ago.

I believe there are actually separate Greenseers and certainly more than just BR and Bran. I believe the individual acting as CHs has that ability.I agree there is a connection and it is of the Greenseeing persuation.

:cheers:

But I'm not convinced of the wood walker : white walker connection... I see them more akin to the cotf... and can't help but notice the similarity between the Dothraki term, and the term "wood dancer.

Agreed. Wolfmaid disagrees on this point however, and not without good reason. Samwell's recital of the Fist is steeped in Other-ish imagery, yet he never clearly sees an Other, until Ser Puddles.

I should note that I use the term Others quite loosely, even though my hierarchy suggests distinct terms. The reason for this, rather than being distinct races, I see white walkers and Ancient Others being separated by rank more than anything else. I should probably flesh that out a bit more in the OP to be honest. It gets back to Bran's querulous correction of Old Nan...

For emphasis,the only think i believe Sam and Gren and all the others saw of the Fist were wights.I don't believe there were any wws on the Fist.When Puddles showed up that was the First time he "actually" saw a ww. I'm 100% positive had they been there,they in that condistion could have been seen at all.

There are surely no absurd details in this series. But I still don't see greenseers being tied to the Others. I'll get to this in my origin theory, but for now let me point out that greenseers predate the long night and the first (ancient) Others by countless millennia.

Of course, that could still mean some later branch went to the dark side, but I think not. Greenseers do little more than observe life, so far as we've seen.

The Others are quite the opposite in this regard, as they embody the cleansing harbinger of death that Winter forebodes. Also, the Others are a purely northern manifestation... all the tales agree. Greenseers are not. And again, quite oppositely, they thrive in the Green, whereas the Others thrive in cold dead frozen lands, where no green can survive.

Happy Beltane wolfmaid!

Neither Varamyr, nor any greenseer we've seen, exhibits one single ability that we've seen from the Others, white walkers, or wights.

There are parallels, of course. But parallels are absolutely everywhere, from crab soup to the Red Widow's jewelry.

I still say the force that moves, binds, and empowers the Others is completely unrelated to the Earthen Old Gods, and the manifestations of their power we see in greenseers, skinchangers, and greendreams.

This Icy, northern force is an entirely different beast, in my opinion.

I disagree here 100% and let me break it down.

1.Greenseers don't just observe life that is rather incorrect.

2. Incorrect that powers exhibited by "The Others" are not the same exhibted by the greenseers

"The greenseers employed their arts and tales say that they could call on the beasts of Marsh,forests and air to fight on their behalf:direwolves and monstorous Snowbears,cave lions,eagles,mammoths serpants and more WB,pg 6).

The only difference VOTFM is that clearly a cold greenseer is enthralling dead things vs limited that is the only difference.One is Summer oriented and the other is cold oriented.This isn't a parallel this is apple to apple with one being green and the other being red....They are still apples.

3.Voice when this is all over and i will tell you i told you so.Your "Ancient Others" are just greenseers and their powers manifesting.

4.You are also incorrect that Greenseers are "only" of Earth and green persuation.Please pay attention to bolded blue.

"Yet no matter the truths of their arts the Children were led by their Greenseers and they could be found from the LOAW to the shores of the Summer Sea WB pg 7

The Greenseers that live in "The LOAW were never destroyed because no forces never went there,so they are still there.From this one also gather that Greenseers were NOT only observers.Validated once more by:

a. The fact that BR is teaching Bran to take other skins,promising him that one day he will go beyond the trees.

b.Page 8 of the WB attributes the breaking of the arm to them(Greenseers).Page 237 expounds on it some more further validating that the GS are not only observers they get involved.

[LmL]

I'm with Wolfmaid here, but I think there's some semantic fog happening too. Voice, you said:

There are surely no absurd details in this series. But I still don't see greenseers being tied to the Others. I'll get to this in my origin theory, but for now let me point out that greenseers predate the long night and the first (ancient) Others by countless millennia.

Of course, that could still mean some later branch went to the dark side, but I think not. Greenseers do little more than observe life, so far as we've seen.

The Others are quite the opposite in this regard, as they embody the cleansing harbinger of death that Winter forebodes. Also, the Others are a purely northern manifestation... all the tales agree. Greenseers are not. And again, quite oppositely, they thrive in the Green, whereas the Others thrive in cold dead frozen lands, where no green can survive.

I agree with your contrast here. The Others, as they currently exist, are all the things you say. They did live for a thousand thousand years before the FM came. The logical proposal here is that sometime after the CotF began teaching the FM greenseeing, or after interbreeding to make it possible, a group of MEN who were greenseers discovered the heart of winter, and its presumed source of ice magic. Somehow, these greenseers became transformed into Others through ice magic. Now they are Others, acting like Others, or "ice" greenseers as Wolfmaid suggests. They do a frozen, dead copy of everything the greenseers do, as Wolfmaid points out.

However, I would not say "the Others are really just greenseers," as Wolfmaid said - they aren't greenseers as we know them. We are getting into semantics here, as Wolfmaid is proposing a different kind of greenseer - so even she is not saying the Others are the same as BR. They would be greenseers who were transformed, just as Melisandre is being transformed (her exact words) by the fire inside her. She has black blood, doesn't need to eat, etc. I suggest that the same thing is possible for ice magic - why wouldn't it be?

Voice, there is just so much stuff likening Others to Greenseers - I haven't even begun to unleash that body of evidence on you, but trust me, it is overwhelming. The Last Hero's group of 12 were all greenseers, I'm certain of that, and they all "died" somehow in the frozen north. There are detailed, chapter-long correlations of this idea. If I were you, I would not shut your mind to this relationship. We don't know exactly what the relationship is, but it is there, I promise you. Evolett knows, we've been back-channeling all that stuff.

Wolfmaid, you said:

I believe there are actually separate Greenseers and certainly more than just BR and Bran. I believe the individual acting as CHs has that ability. I agree there is a connection and it is of the Greenseeing persuasion.

Coldhands acts like a green seer. I've been shouting from the mountain tops about this - he smells rotten, cold =, and dead, just like all the other cold wights - but the lek is not afraid of him. Ravens are carrion eaters, so it's less shocking to see the ravens aren't afraid of him (though they do attack cold wights, we've seen). But the ravens actually flock to him, talk to him, listen to him, and obey him. The Elk too - it obeys him, taking the children along a specified path after CH separates to go kick some mutineer ass (and carve up a side of "ham" for Bran, Jojen, Meera and Hodor). Coldhands is acting like a greenseer. But he's dead. And somehow, no blue star eyes, and he has his soul, it seems

.

I don't buy the "BR is skinchanging CH as a meat sack" idea, at all. CH is doing his own thing.

Balzfemur's idea has merit:

whats to say our Others, or white walkers, arent the vengeful cut-down weirwoods that were desecrated?

The hypothetical transformation process for these rebel greenseers is totally up in the air. Since greenseers are connected to trees, it figures the tree is involved somehow. Does this have something to do with the petrified trees?

[LmL]

Has anyone read this?

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1lo3x7/spoilers_all_the_origin_and_identity_of_the_others/

It's a reddit thread making a case that the Others were men whom the CotF taught greenseeing, much like what we have been discussing.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm with Wolfmaid here, but I think there's some semantic fog happening too. Voice, you said:

I agree with your contrast here. The Others, as they currently exist, are all the things you say. They did live for a thousand thousand years before the FM came. The logical proposal here is that sometime after the CotF began teaching the FM greenseeing, or after interbreeding to make it possible, a group of MEN who were greenseers discovered the heart of winter, and its presumed source of ice magic. Somehow, these greenseers became transformed into Others through ice magic. Now they are Others, acting like Others, or "ice" greenseers as Wolfmaid suggests. They do a frozen, dead copy of everything the greenseers do, as Wolfmaid points out.

However, I would not say "the Others are really just greenseers," as Wolfmaid said - they aren't greenseers as we know them. We are getting into semantics here, as Wolfmaid is proposing a different kind of greenseer - so even she is not saying the Others are the same as BR. They would be greenseers who were transformed, just as Melisandre is being transformed (her exact words) by the fire inside her. She has black blood, doesn't need to eat, etc. I suggest that the same thing is possible for ice magic - why wouldn't it be?

Voice, there is just so much stuff likening Others to Greenseers - I haven't even begun to unleash that body of evidence on you, but trust me, it is overwhelming. The Last Hero's group of 12 were all greenseers, I'm certain of that, and they all "died" somehow in the frozen north. There are detailed, chapter-long correlations of this idea. If I were you, I would not shut your mind to this relationship. We don't know exactly what the relationship is, but it is there, I promise you. Evolett knows, we've been back-channeling all that stuff.

Wolfmaid, you said:

Coldhands acts like a green seer. I've been shouting from the mountain tops about this - he smells rotten, cold =, and dead, just like all the other cold wights - but the lek is not afraid of him. Ravens are carrion eaters, so it's less shocking to see the ravens aren't afraid of him (though they do attack cold wights, we've seen). But the ravens actually flock to him, talk to him, listen to him, and obey him. The Elk too - it obeys him, taking the children along a specified path after CH separates to go kick some mutineer ass (and carve up a side of "ham" for Bran, Jojen, Meera and Hodor). Coldhands is acting like a greenseer. But he's dead. And somehow, no blue star eyes, and he has his soul, it seems

.

I don't buy the "BR is skinchanging CH as a meat sack" idea, at all. CH is doing his own thing.

Balzfemur's idea has merit:

The hypothetical transformation process for these rebel greenseers is totally up in the air. Since greenseers are connected to trees, it figures the tree is involved somehow. Does this have something to do with the petrified trees?

Totally,and this is something i keep stressing about not only Semantics but more about the perception of the characters.They haven't put two and two together with what they are dealing with because most of them are not privy to the information we have or are to caught up in the tales to look at them logically.Humans in this story have a tendency to homogenize things and it is even clear in BR's statement to Bram concerning the COTF

"Those who you call Children of the Forest have yellow eyes but once in a while one has eyes green as moss" yada yada

Their own name for themselves are "Those who sing the song of earth."

From this we see BR's play on words and on knowledge available to Bran...what he knows.But we can gather that if their are those who sing the songs of Earth then their are others who sing different songs and not all of those who sing the song of Earth are of the kind that we would call COTF.

The title "Green"seer is most definitely the label the Earth singers give to their whatever Bran and BR are.

The one connected to ice may not be called "Green" seer though i use the term general myself.But you are right they aren't "Green" seers they are Others.

Look at this bit of visual,you remember Bran seeing other COTF enthroned as BR and he eventually became.They were called dreamers right impaled with the roots of the Weirwoods?

At its core what is the difference between the preceding and Bran seeing in his coma vision Dreamers impaled on their ice spires.Nothing just some are impaled with roots and others with ice.

That CH's is a "Green" seer....Totally!!! I believe this is true.

[LmL]

Interestingly....

House Goodbrother of Crow Spike Keep is a cadet branch of House Goodbrother with Crow Spike Keep as their seat[1] on the island of Great Wyk,[2] located within the Iron Islands region of Westeros.[1]

Goodbrother is significantbecasue they are the only house in the Iron Islands who doesn't claim Grey King descent - the descended from his elder brother, supposedly.

[Voice]

I believe there are actually separate Greenseers and certainly more than just BR and Bran. I believe the individual acting as CHs has that ability.I agree there is a connection and it is of the Greenseeing persuation.

For emphasis,the only think i believe Sam and Gren and all the others saw of the Fist were wights.I don't believe there were any wws on the Fist.When Puddles showed up that was the First time he "actually" saw a ww. I'm 100% positive had they been there,they in that condistion could have been seen at all.

I disagree here 100% and let me break it down.

I agree your greenseer scenario is plausible. I just prefer to view the Others as a completely different form of life and magic. I think it's subjective more than semantic. But I do split semantic hairs for a living, so I know I'm guilty as charged in that regard.

I also agree that Samwell (and most likely Grenn, but we have no way of knowing that) didn't see any Others/ww's at the Fist with his own two eyes. But, I think the brothers around him from the Shadow Tower did.

I also agree that the "weather" conditions they seem to create would make it difficult to get a positive ID on anyone, let alone someone with Predator-style body armor.

1.Greenseers don't just observe life that is rather incorrect.

We will have to agree to disagree methinks on greenseers. From the wiki:

A greenseer is the name for the wise men of the children of the forest who had magical abilities that included power over nature and prophetic visions.

Greenseers had the greensight and were wargs as well.^[1] The First Men believed that they were responsible for carving the faces into weirwood trees and stories describe the greenseers seeing through the faces of their weirwoods, influencing animal and plant life.^[2] As the tales go, they used their power to shatter the Arm of Dorne into the island chain of the Stepstones.^[3]

One in a thousand men is born a skinchanger and one skinchanger in a thousand is born a greenseer.^[4] It is also known that humans can be born greenseers just as they are born wargs.

The relationship between the greenseers of the children of the forest and the order of green men who protect the Isle of Faces in the God's Eye has not been specified. There is one greenseer left in the world - the Last Greenseer.

Greenseers see. That's what they do. While greenseers are wargs and skinchangers as well, their name and wisdom comes from their ability to see. We have never seen a greenseer raise the dead. Leaf's warning might mean that they can, or it might be a warning against dwelling on the past too much. I interpret it as the latter, you, the prior. Until more evidence is available, that's where we must remain.

2. Incorrect that powers exhibited by "The Others" are not the same exhibted by the greenseers

"The greenseers employed their arts and tales say that they could call on the beasts of Marsh,forests and air to fight on their behalf:direwolves and monstorous Snowbears,cave lions,eagles,mammoths serpants and more WB,pg 6).

The only difference VOTFM is that clearly a cold greenseer is enthralling dead things vs limited that is the only difference.One is Summer oriented and the other is cold oriented.This isn't a parallel this is apple to apple with one being green and the other being red....They are still apples.

Do greenseers wear armor that makes them difficult to see? Do greenseers have weapons that shatter steel? Do greenseers hunt and butcher men of the Night's Watch? Do greenseers ride dead animals? Do they ride any mounts at all? Do they change the weather? Do their eyes glow? Do they raise the dead? Do they create new forms of life from babes they find in the woods?

"The greenseers employed their arts and tales say that they could call on the beasts of Marsh,forests and air to fight on their behalf:direwolves and monstorous Snowbears,cave lions,eagles,mammoths serpants and more WB,pg 6).

Uh huh. They sure do. And we know exactly how this process works, thanks to Bran. Greenseers bond with beasts. They enter their mind with their own.

Some of these beasts even seem to initiate the bond.

The only difference VOTFM is that clearly a cold greenseer is enthralling dead things vs limited that is the only difference.One is Summer oriented and the other is cold oriented.This isn't a parallel this is apple to apple with one being green and the other being red....They are still apples.

Clearly? Is it? How do we know the means by which white walkers are created? Or the means by which wights are raised and controlled? We can guess. But that's all we can do at this point. We've absolutely no data at all to suggest it is a process that is anything at all like that of skinchanging.

The Others apparently raise the neverborn/ww's/CS. That itself is far different from anything we've ever seen a greenseer do.

Those who fall in battle to them are raised again as wights. This also is far different from anything we've ever seen a greenseer do.

Now might they have such abilities? Sure, I guess. But we haven't seen anything at all that demonstrates they do.

When Bran and BR's eyes start to glow like red and green lights at an intersection, I'll consider the powers might be related. If Coldhands/Bran/BR would have raised CH's elk from the dead to carry them onward to the cave, I would be all for what you are suggesting. If Coldhands was covered in magical earth armor and carried a sword of green ice, I'd buy into this. If Leaf brings BR a newborn baby, and wakes a green giant from the earth with it, I'll eat my words.

Until then, they remain completely autonomous.

3.Voice when this is all over and i will tell you i told you so.Your "Ancient Others" are just greenseers and their powers manifesting.

There is no way the Ancient Others are greenseers. I'm doubling down on that position.

If I have the book in my hands and it proves me wrong I will be so happy just to have the answers that I'll humbly congratulate you, admit defeat, and take you to a Giants or Niners game. How's that?

4.You are also incorrect that Greenseers are "only" of Earth and green persuation.Please pay attention to bolded blue.

"Yet no matter the truths of their arts the Children were led by their Greenseers and they could be found from the LOAW to the shores of the Summer Sea WB pg 7

Sorry, you're not gonna convince me the "greenseers" are not of the "green" persuasion. Please pay attention to the bolded green, wolfmaid ;)

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

There are none who can say with certain knowledge when the world began, yet this has not stopped many maesters and learned men from seeking the answer. Is it forty thousand years old, as some hold, or perhaps a number as large as five hundred thousand—or even more? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered. We can be certain that the world was far more primitive, however—a barbarous place of tribes living directly from the land with no knowledge of the working of metal or the taming of beasts. What little is known to us of those days is contained in the oldest of texts: the tales written down by the Andals, by the Valyrians, and by the Ghiscari, and even by those distant people of fabled Asshai. Yet however ancient those lettered races, they were not even children during the Dawn Age. So what truths their tales contain are difficult to find, like seeds among chaff. What can most accurately be told about the Dawn Age? The eastern lands were awash with many peoples—uncivilized, as all the world was uncivilized, but numerous. But on Westeros, from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, only two peoples existed: the children of the forest and the race of creatures known as the giants.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Yet no matter the truths of their arts, the children were led by their greenseers, and there is no doubt that they could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea. They made their homes simply, constructing no holdfasts or castles or cities. Instead they resided in the woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills. It is said that, in the woods, they made shelters of leaves and withes up in the branches of trees—secret tree "towns."

Did the cotf and their greenseers live under the shores of the Summer Sea? No? Well, they also didn't live in the Lands of Always Winter. They never have, never will, and do not today. BR's cave is pretty far north, but not that far. That far north, there are no more trees. No life at all.

Except for that Other form of life, of course.

The Greenseers that live in "The LOAW were never destroyed because no forces never went there,so they are still there.

What? Who?

Please, pray tell, who are these "Greenseers that live in The LOAW"?

There are no greenseers in the Lands of Always Winter. There aren't even trees there, let alone greenseers wedded to them.

From this one also gather that Greenseers were NOT only observers.Validated once more by:

a. The fact that BR is teaching Bran to take other skins,promising him that one day he will go beyond the trees.

b.Page 8 of the WB attributes the breaking of the arm to them(Greenseers).Page 237 expounds on it some more further validating that the GS are not only observers they get involved.

From what? There are no greenseers in the LOAW, so you can't exactly start drawing conclusions from that assumption. But for the sake of argument, I'll humor the suggestion.

How, pray tell, does this in any way demonstrate greenseers are NOT just observers?

Moving on to your points 'a' and 'b'...

a. Sure and what do they do with those skins? They see! LOL. Seriously though, until we see a wizened old Other teaching one of Craster's sons how to control a popsicle body, this just doesn't hold up. We have absolutely no idea what their process is like.

But we do know this, Greenseers deal with life. They thrive in places that support life. They inhabit these living trees. They bond with living animals. They sing the song of Earth. They endure through the seasons in one spot rooted to their eternal weirwoods that grasp the living Earth itself.

We also know that the Others deal with death. They thrive in the frozen, dead lands. They animate normally inanimate Ice. They animate dead beasts and men. Their voices are like the cracking of ice. They prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

b. I'll never understand why you use the Hammer as an example. If it is indeed a give the Greenseers possess, it isn't one that the Others possess, so it doesn't even qualify as a parallel. So yes, while it is said that the cotf and their greenseers broke the Arm of Dorne, we don't know that was truly the case. Do we? The author, of course, also provides us with an alternative scenario:

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Breaking

Most scholars do agree that Essos and Westeros were once joined; a thousand tales and runic records tell of the crossing of the First Men. Today the seas divide them, so plainly some version of the event the Dornish call the Breaking must have occurred. Did it happen in the space of a single day, however, as the songs would have it? Was it the work of the children of the forest and the sorcery of their greenseers? These things are less certain. Archmaester Cassander suggests elsewise in his Song of the Sea: How the Lands Were Severed, arguing that it was not the singing of greenseers that parted Westeros from Essos but rather what he calls the Song of the Sea—a slow rising of the waters that took place over centuries, not in a single day, and was caused by a series of long, hot summers and short, warm winters that melted the ice in the frozen lands beyond the Shivering Sea, causing the oceans to rise.

So this really cannot be used as evidence for the Other-Greenseer connection, as:

1. It isn't even a capability we've seen from the Others. As powerful as they are, they haven't yet shifted the Earth itself.
2. It isn't even a capability we've seen from a Greenseer.

[Voice]

I'm with Wolfmaid here, but I think there's some semantic fog happening too. Voice, you said:

There always is. And I'm thankful for it, else, I wouldn't have a job :)

I agree with your contrast here. The Others, as they currently exist, are all the things you say. They did live for a thousand thousand years before the FM came.

We agree.

The logical proposal here is that sometime after the CotF began teaching the FM greenseeing, or after interbreeding to make it possible, a group of MEN who were greenseers discovered the heart of winter, and its presumed source of ice magic.

This isn't entirely logical. Clearly, the cotf taught FM about the Old Gods, and likely, greenseeing. But the interbreeding idea is conjecture, not logic. I remain open to that possibility as well, and there are some nice threads on the subject, but it is far from being a foundational concept that we can then base further theories upon.

You say, "a group of MEN who were greenseers discovered the heart of winter, and its presumed source of ice magic."

I say, "presumably a group of men, who were presumably greenseers, presumably discovered the heart of winter, where presumably, a source of magic exists." ;)

Now they are Others, acting like Others, or "ice" greenseers as Wolfmaid suggests. They do a frozen, dead copy of everything the greenseers do, as Wolfmaid points out.

However, I would not say "the Others are really just greenseers," as Wolfmaid said - they aren't greenseers as we know them. We are getting into semantics here, as Wolfmaid is proposing a different kind of greenseer - so even she is not saying the Others are the same as BR. They would be greenseers who were transformed, just as Melisandre is being transformed (her exact words) by the fire inside her. She has black blood, doesn't need to eat, etc. I suggest that the same thing is possible for ice magic - why wouldn't it be?

If Mel is a greenseer, Aeron Damphair, and Daenerys as well, then yes, I might concede the point. We would have to include Pyat Pree and Mirri Maz Duur as well. This would make the term 'greenseer' akin to the term "magical person."

If we include Drogon, I'm even more in favor of it, as "greenseer" would simply mean "magical entity."

I know this sounds facetious, but I don't mean that way. I am just reminding you of the great variety of magics we've seen.

And, seen them, we have.

On the Other-side, we have not seen any of it. We've never seen behind their curtain. Bran did, and he cried out afraid with tears burning his cheeks.

We have not seen the Others demonstrate a single one of their assumed magical abilities. We've seen the aftermath, dead rising, swords glowing, and that Cold they bring. But we've yet to see them really do anything spectacular. The show may have, but that is of course, not canon.

Voice, there is just so much stuff likening Others to Greenseers - I haven't even begun to unleash that body of evidence on you, but trust me, it is overwhelming. The Last Hero's group of 12 were all greenseers, I'm certain of that, and they all "died" somehow in the frozen north. There are detailed, chapter-long correlations of this idea. If I were you, I would not shut your mind to this relationship. We don't know exactly what the relationship is, but it is there, I promise you. Evolett knows, we've been back-channeling all that stuff.

I've probably heard much of it from wolfmaid, but I look forward to your perspective. I completely agree that some parallels do exist, but, in my view, their powers/magics/forces are not 'one and the same' by any stretch of the imagination.

My mind is not shut, but as of yet, I've yet to hear compelling evidence to group them under the same umbrella. I'm not wedded to my beliefs. It's a work of fiction after all :) If your evidence persuades me, that would definitely help wolfmaid and I clink pints more often :cheers:

Wolfmaid, you said:

Coldhands acts like a green seer. I've been shouting from the mountain tops about this - he smells rotten, cold =, and dead, just like all the other cold wights - but the lek is not afraid of him. Ravens are carrion eaters, so it's less shocking to see the ravens aren't afraid of him (though they do attack cold wights, we've seen). But the ravens actually flock to him, talk to him, listen to him, and obey him. The Elk too - it obeys him, taking the children along a specified path after CH separates to go kick some mutineer ass (and carve up a side of "ham" for Bran, Jojen, Meera and Hodor). Coldhands is acting like a greenseer. But he's dead. And somehow, no blue star eyes, and he has his soul, it seems

.

I don't buy the "BR is skinchanging CH as a meat sack" idea, at all. CH is doing his own thing.

Yup. Wights are dead bodies, meat puppets, remotely controlled. CH is a living soul in a dead body. Beric is a living body with a dead (evacuated) soul. Ditto for Cat, and probably ditto for Khal Drogo. The Khal may have had a dying soul, on it's way from this world, who's journey was slowed as if moving through molasses. This brings me to Robert Strong. I don't think Gregor ever died. I think Qyburn successfully slowed his demise so greatly, he almost seems to live, but is actually in a suspended state of dying. He is likely in an incredible amount of pain, that must be dulled with elixir.

Balzfemur's idea has merit:

The hypothetical transformation process for these rebel greenseers is totally up in the air. Since greenseers are connected to trees, it figures the tree is involved somehow. Does this have something to do with the petrified trees?

They usually do, cheers Blaz... though I wouldn't necessarily call that his idea ;)

As I stated earlier, not sure if you saw it:

Now you're on the right track Blaz ;)

The First Men put Weirwoods to Fire

The Weirwoods put First Men to Ice

Equal and opposite reactions. Balance, symmetry. Yin and yang.

I do think the trees are involved, yes. And I do think the petrified trees offer a clue as to what happens to a weirwood when the Others move south and create their frozen dead lands.

I think the show actually gives us another clue, with their visual representation of white walkers, and their choice of using the term "white walkers" exclusively (D&D dropped usage of the term "the Others" for the most part). D&D's weirwood trees are white, with lined, ominous faces. And D&D's "white walkers" are white. Call it racial profiling, but aside from eye color, they look much alike ;)

This gets back to my antibody/autoimmune response idea. More to come on that in the next segment.

Has anyone read this?

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1lo3x7/spoilers_all_the_origin_and_identity_of_the_others/

It's a reddit thread making a case that the Others were men whom the CotF taught greenseeing, much like what we have been discussing.

Thanks for sharing. I just read it. It's well thought out, and well laid out. And I think wolfmaid will enjoy it immensely.

I do have some issues with the bold:

Conclusion

All of these points lead me to the following:

• The Children of the Forest taught first men the gift of greensight/skinchanging during the Pact
• The Others appeared 'shortly' after this for the first time
• Powerful wargs can possess humans
• Wargs live on after their body has died

TL;DR: The Others are a group of 8,000-year-old human wargs/skinchangers/greenseers, who used their gift to cheat death by skipping from one body to the next.

I think GRRM covers his tracks very well. As this is a very logical conclusion. The problem is, we've yet to see it work. Wargs do live on. We see this in Orell's eagle, and the raven in which Bran feels the presence of a cotf greenseer. These artifacts of consciousness, however, seem to be just that. They do not govern the body in which they dwell.

And, as Varamyr so perfectly demonstrated, it isn't possible to cheat death, even for a powerful skinchanger, such as he. I think we'd all agree the cotf greenseer that Bran feels within the raven was more powerful than V6, right? Well even she wasn't powerful enough to cheat death. An artifact of her consciousness remained in the raven, but the raven still acted like a raven.

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

As much as you guys may not agree the show is canon,you'll learn a lot more by the end of season 5 as I've been told by..A MOTHERFUCKING REDDIT USER. Anyway,the leak was interesting.

[Schwarze Sonne]

I wonder if the Others that's been mentioned are really "Others", even if they're in the name of AGOT prologue.

Something really weird about this line has been bothering me for ages, and I can't see anyone discuss about them. Especially the second sentence.

From Jon XII ADWD:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried.

Jon should never have seen the Others, how could he ever know those in his dream are really the Others? They certainly don't look like any living creature he has seen so he must have thought they were the Others, but they might be white walkers instead.

imho: Others = Others, Night's King, white walkers

Because, they aren't us.

I also don't understand why they would need a mount when they can move lightning fast on foot. The wight horses might be slow as other wights. What's the advantage?

Also, forty feet tall giant really bother me. A typo? Shouldn't it be fourteen? Forty is ridiculous large even for giants.

EDIT: I misread it due to my tireness. Sorry about "Others". Although giants 40 feet tall with oak tree as weapon remain unanswered.

[Mithras]

I wonder if the Others that's been mentioned are really "Others", even if they're in the name of AGOT prologue.

Something really weird about this line has been bothering me for ages, and I can't see anyone discuss about them. Especially the second sentence.

From Jon XII ADWD:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried.

Jon should never have seen the Others, how could he ever know those in his dream are really the Others? They certainly don't look like any living creature he has seen so he must have thought they were the Others, but they might be white walkers instead.

imho: Others = Others, Night's King, white walkers

Because, they aren't us.

I also don't understand why they would need a mount when they can move lightning fast on foot. The wight horses might be slow as other wights. What's the advantage?

Also, forty feet tall giant really bother me. A typo? Shouldn't it be fourteen? Forty is ridiculous large even for giants.

They are wildlings (men of the Frozen Shore) not Others.

After the riders came the men of the Frozen Shore. Jon watched a dozen of their big bone chariots roll past him one by one, clattering like Rattleshirt. Half still rolled as before; others had replaced their wheels with runners. They slid across the snowdrifts smoothly, where the wheeled chariots were foundering and sinking.

The dogs that drew the chariots were fearsome beasts, as big as direwolves. Their women were clad in sealskins, some with infants at their breasts. Older children shuffled along behind their mothers and looked up at Jon with eyes as dark and hard as the stones they clutched. Some of the men wore antlers on their hats, and some wore walrus tusks. The two sorts did not love each other, he soon gathered. A few thin reindeer brought up the rear, with the great dogs snapping at the heels of stragglers.

“Be wary o’ that lot, Jon Snow,” Tormund warned him. “A savage folk. The men are bad, the women worse.”

[wolfmaid7]

I agree your greenseer scenario is plausible. I just prefer to view the Others as a completely different form of life and magic. I think it's subjective more than semantic. But I do split semantic hairs for a living, so I know I'm guilty as charged in that regard.

I also agree that Samwell (and most likely Grenn, but we have no way of knowing that) didn't see any Others/ww's at the Fist with his own two eyes. But, I think the brothers around him from the Shadow Tower did.

I also agree that the "weather" conditions they seem to create would make it difficult to get a positive ID on anyone, let alone someone with Predator-style body armor.

We will have to agree to disagree methinks on greenseers. From the wiki:

A greenseer is the name for the wise men of the children of the forest who had magical abilities that included power over nature and prophetic visions.

Greenseers had the greensight and were wargs as well.^[1] The First Men believed that they were responsible for carving the faces into weirwood trees and stories describe the greenseers seeing through the faces of their weirwoods, influencing animal and plant life.^[2] As the tales go, they used their power to shatter the Arm of Dorne into the island chain of the Stepstones.^[3]

One in a thousand men is born a skinchanger and one skinchanger in a thousand is born a greenseer.^[4] It is also known that humans can be born greenseers just as they are born wargs.

The relationship between the greenseers of the children of the forest and the order of green men who protect the Isle of Faces in the God's Eye has not been specified. There is one greenseer left in the world - the Last Greenseer.

Greenseers see. That's what they do. While greenseers are wargs and skinchangers as well, their name and wisdom comes from their ability to see. We have never seen a greenseer raise the dead. Leaf's warning might mean that they can, or it might be a warning against dwelling on the past too much. I interpret it as the latter, you, the prior. Until more evidence is available, that's where we must remain.

Do greenseers wear armor that makes them difficult to see? Do greenseers have weapons that shatter steel? Do greenseers hunt and butcher men of the Night's Watch? Do greenseers ride dead animals? Do they ride any mounts at all? Do they change the weather? Do their eyes glow? Do they raise the dead? Do they create new forms of life from babes they find in the woods?

Uh huh. They sure do. And we know exactly how this process works, thanks to Bran. Greenseers bond with beasts. They enter their mind with their own.

Some of these beasts even seem to initiate the bond.

Clearly? Is it? How do we know the means by which white walkers are created? Or the means by which wights are raised and controlled? We can guess. But that's all we can do at this point. We've absolutely no data at all to suggest it is a process that is anything at all like that of skinchanging.

The Others apparently raise the neverborn/ww's/CS. That itself is far different from anything we've ever seen a greenseer do.

Those who fall in battle to them are raised again as wights. This also is far different from anything we've ever seen a greenseer do.

Now might they have such abilities? Sure, I guess. But we haven't seen anything at all that demonstrates they do.

When Bran and BR's eyes start to glow like red and green lights at an intersection, I'll consider the powers might be related. If Coldhands/Bran/BR would have raised CH's elk from the dead to carry them onward to the cave, I would be all for what you are suggesting. If Coldhands was covered in magical earth armor and carried a sword of green ice, I'd buy into this. If Leaf brings BR a newborn baby, and wakes a green giant from the earth with it, I'll eat my words.

Until then, they remain completely autonomous.

There is no way the Ancient Others are greenseers. I'm doubling down on that position.

If I have the book in my hands and it proves me wrong I will be so happy just to have the answers that I'll humbly congratulate you, admit defeat, and take you to a Giants or Niners game. How's that?

Sorry, you're not gonna convince me the "greenseers" are not of the "green" persuasion. Please pay attention to the bolded green, wolfmaid ;)

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

There are none who can say with certain knowledge when the world began, yet this has not stopped many maesters and learned men from seeking the answer. Is it forty thousand years old, as some hold, or perhaps a number as large as five hundred thousand—or even more? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered. We can be certain that the world was far more primitive, however—a barbarous place of tribes living directly from the land with no knowledge of the working of metal or the taming of beasts. What little is known to us of those days is contained in the oldest of texts: the tales written down by the Andals, by the Valyrians, and by the Ghiscari, and even by those distant people of fabled Asshai. Yet however ancient those lettered races, they were not even children during the Dawn Age. So what truths their tales contain are difficult to find, like seeds among chaff. What can most accurately be told about the Dawn Age? The eastern lands were awash with many peoples—uncivilized, as all the world was uncivilized, but numerous. But on Westeros, from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, only two peoples existed: the children of the forest and the race of creatures known as the giants.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Yet no matter the truths of their arts, the children were led by their greenseers, and there is no doubt that they could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea. They made their homes simply, constructing no holdfasts or castles or cities. Instead they resided in the woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills. It is said that, in the woods, they made shelters of leaves and withes up in the branches of trees—secret tree "towns."

Did the cotf and their greenseers live under the shores of the Summer Sea? No? Well, they also didn't live in the Lands of Always Winter. They never have, never will, and do not today. BR's cave is pretty far north, but not that far. That far north, there are no more trees. No life at all.

Except for that Other form of life, of course.

What? Who?

Please, pray tell, who are these "Greenseers that live in The LOAW"?

There are no greenseers in the Lands of Always Winter. There aren't even trees there, let alone greenseers wedded to them.

From what? There are no greenseers in the LOAW, so you can't exactly start drawing conclusions from that assumption. But for the sake of argument, I'll humor the suggestion.

How, pray tell, does this in any way demonstrate greenseers are NOT just observers?

Moving on to your points 'a' and 'b'...

a. Sure and what do they do with those skins? They see! LOL. Seriously though, until we see a wizened old Other teaching one of Craster's sons how to control a popsicle body, this just doesn't hold up. We have absolutely no idea what their process is like.

But we do know this, Greenseers deal with life. They thrive in places that support life. They inhabit these living trees. They bond with living animals. They sing the song of Earth. They endure through the seasons in one spot rooted to their eternal weirwoods that grasp the living Earth itself.

We also know that the Others deal with death. They thrive in the frozen, dead lands. They animate normally inanimate Ice. They animate dead beasts and men. Their voices are like the cracking of ice. They prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

b. I'll never understand why you use the Hammer as an example. If it is indeed a give the Greenseers possess, it isn't one that the Others possess, so it doesn't even qualify as a parallel. So yes, while it is said that the cotf and their greenseers broke the Arm of Dorne, we don't know that was truly the case. Do we? The author, of course, also provides us with an alternative scenario:

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Breaking

Most scholars do agree that Essos and Westeros were once joined; a thousand tales and runic records tell of the crossing of the First Men. Today the seas divide them, so plainly some version of the event the Dornish call the Breaking must have occurred. Did it happen in the space of a single day, however, as the songs would have it? Was it the work of the children of the forest and the sorcery of their greenseers? These things are less certain. Archmaester Cassander suggests elsewise in his Song of the Sea: How the Lands Were Severed, arguing that it was not the singing of greenseers that parted Westeros from Essos but rather what he calls the Song of the Sea—a slow rising of the waters that took place over centuries, not in a single day, and was caused by a series of long, hot summers and short, warm winters that melted the ice in the frozen lands beyond the Shivering Sea, causing the oceans to rise.

So this really cannot be used as evidence for the Other-Greenseer connection, as:

1. It isn't even a capability we've seen from the Others. As powerful as they are, they haven't yet shifted the Earth itself.
2. It isn't even a capability we've seen from a Greenseer.

Voice i think you are intentionally trying to put a mental block on this.Archmaester Cassander is more or less a scientist.We know science and continental drift didn't cause this magic caused this.You know this to be so,but if you are accepting this then you have to accept that acording to the same learned men that THE OTHERS ARE WILDLINGS.

Secondly i think i prooved their are GS in the LOAW because the WB says so,and unless the Andal and the First men ventured there and massacred them they are still there.

Lastly,and i can't believe i'm still arguing this with you.As ive shown with TEXT the only difference between the Others enthralling and Greenseers enthralling is one does it with the dead and the others with the living.

Lastly,lets go back to the WB and the main text about if the GS only observe.I've got 3 texts from the WB and text from the main series that say they do more than just observe so you are wrong about that.

I also think your thinking with regards to them are to linear,and this is where i think you also get caught up in how you define the Others with regards to them riding ice spiders.Its not a one to one comparison.You can't say that "all" "Green"seers are doing the exact same thing with regards to their powers.So therefore because one set uses Earth all must use Earth you are homogenizing them.One deals with Cold Winds and everything associated with the cold which means....ICE

The WB puts them and the Children in the Summer Isles as well as the LOAW.So are you expecting them to look and behave exactly as the ones in Bran's cave.Ofcourse not they will be adapted to what ever environment they are in.

Also if the Greensers deal with only life why in Mel's vision did she see BR and Bran surrounded by "SKULLS?"

The Wiki is not reliable Voice and you know that....Anyone can edit this and that is a rudimentary understanding of what a "Green" seer is.Again i use the term loosely because as i said i believe it is Those who Sing the Song of Earth's label for their leader.

The ones in the North by luck of not having a POV there yet have no name so therefore they are Others.

[Voice]

As much as you guys may not agree the show is canon,you'll learn a lot more by the end of season 5 as I've been told by..A MOTHERFUCKING REDDIT USER. Anyway,the leak was interesting.

LOL yeah. I've seem 'em. But as they may in fact turn out to be completely bogus, we should stick to the text for now.

I wonder if the Others that's been mentioned are really "Others", even if they're in the name of AGOT prologue.

I wonder the same. But that's probably obvious from my little thread here haha. But yes, the Others in the Prologue are seen in summer as the Wall is weeping. I think we will not see their true might, and highest ranks of authority, until Winter.

So in terms of the definition you give them further below, yes they were Others. But they seem more like Waymar Royce's party (a leader given command of a few brothers), than they do the true leadership, like Lord Commander Mormont, Maester Aemon, the First Ranger, Builder, Steward, etc...

Something really weird about this line has been bothering me for ages, and I can't see anyone discuss about them. Especially the second sentence.

From Jon XII ADWD:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried.

The Giants are strange. The strangest parts for me, however, are that:

1. Jon seems to be on the wrong side. He's killing Men, not the "scuttling foemen."

2. The world dissolved into a red mist. The blood of living men is red, not wights or Others.

3. Who's gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder?

The gnarled hand seems to be part of the dream, rather than his waking world. He's alone in the bedchamber. There's no one shaking him. There's just a raven pecking at his chest, saying "Snow." I'd like to say it is the hand of Brynden Rivers, but that can't be, as after the hand seized him, "he whirled..." in the dream.

So that gnarled hand was on the Wall with Jon.

The rest all seems very clear to me, dragonglass armor, flaming sword, the Wall. He's the Last Hero, and he wields dragonsteel. LmL would call this Azor Ahai imagery. I call it Last Hero imagery, because we're in Westeros, and I think the Last Hero story was handed down by the LH's descendents, rather than being changed and influenced by shady characters in Asshai.

Jon should never have seen the Others, how could he ever know those in his dream are really the Others? They certainly don't look like any living creature he has seen so he must have thought they were the Others, but they might be white walkers instead.

They might indeed. As you point out, how would Jon know? All he has to go on are the stories from Old Nan. Not that they are inaccurate, but he's yet to put a name to the face.

imho: Others = Others, Night's King, white walkers

Because, they aren't us.

Agreed. I think that is precisely what the term means.

Martin has anthropomorphized the sense of 'self' and 'other.'

I also don't understand why they would need a mount when they can move lightning fast on foot. The wight horses might be slow as other wights. What's the advantage?

We don't know if they're lightning fast in terms of traveling. They're not ghosts after all, just another form of life. I think as such, they may even tire and grow weary, thus requiring a mount.

Of course, the answer could simply be GRRM wanted to include the dramatic effect of their corpse-mounts ;)

Also, forty feet tall giant really bother me. A typo? Shouldn't it be fourteen? Forty is ridiculous large even for giants.

EDIT: I misread it due to my tireness. Sorry about "Others". Although giants 40 feet tall with oak tree as weapon remain unanswered.

No worries, and welcome to the forum! :cheers:

I think Jon is seeing Old Nan's version of giants:

Jon II ASOS

In Old Nan's stories, giants were outsized men who lived in colossal castles, fought with huge swords, and walked about in boots a boy could hide in. These were something else, more bearlike than human, and as wooly as the mammoths they rode. Seated, it was hard to say how big they truly were. Ten feet tall maybe, or twelve, Jon thought. Maybe fourteen, but no taller. Their sloping chests might have passed for those of men, but their arms hung down too far, and their lower torsos looked half again as wide as their upper. Their legs were shorter than their arms, but very thick, and they wore no boots at all; their feet were broad splayed things, hard and horny and black. Neckless, their huge heavy heads thrust forward from between their shoulder blades, and their faces were squashed and brutal. Rats' eyes no larger than beads were almost lost within folds of horny flesh, but they snuffled constantly, smelling as much as they saw.

But who knows. Mayhaps these are the Giants the Horn of Joramun can wake from the earth? It'll be interesting to see how fantastical GRRM gets with the final climactic battle. This would seem a bit much for him, right? But I mean... dragons. All we need now is Rickon to sweep in from stage left riding a unicorn :D

They are wildlings (men of the Frozen Shore) not Others.

After the riders came the men of the Frozen Shore. Jon watched a dozen of their big bone chariots roll past him one by one, clattering like Rattleshirt. Half still rolled as before; others had replaced their wheels with runners. They slid across the snowdrifts smoothly, where the wheeled chariots were foundering and sinking.

The dogs that drew the chariots were fearsome beasts, as big as direwolves. Their women were clad in sealskins, some with infants at their breasts. Older children shuffled along behind their mothers and looked up at Jon with eyes as dark and hard as the stones they clutched. Some of the men wore antlers on their hats, and some wore walrus tusks. The two sorts did not love each other, he soon gathered. A few thin reindeer brought up the rear, with the great dogs snapping at the heels of stragglers.

“Be wary o’ that lot, Jon Snow,” Tormund warned him. “A savage folk. The men are bad, the women worse.”

Agreed. Things from his waking life have seeped into his dream. Still, can't help but wonder at some of the imagery. These "savages" as Tormund calls them seem to fit the description of the giants in Old Nan's stories, more than most. Jon is witnessing the stories come to life. Giants did in fact lumber among them. They weren't forty feet tall of course, but it is still quite interesting.

Of course, according to my interpretation, Jon goes on to see yet one more half-forgotten demon out of legend later in the dream :devil:

[LmL]

Not to bog down the thread with Last Hero / Azor Ahai stuff, but Mel asks to see Azor Ahai and sees Snow, while Jon Snow holds a sword that burns red in his hand. That's Azor Ahai. Azor's sword may also be dragon steel of the LH, and Azor may well have become the Ladt Hero eventually (there is a lot of overlap with LH symbolism and AA symbolism). But the Last Hero stories do not mention fire or a burning sword, at all. That's Azor Ahai's sword. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, to whatever extent someone can be reborn - I think about these as archetypal roles, but whatever. The fact that her murders his love and usurps the throne from his brother, declaring himself the Lord of Winterfell, is an exact match for Azor Ahai as the usurper, the Bloodstone Emperor. He's holding Azor Ahai's red fire sword, betraying, murdering, and usurping.

While he doesn't seem to be fighting Others here, he is killing dead foemen, "sending them back down the wall to die AGAIN." I paraphrased but I think that's pretty close. So there some ambiguity as to whonhe is fighting.

I would love to hear anyone's guess as to who's gnarled hand that was. That's a really stumper. (See what I did there)

[LmL]

While we are talking about the frozen shore, I noticed something from TWOAIF last night: some wildlings worship "dark gods beneath the ground in the frost fangs." That's the same place Mance was opening up graves and setting lose ghosts, according to Ygritte. What's up with that? Are those the undead bodies of the bigger, nastier giants Old Nan may be alluding to?

[Voice]

Voice i think you are intentionally trying to put a mental block on this.Archmaester Cassander is more or less a scientist.We know science and continental drift didn't cause this magic caused this.You know this to be so,but if you are accepting this then you have to accept that acording to the same learned men that THE OTHERS ARE WILDLINGS.

I'm not trying to block anything out wolfmaid. Land bridges occur in real life as well. They also disappear in real life. It is a very natural occurrence.

Now, that being said, the cotf may well have been "praying" for that "very natural occurrence" to occur. Whether or not their prayers were answered, or had any effect on the land bridge remains to be seen.

And I still don't see how this matters. Unless you are claiming the Others can destroy land bridges by calling upon some Hammer of the Ices, I fail to see how this is even relevant.

You know this to be so,but if you are accepting this then you have to accept that acording to the same learned men that THE OTHERS ARE WILDLINGS.

No, we don't know this to be so. We do not know for a fact that the cotf indeed did cause the Breaking of the Arm, nor the Flooding of the Neck. We did not see those things happen.

Others, we've seen, so of course we can refute that they are merely a rogue band of wildlings. We've seen them and they are clearly not human. This, we know.

We have no more evidence for the existence of the children's Hammer than we do for snarks and grumpkins. GRRM could well alter this landscape, as he has Bran plugged into the weirnet now, but until we actually know the cotf caused the Breaking of the Arm or the Flooding of the Neck, we simply do not know.

Secondly i think i prooved their are GS in the LOAW because the WB says so,and unless the Andal and the First men ventured there and massacred them they are still there.

What? No it doesn't. It doesn't say that in any way.

We're friends, my Bay Area Compadora. So please do not take this wrong, but I want you to read my lips: THERE ARE NO GREENSEERS IN THE LANDS OF ALWAYS WINTER. None. Zip. There aren't even trees in the Lands of Always Winter. Let alone people living in them.

I pulled the actual quotes from the Worldbook for you, wolfmaid. It DOES NOT say they lived IN the Lands of Always Winter.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

There are none who can say with certain knowledge when the world began, yet this has not stopped many maesters and learned men from seeking the answer. Is it forty thousand years old, as some hold, or perhaps a number as large as five hundred thousand—or even more? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered. We can be certain that the world was far more primitive, however—a barbarous place of tribes living directly from the land with no knowledge of the working of metal or the taming of beasts. What little is known to us of those days is contained in the oldest of texts: the tales written down by the Andals, by the Valyrians, and by the Ghiscari, and even by those distant people of fabled Asshai. Yet however ancient those lettered races, they were not even children during the Dawn Age. So what truths their tales contain are difficult to find, like seeds among chaff. What can most accurately be told about the Dawn Age? The eastern lands were awash with many peoples—uncivilized, as all the world was uncivilized, but numerous. But on Westeros, from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, only two peoples existed: the children of the forest and the race of creatures known as the giants.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Yet no matter the truths of their arts, the children were led by their greenseers, and there is no doubt that they could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea. They made their homes simply, constructing no holdfasts or castles or cities. Instead they resided in the woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills. It is said that, in the woods, they made shelters of leaves and withes up in the branches of trees—secret tree "towns."

It's like saying Californians can be found from the Colorado River to the shores of the Pacific Ocean. That doesn't mean we live in the ocean, or in the river. After all, we're not fish.

It means we live between them.

Lastly,and i can't believe i'm still arguing this with you.As ive shown with TEXT the only difference between the Others enthralling and Greenseers enthralling is one does it with the dead and the others with the living.

Ah, yes. Well see, to me, that's all the difference in the world. That's a matter of Life and Death.

Lastly,lets go back to the WB and the main text about if the GS only observe.I've got 3 texts from the WB and text from the main series that say they do more than just observe so you are wrong about that.

Sure, they also observe from the eyes of their familiars. They can observe with a raven's senses. They can observe with a direwolf's senses. They can even observe by using a Hodor's senses.

The parallels are clearly there.

But in the case of Others, and white walkers, they are doing far more than 'observing.' They are living. And they are not living as artifacts, like the female cotf greenseer in Bran's raven, or the fading consciousness of Varamyr inside of One-Eye. In GRRM's own words, they aren't even dead:

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Unless you are talking about wights. If you are, then let me address that.

While on the most superficial level, it is true that something is animating the corpses we call "wights." This is not true for Summer, Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggydog, or Grey Wind. The Starks do not animate their wolves. The direwolves are alive, animate themselves through normal biological and nervous functions, and the Stark children bond with them so intimately, they become a part of the wolf's consciousness. They aren't using the wolves as meat puppets, they become the wolf itself.

Something is using the wights as meat puppets. There is no bond.

Like a remote controlled toy, when energized, the lights come on and they start moving. You don't see how this is completely different from the warg-bond and skinchanging??? It's beyond apples and oranges, this is an apple tree and an icicle.

I also think your thinking with regards to them are to linear,and this is where i think you also get caught up in how you define the Others with regards to them riding ice spiders.Its not a one to one comparison.You can't say that "all" "Green"seers are doing the exact same thing with regards to their powers.So therefore because one set uses Earth all must use Earth you are homogenizing them.One deals with Cold Winds and everything associated with the cold which means....ICE

Well, in the case of Greenseers, we've only met one. So it is a one to one comparison. Unless you know of some other greenseers we should be examining, in order to better gauge their doings.

So, no, I can't say all greenseers are doing the exact same thing. And I haven't ever said that. Looking at the one greenseer we've seen, it appears they sit in the roots of a tree and look at historical events, and fly around inside ravens. They may be able to do much and more, but so far, we haven't seen that.

Am I homogenizing them? How can I when there is only one to choose from? There is no evidence your other type of greenseer even exists.

Just because you have manufactured them, and can see them at the helm, governing these Cold Winds, doesn't mean we all can see them too.

Also if the Greensers deal with only life why in Mel's vision did she see BR and Bran surrounded by "SKULLS?"

There's bones in the ground. That's where they belong. Bones buried in the earth seem bizarre to a crazy person like Mel.

[Mithras]

While we are talking about the frozen shore, I noticed something from TWOAIF last night: some wildlings worship "dark gods beneath the ground in the frost fangs." That's the same place Mance was opening up graves and setting lose ghosts, according to Ygritte. What's up with that? Are those the undead bodies of the bigger, nastier giants Old Nan may be alluding to?

The countless tribes and clans of the free folk remain worshippers of the old gods of the First Men and children of the forest, the gods of the weirwood trees (some accounts say that there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore, or crab gods at Storrold’s Point, but such has never been reliably confirmed).

1. Underground dark gods seem like Old Ones of Leng. It is said that the native Lengii are descended from the Old Ones and they are extremely tall yet dark and beautiful like the CotF. They also have golden eyes that see well in the dark. A possible giant-CotF cross breeding? Seems likely. Perhaps they dwell in Frostfangs as well.

2. Gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore are definitely the Others. It seems like there are lots of Crasters at Frozen Shore.

[Voice]

Not to bog down the thread with Last Hero / Azor Ahai stuff, but Mel asks to see Azor Ahai and sees Snow, while Jon Snow holds a sword that burns red in his hand. That's Azor Ahai. Azor's sword may also be dragon steel of the LH, and Azor may well have become the Ladt Hero eventually (there is a lot of overlap with LH symbolism and AA symbolism). But the Last Hero stories do not mention fire or a burning sword, at all. That's Azor Ahai's sword. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, to whatever extent someone can be reborn - I think about these as archetypal roles, but whatever. The fact that her murders his love and usurps the throne from his brother, declaring himself the Lord of Winterfell, is an exact match for Azor Ahai as the usurper, the Bloodstone Emperor. He's holding Azor Ahai's red fire sword, betraying, murdering, and usurping.

While he doesn't seem to be fighting Others here, he is killing dead foemen, "sending them back down the wall to die AGAIN." I paraphrased but I think that's pretty close. So there some ambiguity as to whonhe is fighting.

That's not bogging it down. Last Hero / Azor Ahai is what it's all about. Lots of purposeful overlap to be sure.

The stories of LH did not mention a burning sword, but the annals mention dragonsteel. If a dragonsteel sword doesn't burn, I don't know what would ;)

And I agree about Jon usurping the Lord of Winterfell...maybe even the Lord of Winter himself :devil:

True, he kills foemen, but he's also killing Men, and many, many of them. Mayhaps Jon will be the mad Targaryen, the Great Leveler, and kill scores on both sides LOL

I would love to hear anyone's guess as to who's gnarled hand that was. That's a really stumper. (See what I did there)

:bowdown: LOL Nice one indeed LmL. Though I doubt Jaime Lannister would find it funny.

While we are talking about the frozen shore, I noticed something from TWOAIF last night: some wildlings worship "dark gods beneath the ground in the frost fangs." That's the same place Mance was opening up graves and setting lose ghosts, according to Ygritte. What's up with that? Are those the undead bodies of the bigger, nastier giants Old Nan may be alluding to?

Mayhaps. "...woke giants from the earth." There are some in Heresy who believe this is precisely how the Others came about, and whey they are appearing again.

I don't, as Mance was searching in the Frostfangs because of the threat of the Others, rather than the other way around. But it has come up.

It could well be that there are bigger, nastier Giants. There is the mention of a nastier giant at the Fist as well.

[Voice]

The countless tribes and clans of the free folk remain worshippers of the old gods of the First Men and children of the forest, the gods of the weirwood trees (some accounts say that there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore, or crab gods at Storrold’s Point, but such has never been reliably confirmed).

1. Underground dark gods seem like Old Ones of Leng. It is said that the native Lengii are descended from the Old Ones and they are extremely tall yet dark and beautiful like the CotF. They also have golden eyes that see well in the dark. A possible giant-CotF cross breeding? Seems likely. Perhaps they dwell in Frostfangs as well.

2. Gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore are definitely the Others. It seems like there are lots of Crasters at Frozen Shore.

Nice quote.

1. The bold would be really cool to see.

2. Seems likely to me as well. Craster was likely not the only man out there "getting right with the gods."

[Mithras]

There is so much hype about "Under the Sea" thanks to Patchface but I think "Under the Earth" is just as important.

If there are Old Ones in the North, Gendel and the survivors most probably ended up as their dinners.

Can waking giants from the earth be related to the Old Ones? They seem like expert stonemasons. They have vast underground cities. Perhaps they shape stone by magic. Perhaps they can move the earth and collapse the things over the surface by using their magic as long as someone pays the necessary blood sacrifice to them.

So, if Bran and his party will get a safe passage to the South using Gorne's Way as many people suspect, what will be the price of that passage? Will Jojen be sacrificed to the Old Ones?