The Hierarchy of the Others

[Voice]

I firmly disagree that the Deep Ones have been introduced in one sentence. I have already addressed this in my response to LmL, but let me repeat myself. The introduction of Patchface and the Ironborn culture opened the possibility of the real threat coming out of the water. The Deep Ones is just a name given to that threat in TWOIAF. That being said, at this stage in the novels, the Others are men's enemies. But, up until the last novel so were the wildlings and they are not anymore. And imho that is the key to the story. Converting enemies to allies, because all of them will have to fight united what is coming.

While I can understand your reasoning, it seems strange me to rely on late developments, rather than overarching ones, to form a hypothesis on the end game.

I agree that at this stage in the novels, the Others are men's enemies. I would add they always have been. And have been spoken of as such for 8000 years. And that the letter, while antiquated by the novels themselves, clearly reaffirms them as such. It makes sense given Old Nan's mantra, and the entire oral history surrounding them (not just Old Nan), for them to be the half-forgotten true threat.

Your Deep Ones, while they may be what Patchface and the Ironborn allude to, they may well not be. At least we have mention of Others coming in the long night, them hunting humans, and their desire to eradicate life. I'm not saying there aren't dots to connect in Patchface's songs, and as I said before, critical readers would be able to see them, but for the casual readership, Deep Ones would feel contrived and confusing. GRRM wants his masterpiece to stand on its own two feet. Or, eight, minus one... ;)

You would be surprised how many passages in the books refer to the threat from the sea. And imho no one is creepier than poor Patchface. So, if that is how one looks like if he survives the Deep Ones then give me Others any day.

I wouldn't actually. I'm quite aware of the multitude of 'threats from sea' passages. But to connect them readily to the Deep Ones, who have all of one sentence (in addendum material) dedicated to their existence, is not something I'm prepared to do. And even if I were prepared to do that, I'd see no reason to assume they were the greater threat and that the Others were going to save the realms of men from them....

It's overly confident to miss a whole aspect of the books starting from Patchface, continuing with the Ironborn, Crabs etc. and then claim they just don't exist.

No reason to get defensive, or offended. I didn't miss that aspect of the books at all, I just don't ascribe those passages the same amount of plot purpose that you do.

Well, humans have to eat and drink and they do not have smoking blood running down their skin. Did you see any humans that resemble that description?

This is a semantic isssue. If you prefer to think of Mel as non-human, that's fine with me. I see her as a magically corrupted form of a human being, but nonetheless, she is human. She remembers being a little slave girl, and can eat and drink should she choose to. It is simply that she is sustained magically, instead, and has no urgent need for biological nourishment. Like Bloodraven.

But it is obvious from that draft that it was fundamentally altered. Or are you expecting Arya/Jon incest?

Ha! No, I don't see the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle playing out. I've had to argue the insanity of that in Heresy to no end.

Yes, obviously alterations have occurred. And if you choose to ignore or dismiss those elements that have remained, you are free to do so.

What is confirmed is that half-forgotten demons are a threat. If even Robert Baratheon is using a phrase "Others take my wife", I wouldn't say the Others are forgotten.

Half forgotten. Not utterly forgotten. And you leave out a key portion of that quote. The half-forgotten demons are named, and unlike your Deep Ones, can be found in our published novels:

half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn

Although i do disagree with much of what Modesty L just said, I do think it’s fair to point out that the NAME of something isn’t really that important. We only go the name “deep ones” in TWOIAF, just as we only go the name “Great Empire of the Dawn” in TWOAIF, but there have been many references to aquatic humanoid beings that interbred with people just as there has been many clues and references to dragonlords that existed before Valyria, connected to Asshai.

And... just as the term “Ancient Others” hasn’t been used, and just as we have never actually SEEN Ice Spiders or possibly Ancient Others if VotFM’s premise is correct, which I think it probably is. It doesn’t really matter what we call them - ancient Others, White Walkers, Others - we know there is a level of Other invasion that we haven’t seen yet.

Just wanted to make that point - the specific name isn’t the important thing.

I agree, the NAME we ascribe them is not important. As I mentioned, if we are speaking of Deep Ones as a half-forgotten cognate of "the Others" that totally makes sense. Otherwise, not so much.

[wolfmaid7]

Double post

[Voice]

Voice are you serious right now? There is no difference between wearing the skin of the dead or the living except one is dead and the other not dead. Its still all Skinchanging thats the big clue.

Sure there is. Huge differences abound...

When someone wears the skin of a dead animal, it is usually in the form of boots.

And we have seen... let's count them up right now... zero instances of a greenseer controlling a dead body. Zip.

You have generalized the skinchanging gift in your mind, I cannot change that. But from where I'm standing, that "big clue" only exists in your mind.

Skinchanging is a bond between two living beings.

Do you think the Stark children would have developed skinchanging bonds with their direwolf pups had they all been found dead in the snow?

If so, why didn't Ned develop a skinchanging ability with the dead direwolf mother?

Pluuuus Leaf's warning to Bran about NOT calling Ned back from the dead says they can do that.

It might. But it might not. And she never said that "calling him back" would result in a wight-Ned, or a white-walking-Ned.

Mayhaps it would only create a Coldhands-Ned.

We've nothing to suggest that Bran would then somehow control Ned, or skinchange Ned. Not that those don't sound like cool horrors to write into the books, but we've still no evidence for greenseers controlling corpses.

I tend to read Leaf's warning as an admonition against foolishness, rather than a suggestion Bran can control the dead like a remote controlled toy.

And here is something you can't talk around. CH''S very existence. If he's a thrall of BR then its proof that GS can do the very thing you say they can't.

If.

If he is, then I agree. As of now, all we have is "if."

One need not examine CH for long to see he is far more than a thrall. Wights don't speak in queer tongues, nor sing prayers for their mounts. You will have noticed, wights cannot even mount mounts. The thralls we have seen are clumsy, animated, dead meat.

Coldhands is far more than that.

If he's of his own self it proves they can and he can as a Skinchanger. You see what I mean, that's how proof looks when its solid.

If.

Solid proof does not include the word "if."

[LmL]

No way Coldhands is a meat puppet. He's clearly his own person, and probably older than Bloodraven.

Like, a LOT older.

[Voice]

Yup. Preach it Brutha!

[Modesty Lannister]

While I can understand your reasoning, it seems strange me to rely on late developments, rather than overarching ones, to form a hypothesis on the end game.

I agree that at this stage in the novels, the Others are men's enemies. I would add they always have been. And have been spoken of as such for 8000 years. And that the letter, while antiquated by the novels themselves, clearly reaffirms them as such. It makes sense given Old Nan's mantra, and the entire oral history surrounding them (not just Old Nan), for them to be the half-forgotten true threat.

Your Deep Ones, while they may be what Patchface and the Ironborn allude to, they may well not be. At least we have mention of Others coming in the long night, them hunting humans, and their desire to eradicate life. I'm not saying there aren't dots to connect in Patchface's songs, and as I said before, critical readers would be able to see them, but for the casual readership, Deep Ones would feel contrived and confusing. GRRM wants his masterpiece to stand on its own two feet. Or, eight, minus one... ;)

I am so glad you brought this up. Wildlings have been enemies of men inside 7 kingdoms for thousands of years. So were CotF, giants etc. Then CotF made pact with the FM. Recently Mance Rayder brought wildlings over the Wall and they joined other men. So, the theme of foes turned into friends is a recurring one. I can go on with this theme a lot, but you have to wait for the first instalment of my theory (yes, LmL, you are not the only one who has sequels. Lol.) No one is saying the Others are not perceived as a threat. Of course they are. And so were the wildlings (just read Old Nan's account on the wildlings) and CotF before them.

As for the bolded bit, I would remind you of the Lysa Arryn murder mystery twist. The clues were there all along. GRRM gave us all we needed to know to deduce who killed Jon Arryn, but he first released a smoke screen called "Lysa's letter". And how many readers did not see it coming? Red wedding. All clues were there as well. And how many readers expected what happened? GRRM is the arch master of twists and he does not waste a single line. Do you think he is done with twists? From the experience with 5 books we should know by now that the most important clues are subtle. And scattered. You have to pick them from the stream like Rhaegar's rubies.

I wouldn't actually. I'm quite aware of the multitude of 'threats from sea' passages. But to connect them readily to the Deep Ones, who have all of one sentence (in addendum material) dedicated to their existence, is not something I'm prepared to do. And even if I were prepared to do that, I'd see no reason to assume they were the greater threat and that the Others were going to save the realms of men from them....

Glad you are aware of these passages. The Deep Ones is just a name as LmL pointed out. Call them "undersea creatures", call them Joes from the sea. Call them what you will. It doesn't make much difference. How can they be a greater threat than Others? The answer is very simple indeed. Westeros is surrounded by oceans and all coasts are vulnerable (except from maybe the Dornish one. These people have a trick or two up their sleeve.). So, it can be attacked from west, east and south simultaneously. Others can attack 7 kingdoms if they cross the Wall. They can attack from one side - from the north. So, you do not have to be Doran Martell to evaluate, which threat is strategically greater. And Theon's character with its identity crises may have a major role to play in this part of the saga. Otherwise, what would his greater purpose be?

GRRM never writes a single action without a firm motive. Do you think the motive of the Others is mindless "kill, kill, kill" mantra? That would be a motive for the wights since they are ice zombies. You took a great deal of your time to try to figure out the hierarchy of Others. And I respect that effort. But, without a motive that moves that army, your theory cannot stand on two feet, nor on seven. For me, finding out what moves characters and groups is the key. We can argue until the cows come home (like you and Wolfsmaid7 do) about who moves the wights, how come we didn't see ice spiders etc. But, when you find a relevant motive that moves them, then you have a whole theory. I hope you do find it.

No reason to get defensive, or offended. I didn't miss that aspect of the books at all, I just don't ascribe those passages the same amount of plot purpose that you do.

I'm neither. I'm just throwing back your own assertion about me being overconfident right back at you. Like a frisbee. You threw it first. B)

This is a semantic isssue. If you prefer to think of Mel as non-human, that's fine with me. I see her as a magically corrupted form of a human being, but nonetheless, she is human. She remembers being a little slave girl, and can eat and drink should she choose to. It is simply that she is sustained magically, instead, and has no urgent need for biological nourishment. Like Bloodraven.

Well, she is as human as Beric or Coldhands. They just don't wear glamours. Beric remembers who he was and so does Coldhands. Would you classify them as human? You do not know what Bloodraven eats. Bran eats and I suppose Bloodraven does as well. So, do not go into that comparison. It may lead us too far astray.

Half forgotten. Not utterly forgotten. And you leave out a key portion of that quote. The half-forgotten demons are named, and unlike your Deep Ones, can be found in our published novels:

half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the never born

I have already explained twice how I break down that sentence (to Wolfsmaid7 and to LmL on this thread). So, pls, don't make me do that trice. We may disagree on this, but no need for endless repetition.

And finally, I will end with this remark. While the majority of people think of the climax of this story as the battle between the elements, I see it as the battle between two types of magic represented visually through a white weirwood tree and black oily stone. White magic against the black one. Balance against the lack of it. And in this battle, some major players have switched sides. This will be elaborated further in the first part of my theory. I postulate that there is a core group of people trying their utmost to either change sides themselves or push other individuals and groups to do so. And while I agree that the Others are no friends of men at the moment, I do see a possibility of an alliance. Why? Because myths about the end of the LN do not talk about a bloody battle that made the Others yield. They talk about the last hero finding CotF who helped him end the LN. Where is that mythical battle in the far north? Where are the tales of heroes who defeated the monsters? There was one man who got help from CotF. What help? How did that help manifest itself?

If we go by AA myth, there was also one man who forged a sword and that sword was instrumental in defeating the threat. Again, do we see an epic battle in which AA stands on the forefront of an army of men fighting the Others? No. So, two core LN myths and no battle. Just one man standing against the whole threat. It is food for thought.

[LmL]

And finally, I will end with this remark. While the majority of people think of the climax of this story as the battle between the elements, I see it as the battle between two types of magic represented visually through a white weirwood tree and black oily stone. White magic against the black one. Balance against the lack of it. And in this battle, some major players have switched sides. This will be elaborated further in the first part of my theory. I postulate that there is a core group of people trying their utmost to either change sides themselves or push other individuals and groups to do so.

I like this line of thinking. If "good" in ASOIAF = balance of opposites, as I belive it clearly does, then evil is unbalance, and surely there are those working for such. The red priests desire for a summer without end. Everyone who is re animating the dead. The Warlocks, who have an eternal un-life of some kind, and who rely on the inverted, twisted version of weirwood trees. Etc, etc. I'm curious to see where you go with this.

And while I agree that the Others are no friends of men at the moment, I do see a possibility of an alliance. Why? Because myths about the end of the LN do not talk about a bloody battle that made the Others yield. They talk about the last hero finding CotF who helped him end the LN. Where is that mythical battle in the far north? Where are the tales of heroes who defeated the monsters? There was one man who got help from CotF. What help? How did that help manifest itself?

If we go by AA myth, there was also one man who forged a sword and that sword was instrumental in defeating the threat. Again, do we see an epic battle in which AA stands on the forefront of an army of men fighting the Others? No. So, two core LN myths and no battle. Just one man standing against the whole threat. It is food for thought.

Actually... Not only did they fight the Others, they know a bit about what works and what doesn't, knowledge that comes form experience:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star- Eyes, Night’s King … we say that you’re the nine- hundred- and- ninety- eighth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, but the oldest list I’ve found shows six hundred seventy- four commanders, which suggests that it was written during— ”

“Long ago,” Jon broke in. “What about the Others?”

“I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night’s Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night … or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part’s plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don’t know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls.”

“We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?”

“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

“Dragonsteel?” The term was new to Jon. “ Valyrian steel?”

“That was my first thought as well.”

“So if I can just convince the lords of the Seven Kingdoms to give us their Valyrian blades, all is saved? That won’t be hard.” No harder than asking them to give up their coin and castles . He gave a bitter laugh. “Did you find who the Others are, where they come from, what they want?”

“Not yet, my lord, but it may be that I’ve just been reading the wrong books. There are hundreds I have not looked at yet. Give me more time and I will find whatever there is to be found.”

[Modesty Lannister]

I like this line of thinking. If "good" in ASOIAF = balance of opposites, as I belive it clearly does, then evil is unbalance, and surely there are those working for such. The red priests desire for a summer without end. Everyone who is re animating the dead. The Warlocks, who have an eternal un-life of some kind, and who rely on the inverted, twisted version of weirwood trees. Etc, etc. I'm curious to see where you go with this.

Actually... Not only did they fight the Others, they know a bit about what works and what doesn't, knowledge that comes form experience:

LmL, the quotes you provided prove that men have been fighting the Others. I am not disputing that. The last quote you provided actually proves my point that the LH had been fighting the Others, but there is no mention of any army behind him. We have descriptions of many ancient battles (think of the Vale and the battle between FM and the Andals), but that pivotal battle that should have stayed in collective memory in at least a part of the population is totally missing. That is curious.

[LmL]

LmL, the quotes you provided prove that men have been fighting the Others. I am not disputing that. The last quote you provided actually proves my point that the LH had been fighting the Others, but there is no mention of any army behind him. We have descriptions of many ancient battles (think of the Vale and the battle between FM and the Andals), but that pivotal battle that should have stayed in collective memory in at least a part of the population is totally missing. That is curious.

You said there was no evidence of a battle against the Others, and that the stories of the end of the LN didn't involve a bloody battle that made the Others yield. You are wrong - the fact that the oldest records of the NW have knowledge of facing the Others means.. They have faced the Others. There is no evidence of anyone seeing the Others since the Long Night, so this fighting against the Others must have happened exactly when they say it did - when the Last Hero fought the Others with his dragonsteel blade which they could not stand against. I mean, what part of this isn't clear?

TWOAIF:

How the long night came to end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the north, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight and win the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, 6000 years later (or 8000 as as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Nights Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.

I don't understand your need to explain away the Others and the Last Hero and the Battle for the Dawn. The men of the Nights Watch, led by the last hero with a Dragonsteel sword, got help form the COTF and FOUGHT THE OTHERS. I don't see any clues or indication that this is somehow totally wrong, that we didn't really fight the Others... It really just seems like you're ignoring contradictory evidence because your theory requires humans working with the Others when we have seen no evidence that this is possible. Understanding them? Perhaps. But the Others are inimical to life, they hate hot blood, just as we've been told and just as we have seen. Humans and Others aren't friends.

[Modesty Lannister]

You said there was no evidence of a battle against the Others, and that the stories of the end of the LN didn't involve a bloody battle that made the Others yield. You are wrong - the fact that the oldest records of the NW have knowledge of facing the Others means.. They have faced the Others. There is no evidence of anyone seeing the Others since the Long Night, so this fighting against the Others must have happened exactly when they say it did - when the Last Hero fought the Others with his dragonsteel blade which they could not stand against. I mean, what part of this isn't clear?

TWOAIF:

I don't understand your need to explain away the Others and the Last Hero and the Battle for the Dawn. The men of the Nights Watch, led by the last hero with a Dragonsteel sword, got help form the COTF and FOUGHT THE OTHERS. I don't see any clues or indication that this is somehow totally wrong, that we didn't really fight the Others... It really just seems like you're ignoring contradictory evidence because your theory requires humans working with the Others when we have seen no evidence that this is possible. Understanding them? Perhaps. But the Others are inimical to life, they hate hot blood, just as we've been told and just as we have seen. Humans and Others aren't friends.

I forgot about that quote. That resolves this puzzle (for me at least). Thanks.

I never claimed humans and Others are friends.

[LmL]

I forgot about that quote. That resolves this puzzle (for me at least). Thanks.

I never claimed humans and Others are friends.

Solves the puzzle in what way?

You were suggesting the possibility of the Others being taken into the fold as the wildlings were, than people would need to work with the Others to fight the Deep Ones. I am saying there is little to no evidence to suggest it's possible for humans to work with the Others, who hate everything that has hot blood and freeze the very air around them.

[Modesty Lannister]

Solves the puzzle in what way?

You were suggesting the possibility of the Others being taken into the fold as the wildlings were, than people would need to work with the Others to fight the Deep Ones. I am saying there is little to no evidence to suggest it's possible for humans to work with the Others, who hate everything that has hot blood and freeze the very air around them.

Do we know what the Others hate? Did we meet them really? Wildlings hated the guts out of everything south of the Wall, yet they have moved south themselves. Would you believe just a book before that happened that it is a possibility? Dornishman were never defeated by Targs in battle, but they ended up fighting on Targ side up until the bitter end. So, alliances change. I get that you do not see Others allying with humans, but I can. So, per your own advice given to me, show some patience and when I post my theory, you can debate it to your heart's content.

[LmL]

What I was debating where is your erroneous assertion that there was no story or legend of a battle against the others. I'm of course open to anything we've been told about basically anything being wrong in someway, or twisted around backwards. That's fine and good. But you said there was no evidence of a battle against the others, that none of the stories about the long night mentioned a battle against the others. Plainly this is not the case. Opinions aside, I was clarifying this for the record.

[LmL]

Wasn't it you who was saying we can't compare the unsullied to the wights because the Unsullied are trained, living humans? But you're comparing them to the Wildlings and Dornish?

[Voice]

I am so glad you brought this up. Wildlings have been enemies of men inside 7 kingdoms for thousands of years. So were CotF, giants etc. Then CotF made pact with the FM. Recently Mance Rayder brought wildlings over the Wall and they joined other men. So, the theme of foes turned into friends is a recurring one. I can go on with this theme a lot, but you have to wait for the first instalment of my theory (yes, LmL, you are not the only one who has sequels. Lol.) No one is saying the Others are not perceived as a threat. Of course they are. And so were the wildlings (just read Old Nan's account on the wildlings) and CotF before them.

As for the bolded bit, I would remind you of the Lysa Arryn murder mystery twist. The clues were there all along. GRRM gave us all we needed to know to deduce who killed Jon Arryn, but he first released a smoke screen called "Lysa's letter". And how many readers did not see it coming? Red wedding. All clues were there as well. And how many readers expected what happened? GRRM is the arch master of twists and he does not waste a single line. Do you think he is done with twists? From the experience with 5 books we should know by now that the most important clues are subtle. And scattered. You have to pick them from the stream like Rhaegar's rubies.

Lysa Arryn was not built up as the greatest threat to the Westeros. Twists are one thing, introducing a completely new species, pivotal to the final conflict at the end of the book, is quite another.

Glad you are aware of these passages. The Deep Ones is just a name as LmL pointed out. Call them "undersea creatures", call them Joes from the sea. Call them what you will. It doesn't make much difference. How can they be a greater threat than Others? The answer is very simple indeed. Westeros is surrounded by oceans and all coasts are vulnerable (except from maybe the Dornish one. These people have a trick or two up their sleeve.). So, it can be attacked from west, east and south simultaneously. Others can attack 7 kingdoms if they cross the Wall. They can attack from one side - from the north. So, you do not have to be Doran Martell to evaluate, which threat is strategically greater. And Theon's character with its identity crises may have a major role to play in this part of the saga. Otherwise, what would his greater purpose be?

Theon is cool and all, and incredibly interesting, but his purpose is that of a supporting character, rather than a leading protagonist. The oceans are indeed big, but they have not been alluded to like the Others have. Nor is any threat from sea mentioned in relation to the Long Night.

The Iron born add to the richness of GRRM's world, but theirs is not the song of ice and fire I'm afraid. They are tangential.

GRRM never writes a single action without a firm motive.

Erm. Quentyn Martell.

I'm joking of course, but GRRM is not above using "filler." I submit the tome A Feast for Crows. LOL

Do you think the motive of the Others is mindless "kill, kill, kill" mantra? That would be a motive for the wights since they are ice zombies. You took a great deal of your time to try to figure out the hierarchy of Others. And I respect that effort. But, without a motive that moves that army, your theory cannot stand on two feet, nor on seven. For me, finding out what moves characters and groups is the key. We can argue until the cows come home (like you and Wolfsmaid7 do) about who moves the wights, how come we didn't see ice spiders etc. But, when you find a relevant motive that moves them, then you have a whole theory. I hope you do find it.

I'm all for open debate, but that seems rude to undermine the theory so broadly because it doesn't discuss everything you'd like. If you read through the comments you will find suggested motives. If you read the OP through until the end, you will find another. This thread is not about the purpose of the Others, however.

I prefer to think of this thread simply as a nomenclature, a classification system, and means of identifying three classes of Others, rather than a theory. But to each his own. In terms of the thread, the focus is on their Hierarchy, rather than their purpose. In it, we've delved into the strategic and militaristic benefits of the hierarchy that seems to exist.

So, with all due respect, yes, I think it does stand on its own two feet. The second iteration (shameless plug for sequel warning! ;)) will deal with their origin and purpose. I think it's clear that the intent of this thread is to get people thinking about the Others more critically, and to remind people that the threat they pose has not been fully realized yet (and now that winter is come, it will be).

For the purpose I intended, I think it has succeeded and produced much worthwhile discussion. There are, of course, exceptions to that as well ;)

I'm neither. I'm just throwing back your own assertion about me being overconfident right back at you. Like a frisbee. You threw it first. B)

Very cool. Hard to tell sometimes in this medium if folks are getting hot under the collar or not. I know my own humor often doesn't translate very well in text... I'm all for some springtime frisbee :)

Well, she is as human as Beric or Coldhands. They just don't wear glamours. Beric remembers who he was and so does Coldhands. Would you classify them as human? You do not know what Bloodraven eats. Bran eats and I suppose Bloodraven does as well. So, do not go into that comparison. It may lead us too far astray.

Let me first counter by saying, you, do not know what Mel eats. In fact, we've seen her eat and drink more than Bloodraven already...

I think it is a far more apt comparison, and will use it as I wish, thank you. Mel is far more like BR than she is Coldhands. Her body is fed magically, rather than by food and drink. I have a hunch you haven't read through all the comments and I don't blame you, the thread has grown :D

It's worth repeating anyway, I think. Here are my thoughts on Beric, Coldhands, and how they (don't) fit in with our inhuman Others. But before I paste it, let me say, Beric and Coldhands are far more human than are the Others. As our author states, "The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous."

Beric and Coldhands:

I used to group Beric in an odd men out group with Coldhands and Stoneheart. Obviously, there were some problems with that. Stoneheart is a woman, first of all. Coldhands is cold.

Beric is very unique. His blood is hot. It isn't a bubbling, smoking, black tar, like our corrupted shadowbinder Mel's blood. It is simply hot, like a living man's blood. While Coldhands exhibits signs of corpse-hood, blood coagulation and the smell of death, Beric exhibits scars. That means Beric is truly alive. He doesn't have a huge appetite, but he'll eat and drink wine on occasion. His body is functioning, rather than being maintained by magic alone. Magic has only returned the will to function to his body.

You guys know I'm big on classifying these guys, and I tend to split semantic hairs quite obsessively, but hey, someone has to... Anyway, this has led me to group Beric, and likely Stoneheart, much differently.

Beric's body lives again.

Coldhands' body does not.

We also learn from Beric that each time he returns he feels like less of himself... diminished... I think that is because he is only his living body. His brain retains his memories and identity, but it is fading because his soul no longer invigorates them. I propose his soul moved on with his first death.

If a kiss restores Jon, it will no longer be Jon. His blood will remain hot. He'll laugh with his brother on occasion, and share their table. But it will be hollow. He'll have a long face, grey eyes so dark they look almost black, and remember who he was, but he will not be Jon. Ghost will no longer be bound to him, nor like him much. And Ghost was conspicuously absent from his side when Jon had his armored in black ice dream.

Now, thankfully, that need not happen as GRRM has given us that "so you think he's dead, do you" quote.

So getting back to Coldhands and Stoneheart. Catelyn endured her corpse-hood for longer than Beric, so she decomposed a bit more, and her body was waterlogged. She shows signs of this, but I have a feeling her body is functioning again, just less well. Like someone who's been severely injured, and then only half-recovered. But her blood is undoubtedly hot, and her soul has undoubtedly moved on. She remembers her life, remembers who she was, because that data is stored in her brain tissue...as it was for Beric. But her soul has moved on. She was never a forgiving person, but now she's Lady Stoneheart. I'm surprised she never came up in my Bran's Vision thread as the third shadow at the Trident. Anyway, she's alive now. As her rasping voice implies the passage of air, and therefore, inhalation and exhalation.

Anyway, back to Coldhands. Magic alone maintains his body. His body is dead, moveable like a puppet on strings, but not living. His body cannot heal, nor even breathe. The smell of cold death clings to him. But, rather than being a living vessel without a soul, he is a dead vessel with a living soul. That honestly sounds like a preferable existence, strange as it may be.

This brings me to wights and white walkers, and it's something I've brought up before in reference to Ancient Others, hierarchical discussions, and the ice golem idea.

Wights are not living dead, only reanimated dead. Though characters assume they remembered LC Mormont, and wanted to attack him, I've been saying for a while that I think that assumption is wrong. The force than animates them knows who Mormont was, and wanted him dead. Wish granted. Anyway, wights are not like Beric and Stoneheart. Their bodies, while somewhat mobile, do not live again. They are not like Coldhands, their souls do not endure. In this way, they are far more like golems than popsicles are. Golems do not speak. Speaking of popsicles...

White walkers are not dead. Yet they do not live as we live. They are inhuman, another form of life. One, that does not depend on biological functions to thrive. In place of biological functions, they have magical innards. Being the unnatural, half-forgotten, demons of legend they are, they cannot sustain life doing all the same, fun ;) biological activities we are blessed with. In the stead, they are neverborn. How do neverborn propagate? Well, they clearly take no wives and father no sons, so they must harvest the living. Craster's cannot have been the only sons they've harvested. We've seen no dead babies in the wildling camps, and no infant wights...nor even child-wights.

So while Beric and Stoneheart are soul-less living flesh, wights are soul-less reanimated flesh, white walkers are living souls given full-grown sidhe, neverborn, bodies made of ice. Unlike Mel's shadowbabies, procured from a living man's seed, but like them, they stand as tall as a man and know how to swing a blade. Also, unlike them, they have physical bodies. Hell, they even have a soul. It just wasn't always their own :devil: This explains why they have identities, language, humor, and laughter. That's more than we can say of Lady Stoneheart.

Here's where my ideas may become less popular... The Others that first came in the long night, my Ancient Others, predate this process. They are not spoken of in the same manner as white walkers. They hunt using ice spiders. Rather than being vulnerable to a substance called dragonglass...they were vulnerable to a substance called dragonsteel. The 1993 letter makes it clear that it is they who raise the neverborn. The show may have spoiled this, but in any case, we have it from the author now:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Now, the neverborn term makes a lot more sense. They are not merely ice golems. They are an entirely new form of life. Or, at least it used to be new...back when the Ancient Others first made them. In past heresies and my hierarchy thread I've laid out the military advantages of this process. Ancient Others command and gather intelligence. White walkers are field infantry (haha, infants!), and wights are at times cannon fodder, at others vanguard, and at others boobytraps. Ancient Others are least expendable...they cannot be replaced or recreated. White walkers are expendable, but not without inconvenience...gotta go collect another babe in the woods every time you make a new one. And wights are as numerous as corpses on a battlefield...toss a few dozen at the Fist, just for shits and giggles.

I have already explained twice how I break down that sentence (to Wolfsmaid7 and to LmL on this thread). So, pls, don't make me do that trice. We may disagree on this, but no need for endless repetition.

Sure, not a problem. The sentence speaks so clearly on its own, in my opinion, there's no need to discuss it anyway... For anyone new to the thread, I'll repost it here for reference:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

And finally, I will end with this remark. While the majority of people think of the climax of this story as the battle between the elements, I see it as the battle between two types of magic represented visually through a white weirwood tree and black oily stone. White magic against the black one. Balance against the lack of it. And in this battle, some major players have switched sides. This will be elaborated further in the first part of my theory. I postulate that there is a core group of people trying their utmost to either change sides themselves or push other individuals and groups to do so. And while I agree that the Others are no friends of men at the moment, I do see a possibility of an alliance. Why? Because myths about the end of the LN do not talk about a bloody battle that made the Others yield. They talk about the last hero finding CotF who helped him end the LN. Where is that mythical battle in the far north? Where are the tales of heroes who defeated the monsters? There was one man who got help from CotF. What help? How did that help manifest itself?

It's a cool idea. It doesn't seem to dismiss this hierarchy in any way. But it is a cool idea. I had a feeling this is what you were getting at with your 'Deep Ones' stuff.

I think GRRM already has enough on his plate to resolve with one group of "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others" without adding another ancient race into the mix.

No doubt, the tale has grown since he wrote that letter in 1993. So I remain open to the possibility, but thus far, the published text has proven the validity of this paragraph:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Deep Ones suddenly arriving on the scene to throw a wrench in the status quo would be earth-shatteringly awesome, but would do little and less to resolve the many loose ends and plot dynamics we have before us. I'm thinking of such trifles as: the Stark connection to Winter, Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, the purpose of the Wall, and the Targaryen Queen with three dragons.

Ironborn mythology, and Patchface's musings are not unimportant, but they are not central. I think this difference in opinion is the root of most of our disagreement.

If we go by AA myth, there was also one man who forged a sword and that sword was instrumental in defeating the threat. Again, do we see an epic battle in which AA stands on the forefront of an army of men fighting the Others? No. So, two core LN myths and no battle. Just one man standing against the whole threat. It is food for thought.

Is this directed at me? Doesn't seem related. But yes, there is lore of a battle occurring. I'm not sure what your point is. I'm reminded of this passage from ASOS, Samwell V:

"You are." The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. "Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

[Modesty Lannister]

Lysa Arryn was not built up as the greatest threat to the Westeros. Twists are one thing, introducing a completely new species, pivotal to the final conflict at the end of the book, is quite another.

Theon is cool and all, and incredibly interesting, but his purpose is that of a supporting character, rather than a leading protagonist. The oceans are indeed big, but they have not been alluded to like the Others have. Nor is any threat from sea mentioned in relation to the Long Night.

The Iron born add to the richness of GRRM's world, but theirs is not the song of ice and fire I'm afraid. They are tangential.

Lysa Arryn and The Red Wedding were examples on how GRRM weaves his web. And I wouldn't say Lysa Arryn was not important. That murder started the chain of events in AGOT. So, it is very important. As is the Red Wedding.

The Ironborn add to the richness? Lol. Hello?!? What's going on? You missed the whole Euron Greyly (the most evil of all characters) plot. Theon's arc is one of the most complex in the books. Brienne has the whole journey that introduces Crabs. So, does Davos. Tyron is travelling through greyscale infested waters. Jon Con is infected with greyscale. Shireen is a greyscale carrier. Melisandre sees a girl on a grey horse travelling along streams and a lake. Lord Hightower has been locked in his tower for ages dwelling in dark magic. No, really. Nothing is happening regarding the sea, water and water magic. If you actually compared the number of chapters that are dealing with the Others with the number of chapters that are dealing with a danger coming out of the sea and water, I am afraid you would be very surprised.

I prefer to think of this thread simply as a nomenclature, a classification system, and means of identifying three classes of Others, rather than a theory. But to each his own. In terms of the thread, the focus is on their Hierarchy, rather than their purpose. In it, we've delved into the strategic and militaristic benefits of the hierarchy that seems to exist.

So, with all due respect, yes, I think it does stand on its own two feet. The second iteration (shameless plug for sequel warning! ;)) will deal with their origin and purpose. I think it's clear that the intent of this thread is to get people thinking about the Others more critically, and to remind people that the threat they pose has not been fully realized yet (and now that winter is come, it will be).

For the purpose I intended, I think it has succeeded and produced much worthwhile discussion. There are, of course, exceptions to that as well ;)

If you go back up the thread, you will see that tis whole debate was not started by my response to the OP, but by my response to what Wolfsmaid 7 has said. I'm glad you are going to deal with the purpose of the Others. That is crucial. I don't mind hierarchies and theories about them, but what moves a group is its purpose. If you manage to tie the two together, then it's a great contribution. Cannot wait.

Very cool. Hard to tell sometimes in this medium if folks are getting hot under the collar or not. I know my own humor often doesn't translate very well in text... I'm all for some springtime frisbee :)

Spring is the time for outdoor activities. That is why they start a new season of GoT. Lol. B)

Let me first counter by saying, you, do not know what Mel eats. In fact, we've seen her eat and drink more than Bloodraven already...

(snip)

Now, the neverborn term makes a lot more sense. They are not merely ice golems. They are an entirely new form of life. Or, at least it used to be new...back when the Ancient Others first made them. In past heresies and my hierarchy thread I've laid out the military advantages of this process. Ancient Others command and gather intelligence. White walkers are field infantry (haha, infants!), and wights are at times cannon fodder, at others vanguard, and at others boobytraps. Ancient Others are least expendable...they cannot be replaced or recreated. White walkers are expendable, but not without inconvenience...gotta go collect another babe in the woods every time you make a new one. And wights are as numerous as corpses on a battlefield...toss a few dozen at the Fist, just for shits and giggles.

I read this and I agree with you classification of never born and wights and your reasoning. However, Melisandre is not human. She eats and drinks to keep pretences. She doesn't need to. That's what we learn from her POV. Blooraven is tied to a tree. So, even if he is slowly turning into it and is being fed by the tree, he is still fed. His metabolism is probably in tune with the tree. Hence the long life greenseers manage. The former (Mel) is an example what dark magic does to a human while the latter is an example what white magic does to a human. I'd say BR is still very much human and organic while Mel is not. All undead characters (regardless of their differences) are not human anymore. I agree there is a difference in how they came to be, but they are still undead. Beric imho was not revived by Thoros, but by BR, but that is a question for a different thread. So, we agree more than we disagree on this.

It's a cool idea. It doesn't seem to dismiss this hierarchy in any way. But it is a cool idea. I had a feeling this is what you were getting at with your 'Deep Ones' stuff.

Exactly. This IS what I am getting at. This is a song of Ice and Fire. They have to unite to win. Everyone expects ice to fight fire. I do not expect that at all. The whole story is set in a way that you have forces of balance and forces of chaos. These forces will meet and the side, which has more allies will prevail. But, no side can win completely (law of entropy). Hence, the bitter-sweet ending GRRM announced. And yes, that idea does not go against the hierarchy of the Others. It goes against the idea that they are THE threat. They are perceived as a threat by majority. But, things are never run by majorities. So, wait for my theory in full. That's why I said my response to your theory would be too long for a post.

I think GRRM already has enough on his plate to resolve with one group of "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others" without adding another ancient race into the mix...

I think you are sticking to this first proposal way too much. And you cannot just pick and choose. GRRM abandoned most of the things from his proposal or altered them beyond recognition. Why would he stick to this one to the letter? Imho the books diverted from that a long time ago. Not that the Others do not have a role to play. Oh, they do.

Deep Ones suddenly arriving on the scene to throw a wrench in the status quo would be earth-shatteringly awesome, but would do little and less to resolve the many loose ends and plot dynamics we have before us. I'm thinking of such trifles as: the Stark connection to Winter, Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, the purpose of the Wall, and the Targaryen Queen with three dragons.

Ironborn mythology, and Patchface's musings are not unimportant, but they are not central. I think this difference in opinion is the root of most of our disagreement.

Well, just look who is on the Wall now.

Is this directed at me? Doesn't seem related. But yes, there is lore of a battle occurring. I'm not sure what your point is. I'm reminded of this passage from ASOS, Samwell V:

"You are." The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. "Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

No. It wasn't directed at you at all. Just an afterthought. Sorry. But, LmL provided a quote that resolved my dilemma. You provided another. Thanks. There are so many things one thinks about that it is easy to forget important quotes.

:cheers:

[Evolett]

I’ve been following the discussion for a couple of days now and I think Modesty L’s observation that there is something in addition to the Others we have seen out there has some merit. The term ‘Others’ is in itself ambiguous and in Westeros, as well as in reader’s minds, has been established to denote ‘a group of evil inhuman white beings of ice whose main purpose is to destroy mankind’. Others could certainly refer to one homologous group of people, but history has shown as that Others often encompass a heterogeneous variety of peoples with differing racial and cultural backgrounds come together in a common cause. The story often gives us reason to question the idea that they the Others as represented by the white walkers might be the only race of Others. I’ll try to explain this with a few examples that I’ve noticed.

The first inkling I had comes from Old Nan herself. She specifically begins a tale about white walkers. Bran then says querulously: ‘you mean the Others’. Old Nan agrees and begins a story about the Others. Now, we can take this to mean that Nan sees white walkers as synonymous with Others but I don’t think she does. Bran is querulous. He’s a very unhappy boy at the moment and everyone tries to satisfy his wishes. Nan herself is very aware of his unhappiness. She initially tries to please him by suggesting his favourite story, one about Bran the Builder. But Bran wants a scary one. She begins a story about white walkers and Bran is querulous. He suggests she means the Others and Nan agrees. Nan appears to be responding to Bran’s wishes all the time, imo. In fact, she begins with an introduction to the story about Others and then asks Bran again, as if to make sure he'll be happy with this story:

So, child. This is the sort of story you like?

I think she responds by telling him a story, not about white walkers, but about the group of Others. This group may include white walkers but it may also include another race or races as well. We see ww established as ‘Others’ in the prologue to the series so they appear to be part of the group. To avoid confusion, I shall refer to these Others exclusively as white walkers.

We’ve seen white walkers, we know what they look like, that they live in an icy environment and operate in darkness and so on. But Nan does not describe white walkers. She describes cold things, dead things (ww may be cold but I don’t think they are dead). There seem to be hordes of them, sweeping over holdfasts and kingdoms. Is she only describing wights? I don’t think so. They exhibit some kind of intelligence. They organise hunts, specifically targeting maidens, babes and children. They hate iron. There is proof that ww are vulnerable to obsidian. They cannot be vanquished with steel of which iron is a major component. Who are these then, that are vulnerable to iron? I wouldn’t say wights are vulnerable to iron either.

The second third hint that Others may be more than they seem comes when Old Nan mentions the trees:

Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch.

Weirwoods once populated the whole of Westeros. In this quote the trees are keeping watch. They see and also record what is happening. But they are also Watchmen because a greenseer looking through the eyes of a weirwood also sees current events. What are they watching out south of the wall for? White walkers? White Walkers can only venture forth south in wintery conditions. Is there something else that does not require ice and snow to survive, something ‘other’ capable of surviving under normal weather conditions, something that needs watching out for?

But that is not all that warrants questioning. I see the point wolfmaid7 makes about ww not being around when wights attack. There are no ww present at the FoFM, neither is there one present when wights turn up to attack Sam and Gilly. Gilly thinks ww are coming for her baby but there is no ww anywhere around, only wights and they seem more intent on killing Sam than bothering with Gilly and her baby initially. Do we really know for sure that ww raise the dead? We’ve never seen a ww casting a spell to make that happen. They may be doing this from afar but we don’t know that for sure.

Since writing up that essay on crabs, many more things have come to my notice. One concerns the imagery surrounding the white walkers and the parallels that emerge regarding the Kingsguard.

GRRM describes white walkers as ‘white shadows’. This term is only also applied to members of the Kingsguard, notably to Barristan Selmy, Ser Balon Swann and Mandon Moore. Ghost is also described as a white shadow. He protects Jon. In my essay I say the ww are possibly a counterpart to the NW, but the above rather suggests a parallel with the Kingsguard. In fact, to further support this, note their attire and the entirely white décor that makes up the chambers of the Kingsguard and the name of the tower – White Sword Tower. We’ve only seen six ww in a group so far. Is / was there a seventh? Members of the Kingsguard are experts in their field, the epitome of chivalry and ability and yet the KG is as corrupt as it’s ever been. Ser Mandon tried to kill Tyrion and was killed by Podrick, a rather withdrawn green boy who reminds me a bit of Sam, who also killed a ww. If this idea has merit, then the ww may be seen as protectors of a higher elite. Who are they bound to protect? Have they become corrupt? Have they been corrupted by the current higher elite?

There is much more that needs a closer look at, methinks. I would even partially discard my crab theory because of this questioning process. I still think it is relevant, but by no means correct or complete.

As to Patchface, his ‘prophecies’ definitely tell a story about the Others, whoever they are as a group. Total agreement with ML on my part. I’ve always interpreted them in terms of ww though and without getting into all that, must admit that that point of view throws up certain discrepancies which are difficult to explain in terms of ww alone. Maybe that quote about the Sphinx being the riddle and not the riddler even points to Patchface; the Sphinx representing the entity or reason behind the riddle and Patchface the riddler – he does speak in riddles… in other words, the one posing the riddle (Patchface) is not important. Deciphering the riddle itself is important.

There are also signs that Littlefinger and the Vale will play a large and sinister role in the end game. I haven’t figured it out yet but think of this:

Why would the Vale and the North fight over three miserable islands, The Sisters, for centuries?

The Royces are descendants of the FM, they are from the Vale and the first thing we are introduced to is a Royce being killed by a ww or representative of an Other.

Why was the Eyrie built 600 feet up? It’s even higher than that considering the valley. It’s probably as high as the Wall and almost impossible to take by ground forces because of the way castles. Is it an 'inland Wall'? We have no weirwood tree there but we do have a weirwood throne that might serve as one.

Well, I personally haven’t come to any definite conclusions about Deep Ones or anything else but the evidence between the lines is suggestive of something more out there than white walkers alone.

[Voice]

Good stuff. I'm not opposed to Deep Ones, nor any lore. But we've no reason to link the lore of the Deep Ones to northern events, nor the Others of the long night. I'm trying to keep my responses briefer, but I agree with you Evolett, and much of what ML said above. Not all, of course, but much doesn't seem all that different from my own thinking, particularly the merits of playing frisbee outdoors :) Some fundamental differences will have to remain. We are all unique people after all. It is only the Others who would want us all to be the same ;)

[Voice]

Bit more comic relief :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpSsqoveIS4

[Modesty Lannister]

Bit more comic relief :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpSsqoveIS4

And for today's season opening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqgdyn6wg7E