The Hierarchy of the Others

[wolfmaid7]

We've seen wights. They're not exactly smart. There is no way they are coordinated enough to attack from North and South simultaneously on their own.

And while I agree wights were certainly in abundance, it seems they were not alone. Consider this:

His own mother was a thousand leagues south, safe with his sisters and his little brother Dickon in the keep at Horn Hill. She can't hear me, no more than the Mother Above. The Mother was merciful, all the septons agreed, but the Seven had no power beyond the Wall. This was where the old gods ruled, the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows. "Mercy," he whispered then, to whatever might be listening, old gods or new, or demons too, "oh, mercy, mercy me, mercy me."

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

Sobbing, he took another step.

It sounds as if Samwell saw more than just a horde of wights at the Fist.

And it seems as if whoever attacked them knew they were unprepared, not only for retreat, but for the foemen they were about to face. The Night's Watch had spent their time fortifying the Fist against a wildling attack. Had they known wights would give them battle, they no doubt would have prepared for them much differently. I think this speaks to some degree of intel on the other side. They knew it would be a massacre.

<snip>

Voice you know that quote is not proof wws were at the fist.Sam was doing what most characters have done see wights and assume wws.When they blow the horn do you think it's because they see wws,no they see wights.Not to mention there is a mountain of text that proves that no one on that Fist saw wws until Ser Puddles rode up on Sam and Company.You also know that the wws have nothing to do with the cold coming or not..we have the answer to that.

The Wights have shown they are capable of attacking doing stealth runs without any help from wws why because wws aren't controlling them.Consider this an we shall take it bit by bit.

What was seen at the Fist:

Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn****

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold "

Yes" said Sam ,but is it the cold that brings the Wights or the Wights that bring the cold?" Who cares they come together.(Sam,asos,pg.448-449).

First a riddle is being asked here and answered;it concerns who brings what.From the mouth of babes Grenn gives the right answer they come together because what brings them is in and a part of them.

"He emerged beneath a sky the color of white lead. A snow sky, Sam thought, squinting up. The*prospect made him uneasy. He remembered that night on the Fist of the First Men when the

wights and the snows had come together.(affc sam chpt 5)."

Notice Both Sam and Grenn only speak of the Wights,no mention of actually seeing wws.As you read further it is validated even more where Sam is thinking that Craster's keep from where it sits won't stop the wights that were "swarming"

wws not being at the scene or observed is supported again when Mormont asked Sam while on the Fist to send word back to CB.No mention of wws only what the Wights were doing.Also in Jon's question to Sam about the Others his reply is limited to what he saw concening Ser Puddles.Why because as stated before when Ser Puddles rode in on Mawney's horse it was the first time Sam saw a ww and not before.Look at his reaction and take that into consideration when he spoke to Jon.

The dragonglass dagger had melted the "pale thing in the woods", true ... but Grenn was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he thought. We don't know anything, really."

The cold brings them both because there is something in it(GS).

Sorry for the length Voice.

But lets play Devils advocate and say wws were present.It woud be impossible to see them.

Can anyone logically tell me if anyone can pick out a lean bone white figure with blue eyes,wearing camo among or in the back of hundreds of wights clamouring up a hill in a blizzard. When you not only can't see what's in front of you, but visibility is so bad you can't see your own men,bearly the torches and your own men are getting lost because they can't see where they are going in said blizzard.

Grenn told a funny story about how he was chasized for loosing his horse.He said the snow was white the horse was white how was he expected to find it.

GRRM is putting clues that prompts questioning the stories we have been told.I'm an Epidemiologists and a Global health worker by profession and one of the things that is expected of us when interviewing individuals is to take their info yes but does it match up with what hard evidence and critical thinking is showing us.

Taking a retrospective look at Nan's stories is a great way to determine what is true and what is subjective.We have conditions that are no where near in severity to what Nan described and already we see not only flaws in the stories but in the conclusions.

Based on the textual evidence one cannot say that wws were observed on the Fist and this is concluded from three things.

1.What Sam and Grenn said and reported continually in conversation with each other and others.

2.Conditions that make it possible for wws to be observed.

3.What we the readers objectively see.

[Evolett]

Voice you know that quote is not proof wws were at the fist.Sam was doing what most characters have done see wights and assume wws.When they blow the horn do you think it's because they see wws,no they see wights.Not to mention there is a mountain of text that proves that no one on that Fist saw wws until Ser Puddles rode up on Sam and Company.

The Wights have shown they are capable of attacking doing stealth runs without any help from wws why because wws aren't controlling them.

I will posts the texts in a bit including a nicely placed clue GRRM gave.....Grenn's White horse lost in the snow .

Voice's comparison of wights with Unsullied is valid. Before they were freed we understood that they are bound to absolutely obey orders from above. They can still be counted on to carry out a mission to completion once orders are given and for this the main commander does not have to be on site. I think much like the Unsullied, wights will go to a site and carry out orders given from above. I see no reason for ww to be present every time wights show up. This does not mean that wights are not under their control or that they don't receive orders from them.

[LmL]

LmL, when you get a chance, I'm curious what you thought of this comment:

I saw it and am storing it away as a possibility. It's an interesting idea, and as I said I do think the trees are tying the continent together or making it making it "alive" somehow. I had had the idea previously that the Others are a magical response to the dark fire magic running rampant under Azor Ahai, generated by the earth itself. The idea that the Others came about a couple thousand years after the pact seems off to me; if they made a pact and stopped cutting trees, everything should have been ok, or at least in a holding pattern. And however the Others were stopped, why didn't they come again when the Andals came and really started cutting down trees? Sacred places like the High Heart? The Others should have come, because the Andals came 6,000 years ago.

So while I like the general concept, it seems to me that the Others, if generated by the planet itself as an immune response (to either the fire magic or weirwood chopping), wouldn't need a couple thousand years to manifest. Autoimmune responses are made immediately in the natural world, it's just not worth much if it takes a couple thousand years. It wouldn't have been in time to do anything about the weirwoods - they would have been gone by then if not for the pact.

That's why I belive it makes more sense that they manifested at the beginning of the Long Night, as a response to whatever was happening at that moment. My hunch is that they either simply manifested because of the prolonged cold and darkness (their natural environment) or that the dark fire magic caused the earth to respond and produce them.

I'm still open to the idea they were humans who discovered the heart of winter and changed themselves - I'm just not sure how that fits in to the narrative of the Dawn Age / LN events.

[wolfmaid7]

Voice's comparison of wights with Unsullied is valid. Before they were freed we understood that they are bound to absolutely obey orders from above. They can still be counted on to carry out a mission to completion once orders are given and for this the main commander does not have to be on site. I think much like the Unsullied, wights will go to a site and carry out orders given from above. I see no reason for ww to be present every time wights show up. This does not mean that wights are not under their control or that they don't receive orders from them.

Reposting this and adding:

The issue with comparing wights to unsullied is there is a magical component that trumps all.Not to mention the fact that the unsullied are capable of free will.The Wights are always tethered always connected.No difference between a skinchanger and his thrall.The bond always exist even when separated.e.g V6's animals could wonder far and wide.But he always held his animals against their will until Mel fried his behind severed his bonds and his animals bolted.

There doesn't need to have an uneccassary step of the wws.they may have already served ther purpose which was to ensure a Mary/Martha situation on Good Friday.Witnesses to go tell that the Others are back.In every case that was the end result.

From Fisher Folk spotting a ww on the shore,to Will,Gared,Sam and Grenn all left so they could tell.Two of them would have probably lived had they all run off and not fight.

What was seen at the Fist:

Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn****

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold "

Yes" said Sam ,but is it the cold that brings the Wights or the Wights that bring the cold?" Who cares they come together.(Sam,asos,pg.448-449).

First a riddle is being asked here and answered;it concerns who brings what.From the mouth of babes Grenn gives the right answer they come together because what brings them is in and a part of them.

"He emerged beneath a sky the color of white lead. A snow sky, Sam thought, squinting up. The*prospect made him uneasy. He remembered that night on the Fist of the First Men when the

wights and the snows had come together.(affc sam chpt 5)."

Notice Both Sam and Grenn only speak of the Wights,no mention of actually seeing wws.As you read further it is validated even more where Sam is thinking that Craster's keep from where it sits won't stop the wights that were "swarming"

wws not being at the scene or observed is supported again when Mormont asked Sam while on the Fist to send word back to CB.No mention of wws only what the Wights were doing.Also in Jon's question to Sam about the Others his reply is limited to what he saw concening Ser Puddles.Why because as stated before when Ser Puddles rode in on Mawney's horse it was the first time Sam saw a ww and not before.Look at his reaction and take that into consideration when he spoke to Jon.

The dragonglass dagger had melted the "pale thing in the woods", true ... but Grenn was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he thought. We don't know anything, really."

The cold brings them both because there is something in it(GS).

Sorry for the length Voice.

But lets play Devils advocate and say wws were present.It woud be impossible to see them.

Can anyone logically tell me if anyone can pick out a lean bone white figure with blue eyes,wearing camo among or in the back of hundreds of wights clamouring up a hill in a blizzard. When you not only can't see what's in front of you, but visibility is so bad you can't see your own men,bearly the torches and your own men are getting lost because they can't see where they are going in said blizzard.

Grenn told a funny story about how he was chasized for loosing his horse.He said the snow was white the horse was white how was he expected to find it.

GRRM is putting clues that prompts questioning the stories we have been told.I'm an Epidemiologists and a Global health worker by profession and one of the things that is expected of us when interviewing individuals is to take their info yes but does it match up with what hard evidence and critical thinking is showing us.

Taking a retrospective look at Nan's stories is a great way to determine what is true and what is subjective.We have conditions that are no where near in severity to what Nan described and already we see not only flaws in the stories but in the conclusions.

Based on the textual evidence one cannot say that wws were observed on the Fist and this is concluded from three things.

1.What Sam and Grenn said and reported continually in conversation with each other and others.

2.Conditions that make it possible for wws to be observed non existent.

3.What we the readers objectively see.

[LmL]

I've also been looking at wildfire in terms of dealing with the cold perpetuated by the wights. Blanket-freezing would give the Others a huge advantage all round, which needs to be countered or balanced somehow. Makes me also wonder what Aerys originally had in mind when he deposited wildfire throughout KL. And wildfire has become one of Cersei's obsessions. I'm also speculating on the cold as a required ingredient in the spells that raise the dead. On another note, I'm making progress with my Patchface investigation and am convinced his so called prophecies are not really prophecies as such - instead they hold clues and information surrounding the Others. I suspect this pronouncement reveals the types of fire required to fight the Others:

Green fire = wildfire, Black = dragonfire, Blue =?. There is a passage somewhere describing the hottest types of fire as well, can't think of the wording right now.

I think we are in for something momentous - check this out from Dany's last chapter in ADWD:

Spider crabs, red crabs now ants.... just saying :-D

So... Dragonfire for the black fire? That's interesting, since I have my little theory that Lightbringer was a weapon of dark flame, red and black like Drogon and Balerion's fire. The wildfire is indeed green, and Patches gives that quote about green and black and blue flame right before Stannis pulls "lightbringer" from the pyre, and it burns with green flame. Wildfire, clearly. I had always taken this scene as an allusion the wildfire at Kings Landing, and it surely is that, but of course it could be pulling triple duty. I will bounce this idea around.

Blue fire = Dawn. We also saw blue fire swords in Jamie's weirwood stump dream. I'm still not sure exactly what to make of that, since Jamie had not been given Oathkeeper yet, which was a part of Ned's Ice (which in turn I belive to be Azor Ahai's dark fire sword). I'm not sure if he was dreaming of the future or what. He did see Arthur Dayne in that dream, as well as Ned, so it's hard to say.

Great catch on the ants and the wall. I feel like that was an obvious one, staring us all in the face. The climbed over the wall... Like spiders.

[LmL]

Lol I think we've found the appropriate way to refer to Samwell

I will accept "owner of the fat pink mast" or "fat pink masted-one."

Bonus for "Fat Pink Master of Puppets" or "chronic master-bearer."

And there's always "Mast-bear-pig," the biggest threat since global warming.

[Evolett]

So... Dragonfire for the black fire? That's interesting, since I have my little theory that Lightbringer was a weapon of dark flame, red and black like Drogon and Balerion's fire. The wildfire is indeed green, and Patches gives that quote about green and black and blue flame right before Stannis pulls "lightbringer" from the pyre, and it burns with green flame. Wildfire, clearly. I had always taken this scene as an allusion the wildfire at Kings Landing, and it surely is that, but of course it could be pulling triple duty. I will bounce this idea around.

Blue fire = Dawn. We also saw blue fire swords in Jamie's weirwood stump dream. I'm still not sure exactly what to make of that, since Jamie had not been given Oathkeeper yet, which was a part of Ned's Ice (which in turn I belive to be Azor Ahai's dark fire sword). I'm not sure if he was dreaming of the future or what. He did see Arthur Dayne in that dream, as well as Ned, so it's hard to say.

Great catch on the ants and the wall. I feel like that was an obvious one, staring us all in the face. The climbed over the wall... Like spiders.

Drogon's fire is variously described as black or black shot with red, giving the overall impression that it's predominantly black. Then all those references to 'black blood' that I'm yet to look into. There is also this quote here about the potency of different kinds of fire:

The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their substance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the earth, and the summer sun. AFFC, Cersei III

As to Patchface - his quotes are ambiguous enough to carry multiple meaning (note the 'bells which ring in different voices' - I have to revise and refine my essay regarding this). They can be interpreted in isolation or as a series, kind of like a story. I'm still working on that for the next essay which tackles his songs and pronouncements.

Edit: references to blue fire are really, really vague. There is another interesting one when Dany sees Drogo rising from the pyre -

She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame.

[Evolett]

Reposting this and adding:

The issue with comparing wights to unsullied is there is a magical component that trumps all.Not to mention the fact that the unsullied are capable of free will.The Wights are always tethered always connected.No difference between a skinchanger and his thrall.The bond always exist even when separated.e.g V6's animals could wonder far and wide.But he always held his animals against their will until Mel fried his behind severed his bonds and his animals bolted.

There doesn't need to have an uneccassary step of the wws.they may have already served ther purpose which was to ensure a Mary/Martha situation on Good Friday.Witnesses to go tell that the Others are back.In every case that was the end result.

From Fisher Folk spotting a ww on the shore,to Will,Gared,Sam and Grenn all left so they could tell.Two of them would have probably lived had they all run off and not fight.

Interesting observations. I'll go away and think about this.

I read your excellent thread on Those who Sing. Very insightful and a great help with my examination of Patchface. I always thought the fact that he sings some of his so called prophecies is important but couldn't quite put my finger on it. Congrats for figuring that out :cheers:

[LmL]

Also from Drogo's pyre:

Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun- and- stars, yes, mount now, ride now .

[LmL]

This from Jamie's weirwood stump dream:

Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”

“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps...

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound... but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”

The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. in this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

[Modesty Lannister]

I want to add something to what Wolfmaid7 has already said about the wights.

First of all, we are not sure that all the consciousness is gone from the wights. If we look at the attack on Mormont, we do not know if it was an order a wight was obeying, was it its instinct to destroy the nearest source of life force or was it some old grudge that leaped to life or a combination of some of these three elements. We have an assessment that "bones remember" and we should remember that.

Secondly, we have Coldhands who not only does not attack Sam, Gilly and the baby, nor does he attack Bran&Co, but escorts them to Bloodraven. People say he is a singularity. How do we know that? He is hostile to the wights. That is a fact.

Thirdly, I agree with Wolfmaid7 that no comparison with the Unsullied is possible. They are human beings trained to obey for years. No magic is involved. The wights are most likely skinchanged into. How, by whom and to what purpose are the main questions.

TWOIAF opens new possibilities to us:

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.

TWOIAF - Ancient History: The Long Night

and

Long before the coming of the First Men, all Westeros belonged to the elder races—the children of the forest and the giants (and, some say, the Others, the terrifying "white walkers" of the Long Night).

TWOIAF - The Stormlands: The Coming of the First Men

These two things, along with GRRM's old assessment that Others have been misunderstood, should be taken into consideration.

Furthermore, from my profession's POV, I immensely enjoy the term "The Others". Why?

The Dictionary of Human Geography defines imperialism as "The creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." The maintenance of this unequal relationship has been described as depending on the subordination of an "other" group or peoples. Imperial rule is often imposed for exploitation of land and resources. Other, then, describes the process of justifying the domination of individuals or groups in the periphery to facilitate subordination. The creation of "the other" is done by highlighting their weakness, thus extenuating the moral responsibility of the stronger self to educate, convert, or civilize depending on the identity of the other. "Othering" is a term, advocated by great Palestinian scholar Edward Said in his seminal work "Orientalism". It refers to the act of emphasizing the perceived weaknesses of marginalized groups as a way of stressing the alleged strength of those in positions of power. Othering can be done with any racial, ethnic, religious, or geographically-defined category of people.

So, anything familiar here?

[LmL]

Great comments on the nature of imperialism and "otherization" of less desirable groups. (Less desirable to the imperialist overlords, of course). Nothing to add except that not all are familiar with this concept and that was an excellent summary, so it was good of you to share. :)

[Evolett]

I want to add something to what Wolfmaid7 has already said about the wights.

First of all, we are not sure that all the consciousness is gone from the wights. If we look at the attack on Mormont, we do not know if it was an order a wight was obeying, was it its instinct to destroy the nearest source of life force or was it some old grudge that leaped to life or a combination of some of these three elements. We have an assessment that "bones remember" and we should remember that.

Secondly, we have Coldhands who not only does not attack Sam, Gilly and the baby, nor does he attack Bran&Co, but escorts them to Bloodraven. People say he is a singularity. How do we know that? He is hostile to the wights. That is a fact.

Thirdly, I agree with Wolfmaid7 that no comparison with the Unsullied is possible. They are human beings trained to obey for years. No magic is involved. The wights are most likely skinchanged into. How, by whom and to what purpose are the main questions.

TWOIAF opens new possibilities to us:

and

These two things, along with GRRM's old assessment that Others have been misunderstood, should be taken into consideration.

Furthermore, from my profession's POV, I immensely enjoy the term "The Others". Why?

The Dictionary of Human Geography defines imperialism as "The creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." The maintenance of this unequal relationship has been described as depending on the subordination of an "other" group or peoples. Imperial rule is often imposed for exploitation of land and resources. Other, then, describes the process of justifying the domination of individuals or groups in the periphery to facilitate subordination. The creation of "the other" is done by highlighting their weakness, thus extenuating the moral responsibility of the stronger self to educate, convert, or civilize depending on the identity of the other. "Othering" is a term, advocated by great Palestinian scholar Edward Said in his seminal work "Orientalism". It refers to the act of emphasizing the perceived weaknesses of marginalized groups as a way of stressing the alleged strength of those in positions of power. Othering can be done with any racial, ethnic, religious, or geographically-defined category of people.

So, anything familiar here?

I'm with you here. It was the TWOIAF quote that prompted me to take a closer look at the Others. So far we've discovered a possible hierarchy and know a bit about their associates (or presumed associates). I see these as steps to discovering their motives. At present they appear to us as aggressors but there must be more to them than that. Also, overcoming 'Othering' as defined above always involves a struggle in which each side regards the other as 'the enemy', at least so long as the 'othered' side is capable of resisting or fighting. This does not mean that balance is impossible. Just how this balance (I hope) will be achieved in the end is what I find most intriguing about the series.

[wolfmaid7]

Interesting observations. I'll go away and think about this.

I read your excellent thread on Those who Sing. Very insightful and a great help with my examination of Patchface. I always thought the fact that he sings some of his so called prophecies is important but couldn't quite put my finger on it. Congrats for figuring that out :cheers:

Ah thank you.Yeah Patchface was an annoying little nail with his strange songs.But then i realize there is also a reason why he sings.I wonder if he songs better if submerged in water?

I want to add something to what Wolfmaid7 has already said about the wights.

First of all, we are not sure that all the consciousness is gone from the wights. If we look at the attack on Mormont, we do not know if it was an order a wight was obeying, was it its instinct to destroy the nearest source of life force or was it some old grudge that leaped to life or a combination of some of these three elements. We have an assessment that "bones remember" and we should remember that.

Secondly, we have Coldhands who not only does not attack Sam, Gilly and the baby, nor does he attack Bran&Co, but escorts them to Bloodraven. People say he is a singularity. How do we know that? He is hostile to the wights. That is a fact.

Thirdly, I agree with Wolfmaid7 that no comparison with the Unsullied is possible. They are human beings trained to obey for years. No magic is involved. The wights are most likely skinchanged into. How, by whom and to what purpose are the main questions.

TWOIAF opens new possibilities to us:

and

These two things, along with GRRM's old assessment that Others have been misunderstood, should be taken into consideration.

Furthermore, from my profession's POV, I immensely enjoy the term "The Others". Why?

The Dictionary of Human Geography defines imperialism as "The creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." The maintenance of this unequal relationship has been described as depending on the subordination of an "other" group or peoples. Imperial rule is often imposed for exploitation of land and resources. Other, then, describes the process of justifying the domination of individuals or groups in the periphery to facilitate subordination. The creation of "the other" is done by highlighting their weakness, thus extenuating the moral responsibility of the stronger self to educate, convert, or civilize depending on the identity of the other. "Othering" is a term, advocated by great Palestinian scholar Edward Said in his seminal work "Orientalism". It refers to the act of emphasizing the perceived weaknesses of marginalized groups as a way of stressing the alleged strength of those in positions of power. Othering can be done with any racial, ethnic, religious, or geographically-defined category of people.

So, anything familiar here?

Ahh lovely lovely to bring up the origins of "Othering" it was touched on briefly in Heresy but i am glad to have someone who is intimately familiar with it professionally to weigh in.That is a perfect example that adds credence to the fact that Westeros on a whole have ascribed a term and warped it over time without even knowing it.I said this before they have no idea who or that there is something behind the wws and the undead.They never did and never will.Its something they can't see and only Sam thus far is kind of fondling around the answer.

I would also like to bring up something in relation to the Wight Vis a vis Small Paul...Check this out.

Sam and Gilly were in a little hut,a hut that had dozens and dozens of Wights on the outside.These Wights consisted of not only NW men but Wildlings.Yet it is interesting that of all the Wights that came in to the hut it should be Small Paul.Small Paul who helped Sam on the march from the Fist,who wouldn't let Sam fall behind and threathned to carry Sam. It wasn't just any Wight that came in but the right one.The one who would make Sam.

1.Hesitate to the point where he began pleading with Small Paul asking him to remember that he helped Same.

2. It brings up another and more frightning thought.We saw it Will,V6 and Sam when looking at these Wights emphasis is placed on them "seeing'.Which indicates Sam and Gilly were being watched and if so would make the Small Paul wight being the one chosen to go into the hut all the more understandable.

Something also hit me when looking again at the Wight attack on Mormont.Had Ghost not been allowed to stay with Jon thus waking him up to discover what was going on.What are the chances of the Watch being compromised come morning?

Mormont would have been wighted,the two guards that were killed would have turned and they would have probably made their way way killing until the sun came up.

[Voice]

Green fire = wildfire, Black = dragonfire, Blue =?. There is a passage somewhere describing the hottest types of fire as well, can't think of the wording right now.

I think we are in for something momentous - check this out from Dany's last chapter in ADWD:

Spider crabs, red crabs now ants.... just saying :-D

Good stuff. I may be wrong, wolfmaid will know, but it seems like we discussed that particular Patchface quote in Heresy. We didn't come up with anything spectacular, but "Blue flames" would be an apt description of a flaming blue sword (such as the one Jaime sees in his dream), or the flames of an ice dragon (should one prove to exist).

And you guys are absolutely sure the Others are the enemy? And the fight will be between two elements? Why is then the series called ASOIAF?

I try not to think absolutely one way or the other, so as not to blind myself to likely alternatives, but the Others certainly seem unfriendly.

If the fight is between the two elements, which I think most of us think likely, the title of the series makes far more sense. Like the song of swords in the practice yard, we have the song of ice and fire that clearly marks the yin/yang struggle between two polar opposites of magic.

Caught in the middle, we have life itself. Nature. The natural cycle of life and death.

At the extreme cosmic ends of magic, we have corrupted versions of both life and death. Their Song is not romantic, it is perverse. A quick glance at Coldhands, or Victarion's hand demonstrates this. There are also the pure forms of both cosmic ends: the Others and their Ice Spiders, or perhaps, the Starks and their Others...and at the other end, we have the Valyrians and their Dragons. Both of which bring only death. One, in the form of fire and blood. The Other, in the form of ice and blood. Either way, Life loses.

Voice you know that quote is not proof wws were at the fist.Sam was doing what most characters have done see wights and assume wws.When they blow the horn do you think it's because they see wws,no they see wights.Not to mention there is a mountain of text that proves that no one on that Fist saw wws until Ser Puddles rode up on Sam and Company.You also know that the wws have nothing to do with the cold coming or not..we have the answer to that.

Oh boy LOL

Wolfmaid, we've already agreed to disagree on this one. Many times. I did not say that quote proves wws were at the Fist, but it does raise that prospect as being very likely.

You read it differently. And I admire your unique perspective on it. But, Samwell is not like most characters. He doesn't "see wights and assume wws." He's one character that knows the difference. He's a reader, like us. He's knowledgeable. He described the wights very clearly, then drew a clear distinction between them and the Others. Feel free to think otherwise, but we've already had this debate. For most readers, this is quite suggestive, and fits well with Old Nan's description of the Others leading legions of the undead. I know you disagree, and completely respect that, but I don' think it will be fruitful for us to repeat that particular debate here.

Voice's comparison of wights with Unsullied is valid. Before they were freed we understood that they are bound to absolutely obey orders from above. They can still be counted on to carry out a mission to completion once orders are given and for this the main commander does not have to be on site. I think much like the Unsullied, wights will go to a site and carry out orders given from above. I see no reason for ww to be present every time wights show up. This does not mean that wights are not under their control or that they don't receive orders from them.

Agreed. But Samwell (Samwell I ASOS) clearly remembers a wight attack at the Fist... then, forces himself to forget something else:

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

Later in that same chapter, we have this:

"You won't." Grenn's thick brown beard was frozen all around his mouth. It made him look like some old man. "You'll freeze, or the Others will get you. Sam, get up!"

A bit later, still within this same chapter:

The wind sighed through the trees, driving a fine spray of snow into their faces. The cold was so bitter that Sam felt naked. He looked for the other torches, but they were gone, every one of them. There was only the one Grenn carried, the flames rising from it like pale orange silks. He could see through them, to the black beyond. That torch will burn out soon, he thought, and we are all alone, without food or friends or fire.

But that was wrong. They weren't alone at all.

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

Clearly, wights can attack without wws amid their ranks. But I think Samwell knows the difference between the two, and forces himself to not remember the Others, just before one finds him.

[LmL]

It’s interesting - there seems to be two general possibilities here, each with HUGELY different ramifications as far as these themes of authorization which we’ve been discussing.

1.) they are “ice demons,” “ice elementals,” “ice sidhe,” - this would mean they truly are the “others.” This scenario is consistent with the idea of of the earth producing ice elementals as some sore of auto-immune response, to either the weirwoods being chopped or the twisted dark fire magic of Azor Ahai, the Bloodstone Emperor.

2.) They started as humans. This means the “ancient Others” were created in a similar way to “Craster’s Sons,” the White Walkers, but as adults, not children, and they would have been converted by... the heart of winter? One original Ice Demon? (this doesn’t seem likely to me). This makes me think of Terry Brooks seminal fantasy series, “The Sword of Shannara.” The original bad guy is called the Warlock Lord, and he was originally a druid (the “good guy” sorcerers, though they are grey at times), but went north and discovered an anceint book of of evil magic, which was more than a book but actually a spirit of evil or some kind of very abstract “heart of darkness” / source of dark magic. His use of this book warped him into a Sauron like being. And I guess Sauron and the ring is a similar concept... so in this scenario the Ancient Others were these first people who discovered this.

[LmL]

At the extreme cosmic ends of magic, we have corrupted versions of both life and death. Their Song is not romantic, it is perverse. A quick glance at Coldhands, or Victarion's hand demonstrates this. There are also the pure forms of both cosmic ends: the Others and their Ice Spiders, or perhaps, the Starks and their Others...and at the other end, we have the Valyrians and their Dragons. Both of which bring only death. One, in the form of fire and blood. The Other, in the form of ice and blood. Either way, Life loses.

Voice of the First Men, this is something I’ve been pondering. The Starks are very Icy, there is no doubt. The wolf is the winter animal, their words, Winterefell, the sword Ice, etc. But, they worship the heart trees. Heart trees are part of earth magic, not ice magic, as has been discussed. We also have the hot springs. So.. perhaps The Stark in Winterfell is about “purifying,” or “balancing” (perhaps not the right words) Ice Magic by tempering it with earth? I think most of us agree that the cotf represent the earth element, and balance between the poles of ice and fire. Perhaps converting the First Men, chiefly the Starks, to worship of the “Old Gods” (Weirwoodnet) keeps the Others at bay, by balancing out the Ice Magic. If I am correct that Ned’s sword, “not the original Ice,” is actually Azor Ahai / BSE’s dark fire sword, then it’s a further tempering and balancing of Ice Magic. The champion of ice, dipping the fire sword in a sacred pond in a weirwood grove. There’s all kinds of synergy and balance to that. If the pond is a melted ice dragon (crackpot but I like it) then there’s one more layer.

We’ve been seeing this combination of weriwoods withother magics a bunch recently - Beric, fire wight, in the weirwood hill. Brian, the Evenstar, with what I think is dark light bringer, sacrificing to the weirwood at Crackclaw (even burying the bodies under the tree, as the Blackwoods do... feeding the tree). Victorian, Ironborn of the sea, now has a fiery hand. Euron is crossing the OPPOSITE of weirwoods, warlock juice, with what I believe to be Storm Gid power (he sacrifices humans for favorable winds... this guy is seriously twisted and it’s not clear exactly what he has going on). There may be others I am not thinking of.

Jon obviously has a dual magic nature, as does Bloodraven, but this brings up the question - is skinchanging ice associated or earth associated? If it came from the cotf, which seems the likely source, then it would be earth magic, right? In that case, skin changers have earth magic, which means Bloodraven and Jon have earth and fire. Now, if the Starks have any Other blood somehow, which VotFM I don’t know your opinion on, then Jon has fire, ice, and earth, a nice mix.

So, my main question is pertaining to what is going on with the Starks. Are they combining Ice with earth magic, stabilizing it somehow? I think that’s the right word.

[Voice]

I saw it and am storing it away as a possibility. It's an interesting idea, and as I said I do think the trees are tying the continent together or making it making it "alive" somehow. I had had the idea previously that the Others are a magical response to the dark fire magic running rampant under Azor Ahai, generated by the earth itself. The idea that the Others came about a couple thousand years after the pact seems off to me; if they made a pact and stopped cutting trees, everything should have been ok, or at least in a holding pattern. And however the Others were stopped, why didn't they come again when the Andals came and really started cutting down trees? Sacred places like the High Heart? The Others should have come, because the Andals came 6,000 years ago.

It seems off to me as well, but that's all we've been told of it as of yet. What I'm saying though, is that it doesn't matter. What is time to a tree?

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

So while I like the general concept, it seems to me that the Others, if generated by the planet itself as an immune response (to either the fire magic or weirwood chopping), wouldn't need a couple thousand years to manifest. Autoimmune responses are made immediately in the natural world, it's just not worth much if it takes a couple thousand years. It wouldn't have been in time to do anything about the weirwoods - they would have been gone by then if not for the pact.

For weirwoods, the river of time does not move.

Ice is slow moving, slow forming. Fire is quick, reckless. Ice has a long, stark countenance. It is thoughtful, brooding. Ice is mesmerizing, beautiful, but is short-lived, and instinctual.

That's why I belive it makes more sense that they manifested at the beginning of the Long Night, as a response to whatever was happening at that moment. My hunch is that they either simply manifested because of the prolonged cold and darkness (their natural environment) or that the dark fire magic caused the earth to respond and produce them.

There's no doubt they first manifested in the eyes of Men at the beginning of the Long Night. But rather than a physical reason for the long night's occurrence, I must defer to our author's magical purposes.

Something brought about the long night. A long, slow darkness that lasted a generation. My guess is that the process began long before the darkness descended. These Old Gods are not as quick as dragons ;)

I'm still open to the idea they were humans who discovered the heart of winter and changed themselves - I'm just not sure how that fits in to the narrative of the Dawn Age / LN events.

That's not really what I'm saying. In fact, it is my postulation (though I haven't finished writing up the origin theory yet), that the infamous Heart of Winter did not exist until the Others did.

[Voice]

Rassin frackin server updates!

[Voice]

Voice of the First Men, this is something I’ve been pondering. The Starks are very Icy, there is no doubt. The wolf is the winter animal, their words, Winterefell, the sword Ice, etc. But, they worship the heart trees. Heart trees are part of earth magic, not ice magic, as has been discussed.

Yes! I'm so glad you make this same distinction! Too many folks in heresy blur the line between Ice and Old Gods, cotf and Ice, and Earth Magic and Ice Magic.

We agree completely here, Ser.

Starks keep the Old Gods now and have for a long time. But so do other First Men families that do not have all this Ice and Winter imagery as part of their heritage. The Starks bear a unique connection to Winter. While this connection is no doubt connected to Old Events and Old Gods, it is not dependent on them, nor caused by their manner of worship.

We also have the hot springs. So.. perhaps The Stark in Winterfell is about “purifying,” or “balancing” (perhaps not the right words) Ice Magic by tempering it with earth? I think most of us agree that the cotf represent the earth element, and balance between the poles of ice and fire.

Agreed. And the Rhoynar and Water Magic make 4.

Perhaps converting the First Men, chiefly the Starks, to worship of the “Old Gods” (Weirwoodnet) keeps the Others at bay, by balancing out the Ice Magic. If I am correct that Ned’s sword, “not the original Ice,” is actually Azor Ahai / BSE’s dark fire sword, then it’s a further tempering and balancing of Ice Magic. The champion of ice, dipping the fire sword in a sacred pond in a weirwood grove. There’s all kinds of synergy and balance to that. If the pond is a melted ice dragon (crackpot but I like it) then there’s one more layer.

I once suggested the bolded myself. But, that begs the question, why now (in the Prologue)?

Ned had been keeping up his end of the bargain, yet Waymar Royce was butchered.

We’ve been seeing this combination of weriwoods withother magics a bunch recently - Beric, fire wight, in the weirwood hill. Brian, the Evenstar, with what I think is dark light bringer, sacrificing to the weirwood at Crackclaw (even burying the bodies under the tree, as the Blackwoods do... feeding the tree). Victorian, Ironborn of the sea, now has a fiery hand. Euron is crossing the OPPOSITE of weirwoods, warlock juice, with what I believe to be Storm Gid power (he sacrifices humans for favorable winds... this guy is seriously twisted and it’s not clear exactly what he has going on). There may be others I am not thinking of.

Jon obviously has a dual magic nature, as does Bloodraven, but this brings up the question - is skinchanging ice associated or earth associated? If it came from the cotf, which seems the likely source, then it would be earth magic, right? In that case, skin changers have earth magic, which means Bloodraven and Jon have earth and fire. Now, if the Starks have any Other blood somehow, which VotFM I don’t know your opinion on, then Jon has fire, ice, and earth, a nice mix.

So, my main question is pertaining to what is going on with the Starks. Are they combining Ice with earth magic, stabilizing it somehow? I think that’s the right word.

Skinchanging is associated with Earth, I believe. The skinchanging of Ice I believe is a misnomer, as Ice has no skin ;)

Seriously though, I think the parallels lead us to use the magical terminology available to us a bit more broadly than is truly accurate. Skinchanging is between two living, conscious beings.

What we see happening with the Ice beings, wights in particular, looks a whole lot like skinchanging, but I believe that would be a mischaracterization.

I think Jon, and House Stark, are 100% human. I think the same is true for Dany. They're just normal, mortal people, with unique traits that allow them to experience and connect with powers greater than themselves. Some say these unique traits are due to their crossbreeding with other races, but that doesn't seem necessary to me.

As Thoros of Myr demonstrates, such traits can spontaneously appear.

The Starks have a connection to Winter that other houses do not. And while their ancestral sword was named Ice, and they wielded a sword with her name, that is not the same thing as wielding Ice Magic. If anything, their words and blades have served as stark reminders not to tamper with Ice...