The Blackfyre

[Ser Eric]

No textual evidence the GC wants to put a Blackfyre on the throne?!? Well, I suppose there's no textual evidence to suggest the Lannisters want a Lannister on the Iron throne then. Other than the fact its their entire founding mission, like wtf.

Founding evidence does not mean that's still the case. In fact it's definitely not the case anymore

[Suzanna Stormborn]

There is no textual evidence. Sorry.

There is no evidence that the GC give 2 shits about putting a Blackfyre on the throne. However, there is plenty of evidence suggesting otherwise.

There is no evidence that GC believe anything other than what JonCon says i.e Aegon is a Targaryen and son of Rhaegar.

There is no evidence that Aegon is Blackfyre. None whatsoever.

.

So, in your opinion, everything about the blackfyres in all 5 books, clearly outlined in the OP (with nothing but textual evidence), is a total waste of ink and means nothing? That is has no purpose and that the Balckfyres will definitely not come into play again?

LOL, also there is the evidence of the dead baby Aegon with his mother and sister that many people saw, there is that evidence..... soooo........

[In A Coat of Gold]

I have to concede the "or wanted to" point. But they were not going to support Viserys; Viserys was going to support them. You have absolutely no idea how many men without Westerosi blood fill out the ranks of the Golden Company. You do know that three of the Golden Company's high officers are a Summer Islander with green feathers (green vs black), a Volantene with a black beard and red hair (black vs red), and a Lyseni who is not what he appears to be at first glance...

The Lost Lord, Dance

And Harry Strickland may be cautious, but that doesn't mean he's not committed (think of Doran)...

The Lost Lord, Dance 24

Strickland makes excuse after excuse to not go through with it...and he's been golden for 4 generations. He should be as hardcore about the Blackfyre cause as anyone. From Jon Connington in ADWD

That time was done, though. “No man could have asked for a worthier son,” Griff said, “but the lad is not of my blood, and his name is not Griff. My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstborn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Elia of Dorne … soon, with your help, to be Aegon, the Sixth of His Name, King of Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.” Silence greeted his announcement. Someone cleared his throat. One of the Coles refilled his wine cup from the flagon. Gorys Edoryen played with one of his corkscrew ringlets and murmured something in a tongue Griff did not know. Laswell Peake coughed, Mandrake and Lothston exchanged a glance. They know, Griff realized then. They have known all along. He turned to look at Harry Strickland. “When did you tell them?” The captain-general wriggled his blistered toes in his footbath. “When we reached the river. The company was restless, with good reason. We walked away from an easy campaign in the Disputed Lands, and for what? So we could swelter in this god-awful heat watching our coins melt away and our blades go to rust whilst I turn away rich contracts?

“One broken contract is stain enough upon the honor of the company.” Homeless Harry Strickland paused with his blistered foot in hand. “Let me remind you, it was Myles Toyne who put his seal to this secret pact, not me. I would honor his agreement if I could, but how? It seems plain to me that the Targaryen girl is never coming west. Westeros was her father’s kingdom. Meereen is hers. If she can break the Yunkai’i, she’ll be Queen of Slaver’s Bay. If not, she’ll die long before we could hope to reach her.” His words came as no surprise to Griff. Harry Strickland had always been a genial man, better at hammering out contracts than at hammering on foes. He had a nose for gold, but whether he had the belly for battle was another question.

and then even after they land, Strickland is still tentative.

“If Peake and Rivers are successful, we will control the better part of Cape Wrath,” argued Strickland. “Four castles in as many days, that’s a splendid start, but we are still only at half strength. We need to wait for the rest of mymen. We are missing horses as well, and the elephants. Wait, I say. Gather our power, win some small lords to our cause, let Lysono Maar dispatch his spies to learn what we can learn of our foes.” Connington gave the plump captain-general a cool look. This man is no Blackheart, no Bittersteel, no Maelys. He would wait until all seven hells were frozen if he could rather than risk another bout of blisters.

The Company, for all intents and purposes, is just a sell sword company. The Aegon Blackfyre theorists likes to use this quote as an argument in their favor

When Podrick asked the name of the inn where they hoped to spend the night, Septon Meribald seized upon the question eagerly, perhaps to take their minds off the grisly sentinels along the roadside. “The Old Inn, some call it. There has been an inn there for many hundreds of years, though this inn was only raised during the reign of the first Jaehaerys, the king who built the kingsroad. Jaehaerys and his queen slept there during their journeys, it is said. For a time the inn was known as the Two Crowns in their honor, until one innkeep built a bell tower, and changed it to the Bellringer Inn. Later it passed to a crippled knight named Long Jon Heddle, who took up ironworking when he grew too old to fight. He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon.” “Is the dragon sign still there?” asked Podrick. “No,” said Septon Meribald. “When the smith’s son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon’s heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust.

The "red with rust" leads many to believe it's Aegon Blackfyre pretending to be a real Targaryen, when the rust could be them losing their values and willing to back a red dragon, i.e. Aegon.

[LmL]

There is no textual evidence. Sorry.

There is no evidence that the GC give 2 shits about putting a Blackfyre on the throne. However, there is plenty of evidence suggesting otherwise.

There is no evidence that GC believe anything other than what JonCon says i.e Aegon is a Targaryen and son of Rhaegar.

There is no evidence that Aegon is Blackfyre. None whatsoever.

.

:bs: :bs: :bs:

One of the worst things people do on the forum is to say that there is no evidence for something simply because they disagree. That's the difference between proof and evidence. There's lots of evidence for all three things, as LM has stated in the OP and in the comments, and has been documented elsewhere in the Blackfyre theories. Is there proof? Certainly not. But plenty of evidence, which can be interpreted different ways by different people.

But to say there is no evidence is just silly - it only invalidates your own credibility. It simply lets us know that you, Ser Eric, are not a reasonable person, or at least, are not acting like one here. You don't have to do that to make your case - just say you don't find the evidence compelling, and say why.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Double Post

[Suzanna Stormborn]

:bs: :bs: :bs:

One of the worst things people do on the forum is to say that there is no evidence for something simply because they disagree. That's the difference between proof and evidence. There's lots of evidence for all three things, as LM has stated in the OP and in the comments, and has been documented elsewhere in the Blackfyre theories. Is there proof? Certainly not. But plenty of evidence, which can be interpreted different ways by different people.

But to say there is no evidence is just silly - it only invalidates your own credibility. It simply lets us know that you, Ser Eric, are not a reasonable person, or at least, are not acting like one here. You don't have to do that to make your case - just say you don't find the evidence compelling, and say why.

Yes that's all correct and I viewed the post the exact same way.

[LmL]

Strickland makes excuse after excuse to not go through with it...and he's been golden for 4 generations. He should be as hardcore about the Blackfyre cause as anyone. From Jon Connington in ADWD

and then even after they land, Strickland is still tentative.

The Company, for all intents and purposes, is just a sell sword company. The Aegon Blackfyre theorists likes to use this quote as an argument in their favor

The "red with rust" leads many to believe it's Aegon Blackfyre pretending to be a real Targaryen, when the rust could be them losing their values and willing to back a red dragon, i.e. Aegon.

You keep saying the GC is just a sellsword company, but as we have pointed out to you, they are not. They are the sellsword company with the best reputation in the world, who has never broken a contract, for starters. Second, they just backed fAegon without any money, to go on a very risky mission where many will die. The contract was written in blood, as Illyrio says. Lastly, they were started by the Blackfyres and have a history wrapped up with them, and invading Westeros.

None of that is anything like any other sellsword company.

[Ser Eric]

:bs: :bs: :bs:

One of the worst things people do on the forum is to say that there is no evidence for something simply because they disagree. That's the difference between proof and evidence. There's lots of evidence for all three things, as LM has stated in the OP and in the comments, and has been documented elsewhere in the Blackfyre theories. Is there proof? Certainly not. But plenty of evidence, which can be interpreted different ways by different people.

But to say there is no evidence is just silly - it only invalidates your own credibility. It simply lets us know that you, Ser Eric, are not a reasonable person, or at least, are not acting like one here. You don't have to do that to make your case - just say you don't find the evidence compelling, and say why.

It's not really silly. I deal with textual evidence

And there really isn't any unless you resort to mental gymnastics and start taking passages out of context.

[In A Coat of Gold]

You keep saying the GC is just a sellsword company, but as we have pointed out to you, they are not. They are the sellsword company with the best reputation in the world, who has never broken a contract, for starters. Second, they just backed fAegon without any money, to go on a very risky mission where many will die. The contract was written in blood, as Illyrio says. Lastly, they were started by the Blackfyres and have a history wrapped up with them, and invading Westeros.

None of that is anything like any other sellsword company.

There are no more Blackfyres in the company. They are composed of troops and commanders from everywhere.

They have been fighting for decades in the disputed lands. What does that have to do with Westeros?

We have no idea how much Illyrio has already paid them.

It's the biggest reward mission there is. Lands and castles are worth more than gold. Look at the Second Sons. They take on Tyrion, a convicted kinslayer and kingslayer with the expectation that they will win him Casterly Rock . They are even less well trained, armored, and have no alliances, yet they will do it anyway. Life is about taking chances.

[Lost Melnibonean]

There is no textual evidence. Sorry.

There is no evidence that the GC give 2 shits about putting a Blackfyre on the throne. However, there is plenty of evidence suggesting otherwise.

There is no evidence that GC believe anything other than what JonCon says i.e Aegon is a Targaryen and son of Rhaegar.

There is no evidence that Aegon is Blackfyre. None whatsoever.

.

What about this...

". . . Are you aware that the Golden Company has broken its contract with Myr?"

"Sellswords break their contracts all the time."

"Not the Golden Company. Our word is good as gold has been their boast since the days of Bittersteel. Myr is on the point of war with Lys and Tyrosh. Why break a contract that offered them the prospect of good wages and good plunder?"

"Perhaps Lys offered them better wages. Or Tyrosh."

"No, she said. I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It's home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions."

The Soiled Knight, Feast 13

And this...

The dwarf pondered that. The Golden Company was reputedly the finest of the free companies, founded a century ago by Bittersteel, a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy. When another of Aegon's Great Bastards tried to seize the Iron Throne from his trueborn half-brother, Bittersteel joined the revolt. Daemon Blackfyre had perished on the Redgrass Field, however, and his rebellion with him. Those followers of the Black Dragon who survived the battle yet refused to bend the knee fled across the narrow sea, among them Daemon's younger sons, Bittersteel, and hundreds of landless lords and knights who soon found themselves forced to sell their swords to eat. Some joined the Ragged Standard, some the Second Sons or Maiden's Men. Bittersteel saw the strength of House Blackfyre scattering to the four winds, so he formed the Golden Company to bind the exiles together. From that day to this, the men of the Golden Company had lived and died in the Disputed Lands, fighting for Myr or Lys or Tyrosh in their pointless little wars, and dreaming of the land their fathers had lost. They were exiles and sons of exiles, dispossessed and unforgiven yet formidable fighters still.

Tyrion II, Dance 5

And this...

Bittersteel was asked about by [a fan during Q&A]. He went over a lot of stuff already covered in the SSM then said that the Golden Company wants or wanted to overthrow the reigning lineage of Targs as they consider them usurpers.

SSM, LA Con IV, 08/25/2006 (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2006/08)

[Lost Melnibonean]

Not entirely correct. I am open to the idea that Aegon could be some random Valyrian boy Varys picked up. That's probably the likeliest answer tbh.

I don't recollect what chapter you are referring to?

The one I stated in the post...

@Ser Eric, I am well aware of your belief that Aegon is exactly who he thinks he is. But instead of dismissing the theory as a whole, perhaps we could discuss the underlying assumptions? Why do you think The George inserted the description of the arms of House Toland of Ghost Hill in The Soiled Knight, Feast 13?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^^ PLus Tyrion, who has dragon dreams, had a dream about Bittersteel with dragons overhead the day after he met Illyrio for the first time. Clearly foreshadowing that Illyrio represents Bittersteel now as the leader of the Blackfyres.

[Ser Eric]

What about this...

The Soiled Knight, Feast 13

And this...

Tyrion II, Dance 5

And this...

SSM, LA Con IV, 08/25/2006 (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2006/08)

I have to be honest. The posts you have quoted is not evidence. I'm not arguing that the GC was founded with the goal to seat a BLackfyre on the throne. That is not up for debate. What I'm arguing is that it's quite apparent that it is no longer the case given what we've seen in the books. From the very quote you posted:

It's home they want, as much as gold

They just want to go home. They no longer care whether it's with a Targaryen or Blackfyre.

[Greg B]

No textual evidence the GC wants to put a Blackfyre on the throne?!? Well, I suppose there's no textual evidence to suggest the Lannisters want a Lannister on the Iron throne then. Other than the fact its their entire founding mission, like wtf.

Those aren't comparable. The difference is that the Golden Company is, at this point, rather diverse. Even among the leadership, many have no connection to old rebellions.

Franklin Flowers just wants to kill Fossoways.

Tristan Rivers is just tired of waiting around.

Jon Lothston's house was historically aligned against the Blackfyres.

Black Balaq is a Summer Islander.

Lysono Maar is a Lysenni sellsword.

Gorys Edoryen is Volantene.

If Aegon is a Blackfyre, I think I disagree with LM: I suspect Harry Strickland is the only one who knows it -- and that's one reason he's the only one who wants to stick to (the most recent version of) Illyrio's plan.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have to be honest. The posts you have quoted is not evidence. I'm not arguing that the GC was founded with the goal to seat a BLackfyre on the throne. That is not up for debate. What I'm arguing is that it's quite apparent that it is no longer the case given what we've seen in the books. From the very quote you posted:

They just want to go home. They no longer care whether it's with a Targaryen or Blackfyre.

Yeah but many of them are exiled or the sons or grandsons of exiles. They cannot go home with honor unless they put a Blackfyre on the throne to pardon them all.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Founding evidence does not mean that's still the case. In fact it's definitely not the case anymore

Please provide the textual evidencethat it's definitely not the case anymore. I know we have this...

"I admire your powers of persuasion," Tyrion told Illyrio. "How did you convince the Golden Company to take up the cause of our sweet queen when they have spent so much of their history fighting against the Targaryens?"

Illyrio brushed away the objection as if it were a fly. "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre." The cheesemonger smiled through his forked beard. "And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home."

Tyrion II, Dance 5

But, Illyrio, who considers a member of the Golden Company to be his brother, tells us that Barristan ended the the male line but not the female line, as he smiles through his forked beard. Daenerys is nothing more than a pesky fly.

So is there some other textual evidence?

[Ser Eric]

The GC broke their contract for Dany. I don't know why everyone ignores this vital and indisputable piece of information. It was only after they broke their contract that they were informed about Aegon. It doesn't get clearer than that I'm afraid.

And the only problem they had with breaking their contract was that they were losing money. The GC are like any other sellsword company at this point albeit with an impeccable reputation.

[Ser Eric]

Please provide the textual evidencethat it's definitely not the case anymore. I know we have this...

Tyrion II, Dance 5

But, Illyrio, who considers a member of the Golden Company to be his brother, tells us that Barristan ended the the male line but not the female line, as he smiles through his forked beard. Daenerys is nothing more than a pesky fly.

So is there some other textual evidence?

They broke their contract for Dany. That is evidence stated plainly in the books.

If you want to ignore it then that's up to you but the books are very clear on the current state of the GC.

[Lost Melnibonean]

So, in your opinion, everything about the blackfyres in all 5 books, clearly outlined in the OP (with nothing but textual evidence), is a total waste of ink and means nothing? That is has no purpose and that the Balckfyres will definitely not come into play again?

LOL, also there is the evidence of the dead baby Aegon with his mother and sister that many people saw, there is that evidence..... soooo........

To be fair to Ser Eric, I understand he doesn't believe Aegon is Rhaegar's son but rather a pisswater prince, and the Golden Company only cares about getting what's theirs in Westeros.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The GC broke their contract for Dany. I don't know why everyone ignores this vital and indisputable piece of information. It was only after they broke their contract that they were informed about Aegon. It doesn't get clearer than that I'm afraid.

And the only problem they had with breaking their contract was that they were losing money. The GC are like any other sellsword company at this point albeit with an impeccable reputation.

Well not for Dany, for Illyrio. They've never spoken to Dany, and when Viserys did approach them once they laughed at him. It was Illyrio who they agreed for. And Illyrio told Tyrion that they did it for blood, not money. Your whole argument hangs on the idea that Illyrio paid them off-screen and then lied about it to Tyrion.