Heresy 160

[Black Crow]

Ya, probably should re-word the Ashara part. Ned didn't kill her, but she apparently jumped after he visited her. So didn't kill her, but seemingly influenced her suicide at least.

Supposedly, or then again did Ned warn her to get out of Dodge with Aegon before Trouserless Bob and the Lannisters caught up with him and that covering their tracks with a fake suicide would be an ever better idea.

And with that one and all good night.

[JNR]

So we're seemingly left with only Darkstar fulfilling the requirements (knight, member of House Dayne), but for whatever reason House Dayne hasn't chosen to pick him, leaving the post vacant for the last 17 years.

That's another interesting point. I wonder if there's a morals clause in the SotM contract, such as we Heretics have sometimes imagined led Varamyr to get kicked off the Potential Greenseers list.

This, I thought was interesting. Does all this business of Rhaegar and his love for the lady Lyanna and his dying with her name on his lips come from ballad singers?

Over in the House of Commons they'll tell you it's in the app too, and therefore must be true. I don't have the app and so cannot say.

I do recall reading that the app cites Jon's place of death as Castle Black and Melisandre's place of origin as Asshai, and I have considerable doubts on both those points.

[Matthew.]

What they know is, in this case, remarkably damn little. GRRM has played the mystery writer's trick of getting his readers to believe they know things when they don't.

I don't disagree, but the text at the very least suggests Lyanna being abducted by Rhaegar at some point between the end of Harrenhal and the start of Robert's Rebellion, that's not just some speculative invention of the fandom. Similarly, we can be reasonably sure that Ned visited Dorne at some point after the end of the war, and I'm going to hazard a guess that he wasn't making that trek to the south with Jon already in tow.

This doesn't prove anything, but it lays a very basic logistic foundation to suggest Rhaegar could have fathered a child on Lyanna during the appropriate time frame. For the sake of clarity, I'm not on board with any theories of secret weddings, or secret letters of legitimacy, I just find the basic premise of Rhaegar fathering a child on Lyanna to be the most plausible alternative to Ned as the father, with the little bit of information that we have at the present.

And, although I seem to be largely alone here, I really don't think Ned as the father should be completely counted out. The timeline doesn't work for Jon being conceived at Harrenhal, but who says Harrenhal would have been the only time Ned interacted with Ashara? Ned had both lordship and betrothal unexpectedly thrust upon him, he might have been more free to meet up with a lady of his choosing in the interim.

[Mother of Dragons]

LoL on it being too obvious! I guess I is not smart. So if Arya finds out JS is her half brother (which she already thinks, right?) That meansNed is the Dad after all? Or did I miss the meaning. I heard of Parris' comment, but she might of been trying to throw people off the scent.

Edit: I see I read the passage wrong. They find out they aren't half siblings...but me thinks first cousins are still close, esp if you knew them growing up. But I guess not in this world.

[Mother of Dragons]

Also, the point about Jon not having Targ features shouldn't matter because he doesn't have Dayne features, either. Maybe Ned hates Rhaegar because he knocked up his younger sister? Maybe blames him for her death because of that? Not uncommon for older brothers to dislike a younger sister's baby daddy, I'm sure, esp if he never married her.

Also, if LyLy had a boo with Dayne, I'm guessing her genes would be dominant, and the same with Rhaegar. I'm not a geneticist, but I think I remember reading dark features are usually more dominant.

Call me a Rhaegar agnostic, I guess. I seem to feel this makes more sense with the clues given, but I'll have a better idea this read through bc I'll be paying more attention.

[Mother of Dragons]

I don't disagree, but the text at the very least suggests Lyanna being abducted by Rhaegar at some point between the end of Harrenhal and the start of Robert's Rebellion, that's not just some speculative invention of the fandom. Similarly, we can be reasonably sure that Ned visited Dorne at some point after the end of the war, and I'm going to hazard a guess that he wasn't making that trek to the south with Jon already in tow.

This doesn't prove anything, but it lays a very basic logistic foundation to suggest Rhaegar could have fathered a child on Lyanna during the appropriate time frame. For the sake of clarity, I'm not on board with any theories of secret weddings, or secret letters of legitimacy, I just find the basic premise of Rhaegar fathering a child on Lyanna to be the most plausible alternative to Ned as the father, with the little bit of information that we have at the present.

And, although I seem to be largely alone here, I really don't think Ned as the father should be completely counted out. The timeline doesn't work for Jon being conceived at Harrenhal, but who says Harrenhal would have been the only time Ned interacted with Ashara? Ned had both lordship and betrothal unexpectedly thrust upon him, he might have been more free to meet up with a lady of his choosing in the interim.

We can be Rhaegar agnostics together. I think the only stupid theory out there is Robert+Lyanna. Bob would've been happy to raise the kid, maybe acknowledge him as they were betrothed. No reason to keep it a secret.

[JNR]

I don't disagree, but the text at the very least suggests Lyanna being abducted by Rhaegar at some point between the end of Harrenhal and the start of Robert's Rebellion, that's not just some speculative invention of the fandom. Similarly, we can be reasonably sure that Ned visited Dorne at some point after the end of the war

Sure. We just know next to nothing about the year in between, as far as Rhaegar and Lyanna are concerned. And I definitely wouldn't say RLJ is fanciful or improbable. In fact, I consider RLJ one of only two theories on that subject that are worth a tinker's damn. It's when fans think RLJ is inescapable, all but proved, that I scratch my chin and think "Ah, well, we shall see..."

And, although I seem to be largely alone here, I really don't think Ned as the father should be completely counted out. The timeline doesn't work for Jon being conceived at Harrenhal, but who says Harrenhal would have been the only time Ned interacted with Ashara?

You're not alone at all; in fact, GRRM has famously gone out of his way to say that Ashara wasn't exactly nailed down to the floor in Starfall all through the Rebellion. So the logistics of this idea aren't impossible by any means.

We can be Rhaegar agnostics together. I think the only stupid theory out there is Robert+Lyanna. Bob would've been happy to raise the kid, maybe acknowledge him as they were betrothed. No reason to keep it a secret.

Well, also, Robert would've had to sire Jon about three months into his own Rebellion. If he knew where Lyanna was then, and had sex with her, it's a little surprising that he never told anybody or brought her back to Ned.

[markg171]

"Rhaegar... Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armour into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now."

This, I thought was interesting. Does all this business of Rhaegar and his love for the lady Lyanna and his dying with her name on his lips come from ballad singers?

Well they definitely would have been the ones to spread it around the most

That's another interesting point. I wonder if there's a morals clause in the SotM contract, such as we Heretics have sometimes imagined led Varamyr to get kicked off the Potential Greenseers list.

I'm assuming that there's some other criteria that we're missing, otherwise why not appoint Darkstar? His only flaw seems to be that he's an asshole. Other than that, from what we know, he fits the criteria to be the Sword of the Morning, yet he wasn't chosen as it.

Over in the House of Commons they'll tell you it's in the app too, and therefore must be true. I don't have the app and so cannot say.

Don't have the app either, and have never been able to find a way to get it for my phone. I know it exists, but I'm not exactly willing to accept everything that someone tells me it says, when I can't confirm that. Especially when I don't know the context of the app's details.

For instance, supposedly the app says that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips... but is the app saying that that's what actually happened at the Trident, which seems impossible with a crushed chest and Robert never mentioning it, or is it simply a clarification of the vision that Dany sees, clarifying that the name said is Lyanna's? Which are two completely different scenarios.

Also, the point about Jon not having Targ features shouldn't matter because he doesn't have Dayne features, either.

Ah, but what exactly are Dayne features?

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …

Arianne watched him warily. He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. Father would question my good sense, but our children would be as beautiful as dragonlords. If there was a handsomer man in Dorne, she did not know him. Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

3 different Daynes, with 3 different features. The only thing in common seems to be a tendency towards purplish eyes. Other than that, so far our three Daynes don't look alike, and we have no idea what Arthur looked like, thus placing his looks completely unknown. He could have been equally different, or just as easily looked like one of these three. But placing Dayne-ish features so far is a no

[Mother of Dragons]

Mark- aren't the Dayne features silver hair and purple eyes? I think BC quoted Ser Granpa musing about Ashara, saying Dany could be her daughter. This was in reference to fAegon, as a way to give Martin another family with Targ features.

In my mind, I imagined that the Daynes were distant relatives of the Targs rather than coincidentally share rare features. This would explain why Dorne still uses royal titles, although I know the Martells are dark now.

Regarding time lines, I'm terrible with that. How were the years figured out? Was it in the prequels? I never read those, although I have the World Book. Just skimmed through it so far.

Edit:

Mark- good job finding the features, I must have been thinking of Darkstar. Was he the one that looked like a Targ, or is he from a different house?

I wondered on a read thru once if the Ned in that quote was a Ned bastard he had with Ashara, since he liked her and share a name. But if it was his son, he'd of provided for him. I believe now though that Ned was a virgin when he married Cat.

no Dayne lineage listed in World Book, as I'm sure you all know already, but kudos to George or Ran for making that Targaryen family tree. I tried to follow it for a few minutes and gave up. I saw the history of Martell-Targ matches, but I think I remember that from Feast although I could be wrong.

[King Tyrion XX]

"Rhaegar... Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armour into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it.Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now."

This, I thought was interesting. Does all this business of Rhaegar and his love for the lady Lyanna and his dying with her name on his lips come from ballad singers?

Bolded doesn't exist in canon.

[Mother of Dragons]

Bolded doesn't exist in canon.

Do you have the books memorized? That's pretty impressive.

[superunknown5]

Off the top of my head:

- Ned gets sad discussing killing Arthur, but he never feels any emotion for helping kill any of the other KG, or for helping Robert kill Rhaegar

- Arthur is sad that it's Ned who has arrived at the TOJ, and he's the only KG to depict this sadness at who has arrived

- Arthur, despite being repeatedly mentioned in the books, is never once given a description of what he looks like. With Rhaegar as the father, we'd know what physical features to look for, and they're not there in Jon's features. With Arthur, we have no idea if Jon would look like him, as we don't know what he looks like.

- The Daynes have enormous respect for Ned, despite him having killed Arthur, and seemingly killed Ashara too

- GRRM has said that Dawn remains at Starfall awaiting the next Sword of the Morning. That tells me that there's someone in the story who can be this. Seeing as the Sword of the Morning has to be a member of House Dayne, and the only people who have so far as Darkstar and Edric, I'd say there's a third Dayne male lying around

If anybody else can think of anything, feel free to point them out

Here's also what I've gathered so far:

There are other narrative/contextual clues. In Dance, Barristan ruminates on his love for Ashara and his on his KG celibacy vow at the same time. So, that's a pretty obvious linkage between Daynes, KG, celibacy, Dornishmen, paramours, etc. etc. But it doesn't end there.

And, there is the entire Arys Oakheart subplot in Feast. Arys is a KG who breaks his vow of celibacy with Arianne Martell. She schools him on the fact that her uncle, Lewyn Martell (also a KG) had a paramour, which shocked Arys. She also goes on about other KG who broke their celibacy vows. like Aemon the Dragonknight (with his sister Naerys), Lucamore the Lusty aka Lucamore Strong who fathered 16 children, Terrence Toyne, who slept with his king's mistress. Even his contemporaries like Boros Blount slept with prostitutes, and Preston Greenfield made a paramour of a draper's wife.

Arianne is Dornish. She sleeps with a KG. She TALKS about KG who had paramours. Dornish people have lax attitudes toward paramours. Ser Arthur Dayne is a Dornishman. It's not a stretch to imagine he had a similarly lax attitude.

Arthur tells Jaime "All knights must bleed. Blood is the seal of our devotion." Jon LITERALLY bleeds at the wall to seal his devotion. For the Watch!

Also Jon and Arthur are both described as sad (though to be fair Rhaegar is described as melancholy, though that just proves why they were such close friends).

And I would argue that the title "Sword of the Morning" is ACTUALLY the "Sword of the Mourning" (GRRM is clever like that) hence the theme of sadness/suicide/grief/despair/death/regret etc. exhibited so clearly by both Arthur AND Ashara. Even the imagery of a falling star, the Dayne sigil, indicates sadness and failure.

[superunknown5]

Mark- aren't the Dayne features silver hair and purple eyes? I think BC quoted Ser Granpa musing about Ashara, saying Dany could be her daughter. This was in reference to fAegon, as a way to give Martin another family with Targ features.

In my mind, I imagined that the Daynes were distant relatives of the Targs rather than coincidentally share rare features. This would explain why Dorne still uses royal titles, although I know the Martells are dark now.

Regarding time lines, I'm terrible with that. How were the years figured out? Was it in the prequels? I never read those, although I have the World Book. Just skimmed through it so far.

Edit:

Mark- good job finding the features, I must have been thinking of Darkstar. Was he the one that looked like a Targ, or is he from a different house?

I wondered on a read thru once if the Ned in that quote was a Ned bastard he had with Ashara, since he liked her and share a name. But if it was his son, he'd of provided for him. I believe now though that Ned was a virgin when he married Cat.

no Dayne lineage listed in World Book, as I'm sure you all know already, but kudos to George or Ran for making that Targaryen family tree. I tried to follow it for a few minutes and gave up. I saw the history of Martell-Targ matches, but I think I remember that from Feast although I could be wrong.

Well Ashara has dark hair, and as GRRM has said, Elizabeth Taylor had purple eyes, it doesn't mean she was a Targaryen. :) But it is interesting some of them do have that coloring. According to the World Book, Starfall is so named for it was founded by the original Dayne who tracked a falling star to where it crashed and built a castle there. This "stone of magical powers" had strange properties. It seems likely Dawn was forged from this material. This magical substance could be the thing linking the Dayne traits with the Valyrian traits of silver hair/purple eyes. (and perhaps more speculatively with the black oily stone)

[markg171]

Mark- aren't the Dayne features silver hair and purple eyes? I think BC quoted Ser Granpa musing about Ashara, saying Dany could be her daughter. This was in reference to fAegon, as a way to give Martin another family with Targ features.

In my mind, I imagined that the Daynes were distant relatives of the Targs rather than coincidentally share rare features. This would explain why Dorne still uses royal titles, although I know the Martells are dark now.

Regarding time lines, I'm terrible with that. How were the years figured out? Was it in the prequels? I never read those, although I have the World Book. Just skimmed through it so far.

Edit:

Mark- good job finding the features, I must have been thinking of Darkstar. Was he the one that looked like a Targ, or is he from a different house?

Darkstar is the only Dayne so far who has silver hair and purple eyes, and Arianne believes that if they were to have children together that the kids would look like dragonlords. So Darkstar at least looks Targaryen-ish.

And you're close on the money about Darkstar being from a separate family. Ashara, Arthur, and Edric are from the Daynes of Starfall, and Darkstar is from the Daynes of High Hermitage. Same overall family, but they are separated into different Houses.

Here's also what I've gathered so far:

There are other narrative/contextual clues. In Dance, Barristan ruminates on his love for Ashara and his on his KG celibacy vow at the same time. So, that's a pretty obvious linkage between Daynes, KG, celibacy, Dornishmen, paramours, etc. etc. But it doesn't end there.

And, there is the entire Arys Oakheart subplot in Feast. Arys is a KG who breaks his vow of celibacy with Arianne Martell. She schools him on the fact that her uncle, Lewyn Martell (also a KG) had a paramour, which shocked Arys. She also goes on about other KG who broke their celibacy vows. like Aemon the Dragonknight (with his sister Naerys), Lucamore the Lusty aka Lucamore Strong who fathered 16 children, Terrence Toyne, who slept with his king's mistress. Even his contemporaries like Boros Blount slept with prostitutes, and Preston Greenfield made a paramour of a draper's wife.

Arianne is Dornish. She sleeps with a KG. She TALKS about KG who had paramours. Dornish people have lax attitudes toward paramours. Ser Arthur Dayne is a Dornishman. It's not a stretch to imagine he had a similarly lax attitude.

Arthur tells Jaime "All knights must bleed. Blood is the seal of our devotion." Jon LITERALLY bleeds at the wall to seal his devotion. For the Watch!

Also Jon and Arthur are both described as sad (though to be fair Rhaegar is described as melancholy, though that just proves why they were such close friends).

And I would argue that the title "Sword of the Morning" is ACTUALLY the "Sword of the Mourning" (GRRM is clever like that) hence the theme of sadness/suicide/grief/despair/death/regret etc. exhibited so clearly by both Arthur AND Ashara. Even the imagery of a falling star, the Dayne sigil, indicates sadness and failure.

Good points. Another that I just remembered is this:

“Honor, “ she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?”

After saying that she's seen Jon, Cersei lists 3 possible mothers to Ned, with 2/3 being Dornish. Which would seem to indicate that there's something Dornish about Jon's features.

Not only that, but we’ve had 7 characters in the story talk about Jon’s mother: Ned, Robert, Cersei, Catelyn, Edric Dayne, Godric Borrell, and Tyrion. 5/7 of those people believe the mother to be Dornish (either Wylla or Ashara), while 1 believes it’s someone from the Vale, and 1 can’t tell as Jon’s features are too Starkish. So the majority of characters believe him to be of Dornish descent, and this must be believable, otherwise they wouldn’t believe this. So Jon potentially has some Dornish features otherwise people wouldn't believe that he had a Dornish mother.

Now if Jon has Dornish features, he wouldn’t get them from Rhaegar, seeing as Rhaegar’s last Dornish ancestor was 4 generations ago. Which would make it 5 generations for Jon, if he was his son. And Lyanna obviously doesn’t have any Dornish features. Now if Jon was indeed Wylla or Ashara’s child, then it would make sense for why all these people believe that he was: because there’s something Dornish in his features and he got them from his mother. Which also equally works if instead he got his Stark features from his mother, and his Dornish features from his father as his mother was Lyanna, and his father Arthur.

[King Tyrion XX]

Do you have the books memorized? That's pretty impressive.

It's an incredibly specific piece of info. No need to memorize every word of 5,000 pages. Also you can search Lyanna in all 5 books and won't find Rhaegar saying it as he died.

[markg171]

It's an incredibly specific piece of info. No need to memorize every word of 5,000 pages. Also you can search Lyanna in all 5 books and won't find Rhaegar saying it as he died.

Having no lungs after Robert hit him likely played a part in that...

[JNR]

Do you have the books memorized? That's pretty impressive.

These are arguments that people have been having for years, to the point where they know each others' positions inside-out.

In this particular case, the reference to Rhaegar dying with "a woman's name" on his lips is in the books, in Dany's HOTU visions.

The app then came out stating it was Lyanna's name in particular.

The RLJ camp seized on this with a vigorous "Aha!!" and made much of it, while others rolled their eyes and pointed out the app is full of known BS, such as Mel originally being from Asshai.

So at this point, anybody who remembers that kerfuffle also remembers there is nowhere in canon where it says Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

Then there are guys like markg171 who go on to note that if Rhaegar had anything on his lips at that particular point in time, it was probably a quart or so of the blood of the dragon.

[Mother of Dragons]

@Mark- the description you quoted of Gerold sounds Targish except for the black streak. Ned's description sounds Targ as well. That might be why I remembered the Daynes that way.

I say not necessarily re: Dornish features. Sounds like a lot of Martells married Targaryens, but I'm guessing dark features were more dominant. So I don't think his Targ features would fit in either way because dark haired parents who have kids with a blonde person will generally have dark haired/eyed kids whether 1st or 4th gen bc dark is a dominant trait. Unless, there exists recessive traits in the lineage for the darker parent that per chance line up with fair featured parent at conception.

Looking at the Stark family tree, it looks like the Starks also intermarried a lot with cousins or distant relatives, so I would assume the Stark features prevail for the most part, except when it came to Robb and Sansa.

I guess my point is, if there's no blonde purple eyed ancestors, there are no genes to line up, but if Jon had a child with a Targ or Dayne, or a descendent of them, we might see supporting evidence if the child had the features of Jon's theoretical baby mama.

I was surprised when his wildling died. I was sure he'd get her pregnant. They sure practiced a lot.

[Mother of Dragons]

These are arguments that people have been having for years, to the point where they know each others' positions inside-out.

In this particular case, the reference to Rhaegar dying with "a woman's name" on his lips is in the books, in Dany's HOTU visions.

The app then came out stating it was Lyanna's name in particular.

The RLJ camp seized on this with a vigorous "Aha!!" and made much of it, while others rolled their eyes and pointed out the app is full of known BS, such as Mel originally being from Asshai.

So at this point, anybody who remembers that kerfuffle also remembers there is nowhere in canon where it says Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

Then there are guys like markg171 who go on to note that if Rhaegar had anything on his lips at that particular point in time, it was probably a quart or so of the blood of the dragon.

Sounds like the app itself is heresy! Why would it get approved by George's camp, I wonder? I had great visuals of lungless Raymun Rhaegar spewing out dragon blood.

[Mother of Dragons]

It's an incredibly specific piece of info. No need to memorize every word of 5,000 pages. Also you can search Lyanna in all 5 books and won't find Rhaegar saying it as he died.

Searching all 5 books for Lyanna would also take time! But I guess not as much as the others since she's not mentioned aa much.