Heresy 162

[Mace Cooterian]

Actually,this thought is also in the mind of the Maesters at lease some of them per Pycelle.When speaking to Ned after he arrived at KL.

"As the girl went to fetch their drinks, the Grand Maester knotted his fingers together and rested his hands on his stomach. “The smallfolk say that the last year of summer is always the hottest. It is not so, yet ofttimes it feels that way, does it not? On days like this, I envy you northerners your summer snows.” The heavy jeweled chain around the old man’s neck chinked softly as he shifted in his seat. “To be sure, King Maekar’s summer was hotter than this one, and near as long. There were fools, even in the Citadel, who took that to mean that the Great Summer had come at last, the summer that never ends, but in the seventh year it broke suddenly, and we had a short autumn and a terrible long winter. Still, the heat was fierce while it lasted. Oldtown steamed and sweltered by day and came alive only by night. We would walk in the gardens by the river and argue about the gods. "

I'm flying quick on the pass and will ask which Maester this was?. The old man with the jeweled necklace. Cite reference: book: chapter?

[Eira Seren]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=BabsgCQhpu4

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

You guys got to watch this ,Jon Snow at a Seth Meyers Dinner party

Nice one! Love the moments where he pulls Jon aside. . . "I knew the moment I said it it was the wrong thing. . . " :)

[addicted to snow]

Oh its certainly very heavily hinted at. Interestingly the Wildlings don't actually talk about the children at all. Osha affirms that they exist, but that's about it. As to Gendel's children, that one comes from Ygritte, but as she never speaks of the children of the forest there's nothing to provide a separation, but when she speaks of them being always hungry and Bran encounters the three-fingered tree-huggers in a cave littered with skulls and other bones its difficult to avoid the hint.

Well, The CotF eat anything & everything that falls into their backdoor, which coldhands said was a Sink-hole (especially during winter)... This is why the meat bran was eating in the cave tasted so strange - who knows what kind of animal had stumbled into their cave & become dinner...

This does make the CotF evil, just hungry... just doing what they have to do to stay alive...

[markg171]

I once many, many Heresies ago connected the Stallion That Mounts The World prohecy to Aegon/Young Griff and it seemed well received at the time. I'll see if I can rewind the clock 115ish Heresies and at least a few pounds and find it.

Wouldn't mind seeing this as the stallion that mounts the world prophecy just seems like such a throwaway prophecy so far. It was shown in the first book and everybody thought it would be Rhaego and then Rhaego died... and then what? You can't tell me that a Dothraki prophecy thousands of years old rested on the birth of one unborn child. Even if Rhaego could have fulfilled the prophecy, that doesn't mean that he had to be the only person ever who could have been it.

Hail Heretics,this might be OT,the not right thread,the not right board,but I esteem you lot immensely,so here goes...In the Histories&Lore section on the Season 1 Bluray,Luwin refers to Ned as "Rickard's YOUNGEST son."WTF???Apologies if this has been pointed out before...

Like others have said could be an error, could be people not reading their scripts right. Or it could be that once Benjen swore himself to the Night's Watch he wasn't a Stark anymore.

That being said, I've found that the History and Lore series have been giving out some information that either contradicts the text, or are spoilers that have not yet been revealed. For instance, In the Death of Kings one, it says that Barristan extinguished Daemon's line when he killed Maelys. Of course in the books we are told that it's the male line that has been extinguished, but if Daemon's line itself was extinguished, then all of the Blackfyres are dead as every Blackfyre descends from Daemon.

And then in the Robert's Rebellion one narrated by Oberyn, Oberyn says that Rhaegar picked Elia and that Elia loved him and implies that Rhaegar loved her too and defeated him for her hand, but ultimately ran away with Lyanna. And then it also says that Rhaegar was too slow, or too arrogant and that this is what killed him when he fought Robert.

Most of it just seems to be world building for Game of Thrones and not for ASOIAF, but could be that there's future hints to be had in them

[Phillip Frye]

GRRM has already given us the groundwork that Rickon could be incredible. Of course the problem remains that Rickon is only 5 years old, but good god could be ferocious if given time. The fact that he's been supposedly on Skagos can't help but have toughened him even more, and we already have characters looking for him to try and unite around.

This bears repeating:

"Rickon, what is best in life?"

"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women."

"That is good! That is good."

[King Tyrion XX]

While I search, here's the Stallion prophecy:

Finally the crone opened her eye and lifted her arms. I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves, she proclaimed in a thin, wavery voice.

The thunder of his hooves! the others chorused.

As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name. The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.

[TheSmallOther]

Wouldn't mind seeing this as the stallion that mounts the world prophecy just seems like such a throwaway prophecy so far. It was shown in the first book and everybody thought it would be Rhaego and then Rhaego died... and then what? You can't tell me that a Dothraki prophecy thousands of years old rested on the birth of one unborn child. Even if Rhaego could have fulfilled the prophecy, that doesn't mean that he had to be the only person ever who could have been it.

"Who said anything about 'him'?" :devil:

I mean... Who said anything about unborn child? We got dragons who got born soon after that accident with Rhaego. I'm pretty sure Dany (despite all that bulshit about breaking the wheels and stuff) can and probably will mount the world while sitting on dragon's back.

[TheSmallOther]

Can't wait to see you put this together...I like the idea that Lya may have been altered and i am reminded of an imagery about Bran while he was in his coma,but i must confirm.I have longed thought that CHs was able to reclaim his body because of him having the skinchanging/greenseeing gene.But i got confused with the story part because then who is the father in your theory if Lya was changed?

You know, not so long enough Night's King looked behind the Wall and saw a woman. It was almost the same as the last time, only exactly opposite. He was now standing at the other side of the Wall, he was now pale with blue eyes. And yes, he had no woman in thousands of years... So he took the girl and instead of giving his soul again, he took part of hers.

[markg171]

"Who said anything about 'him'?" :devil:

I mean... Who said anything about unborn child? We got dragons who got born soon after that accident with Rhaego. I'm pretty sure Dany (despite all that bulshit about breaking the wheels and stuff) can and probably will mount the world while sitting on dragon's back.

I think one of my biggest problems with Rhaego, or Drogon or any of the other dragons being the stallion is actually shown in the prophecy that King Tyrion posted.

The old crone said that the stallion is already riding... Rhaego was still a child in the womb, and Drogon and the rest of the dragons were petrified eggs. Neither of them could have been riding. Much of the prophecy speaks of the future yes, but it definitely says in there that the stallion is already alive. Which would rather eliminate those who were not yet born. I've no doubt that Rhaego COULD have been the stallion as why wouldn't people flock to his khalasar, him being the son of the greatest khal, and the last Targaryen. In which case the crone believing Rhaego to be the stallion isn't wrong in and of itself. But she said that the prince is already riding.

I agree though that Dany makes far more sense if it's not Rhaego or Rickon or King Tyrion's idea that it might be Aegon (which I'm looking forward to seeing), but I'm not even sure if we will get the Stallion That Mounts The World. Seemed like George just kind of put in there as a build up to show the price that Dany accidentally paid trying to bring back Drogo. Or that in trying to fulfill a prophecy, the Dothraki ultimately failed as George writes his stories in the sense that prophecies happen, they are not actively fulfilled.

[Black Crow]

This does make the CotF evil, just hungry... just doing what they have to do to stay alive...

Oh I don't think that the children are evil at all, but rather to quote Alan Breck; "the wrong lot" :cool4:

[Black Crow]

"Who said anything about 'him'?" :devil:

I mean... Who said anything about unborn child? We got dragons who got born soon after that accident with Rhaego. I'm pretty sure Dany (despite all that bulshit about breaking the wheels and stuff) can and probably will mount the world while sitting on dragon's back.

In support of that we do have Maester Aemon wittering on about getting the translation wrong, while to the Dothraki a conqueror must by definition be a man given the role of women in their society.

More to the point perhaps, this is why I suggested that if the perilous journey to the heart of Ice was actually Bran and the Scooby Gang looking for Kurtz in in his heart of darkness, then the other perilous journey is most likely Tyrion's going to find Danaerys, not to bring her back to Westeros but to stop her [or at least the dragons] just as Bran will in the end have to stop the tree-huggers.

[Black Crow]

I agree though that Dany makes far more sense if it's not Rhaego or Rickon or King Tyrion's idea that it might be Aegon (which I'm looking forward to seeing), but I'm not even sure if we will get the Stallion That Mounts The World. Seemed like George just kind of put in there as a build up to show the price that Dany accidentally paid trying to bring back Drogo. Or that in trying to fulfill a prophecy, the Dothraki ultimately failed as George writes his stories in the sense that prophecies happen, they are not actively fulfilled.

It would be more accurate to say that they come to pass, but as GRRM has been at some pains to emphasise, not in the way they are anticipated; which is why here on heresy we've tended to be very very wary of the promised Prince Azor Ahai coming to save Westeros.

[markg171]

Can't wait to see you put this together...I like the idea that Lya may have been altered and i am reminded of an imagery about Bran while he was in his coma,but i must confirm.I have longed thought that CHs was able to reclaim his body because of him having the skinchanging/greenseeing gene.But i got confused with the story part because then who is the father in your theory if Lya was changed?

I've always found it rather interesting that when Varamyr died, his body seemingly didn't rise as a wight.

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he’d done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were naked, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these. The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

Varamyr can still identify people, especially Thistle, when he starts his second life in One-Eye. But he never identifies his own body as being one of the wights, and you'd think that that would be something that would happen as it would be the one he'd be most familiar with. Yet he doesn't identify it, so I would say that Varamyr's body did not rise. Which is part of a theory I have that wights are controlled through their soul/consciousness/whatever you want to call it, and it's not just the body that comes back. Varamyr's was in One-Eye, so there was nothing to animate his body.

We don't know exactly what animates the wights, but it seems to be a kind of blanket spell or force seeing as hordes rise together. But it seems here that we have one body that didn't rise, and the only difference is that Varamyr was a skinchanger. And I'd point out that Varamyr's consciousness wasn't anywhere near the village when the wights were raised as One Eye had to run to the village and the wights had already been raised by that point. I'm not sure how exactly this relates to Coldhands, but Coldhands is both a wight and not a wight so it could be that he was a skinchanger and was killed and as his soul was attempting to travel to his animal the "force" that animates the dead was evoked, and slammed him back into his own body. As his mind was still conscious, he was brought back, but not brought back in the same way as the others

You know, not so long enough Night's King looked behind the Wall and saw a woman. It was almost the same as the last time, only exactly opposite. He was now standing at the other side of the Wall, he was now pale with blue eyes. And yes, he had no woman in thousands of years... So he took the girl and instead of giving his soul again, he took part of hers.

This would certainly be interesting. I know everyone tries to find historical parallels to try and guess how George will write certain characters, but George has also made it clear that when he studied history, he found the legends and stories to be much more interesting than the historical accounts. So i'm rather cautious when trying to find parallels between historical accounts in these stories, as GRRM has said he prefers the legend version and thus would recreate that. In which case I could perfectly see him taking the story of the Night's King, and twisting it around on itself to be an inverse where this time it's the man seducing the woman, and from a different side of the Wall.

[The 4th head of dragon]

First time hereser(is there such a word?), I was doing a Jon reread and started musing about the berserker moments. In ASOS, it said'Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off

the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off.' we don't know how many men need to pull Jon from Thorne, only multiple men.

Then the sparing session 'In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm.' two men pulled Jon from Emmett.

Finally in ADWD 'Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeathers head and wrenched it violently from

the ground. Pull down the other two, he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey.', and'This is not the time and place to pick at that wound. Not here, my lord. Not now. To the men

struggling with the spears Snow said, Take the heads and burn them. Leave nothing but bare bone.' Either Jon just got the one easiest (by far), or he was stronger than two men at this moment.

Looks like something other than wolf dreams gets stronger in time as well?

(Sorry about the layout, the site somehow turns moblie and I am on PC)

[markg171]

It would be more accurate to say that they come to pass, but as GRRM has been at some pains to emphasise, not in the way they are anticipated; which is why here on heresy we've tended to be very very wary of the promised Prince Azor Ahai coming to save Westeros.

That's one of my big problems with the "Rhaegar was trying to fulfill a prophecy and thus impregnated Lyanna so Jon would be the song of ice and fire". George has made it clear that if you trying to fulfill the prophecy or avoid it, your efforts will be futile. So the idea that Rhaegar went out of his way to fulfill the prophecy by creating Jon, just doesn't float with what GRRM does.

Jon still could be the promised prince/Azor Ahai/whatever, but the idea that he is it because Rhaegar tried to fulfill a prophecy doesn't make any sense. George has told us that that would exactly NOT work.

[Black Crow]

I've always found it rather interesting that when Varamyr died, his body seemingly didn't rise as a wight.

Varamyr can still identify people, especially Thistle, when he starts his second life in One-Eye. But he never identifies his own body as being one of the wights, and you'd think that that would be something that would happen as it would be the one he'd be most familiar with. Yet he doesn't identify it, so I would say that Varamyr's body did not rise. Which is part of a theory I have that wights are controlled through their soul/consciousness/whatever you want to call it, and it's not just the body that comes back. Varamyr's was in One-Eye, so there was nothing to animate his body.

Indeed and there being nothing new under the sun this tends to be how we've interpreted this in the past. When the body dies the spirit sleeps within unless awoken by magic. In Varamyr's case the body died but there was nobody home.

[Black Crow]

First time hereser(is there such a word?), I was doing a Jon reread and started musing about the berserker moments. In ASOS, it said'Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off

the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off.' we don't know how many men need to pull Jon from Thorne, only multiple men.

Then the sparing session 'In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm.' two men pulled Jon from Emmett.

Finally in ADWD 'Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeathers head and wrenched it violently from

the ground. Pull down the other two, he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey.', and'This is not the time and place to pick at that wound. Not here, my lord. Not now. To the men

struggling with the spears Snow said, Take the heads and burn them. Leave nothing but bare bone.' Either Jon just got the one easiest (by far), or he was stronger than two men at this moment.

Looks like something other than wolf dreams gets stronger in time as well?

(Sorry about the layout, the site somehow turns moblie and I am on PC)

Welcome to heresy.

In a certain other place they will tell you that it is Jon wakening the dragon. Over here we'll point out that it's actually Ghost taking over

[markg171]

First time hereser(is there such a word?), I was doing a Jon reread and started musing about the berserker moments. In ASOS, it said'Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off

the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off.' we don't know how many men need to pull Jon from Thorne, only multiple men.

Then the sparing session 'In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm.' two men pulled Jon from Emmett.

Finally in ADWD 'Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeathers head and wrenched it violently from

the ground. Pull down the other two, he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey.', and'This is not the time and place to pick at that wound. Not here, my lord. Not now. To the men

struggling with the spears Snow said, Take the heads and burn them. Leave nothing but bare bone.' Either Jon just got the one easiest (by far), or he was stronger than two men at this moment.

Looks like something other than wolf dreams gets stronger in time as well?

(Sorry about the layout, the site somehow turns moblie and I am on PC)

Well Jon does have the advantage that's he been trained by shield, sword, and lance all of his life. So I'd imagine he's stronger than most men in the Watch, even though most are older than him seeing as they didn't have that advantage.

Of course, if you subscribe to the idea that Jon is actually the son of Arthur Dayne as some Heresy threads looked at a couple ago, then Jon's strength could be interesting when you examine this:

Grunting, she came at him, blade whirling, and suddenly it was Jaime struggling to keep steel from skin. One of her slashes raked across his brow, and blood ran down into his right eye. The Others take her, and Riverrun as well! His skills had gone to rust and rot in that bloody dungeon, and the chains were no great help either. His eye closed, his shoulders were going numb from the jarring they’d taken, and his wrists ached from the weight of chains, manacles, and sword. His longsword grew heavier with every blow, and Jaime knew he was not swinging it as quickly as he’d done earlier, nor raising it as high.

She is stronger than I am.

The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain’s strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all. But this was a woman. A huge cow of a woman, to be sure, but even so... by rights, she should be the one wearing down

Jaime places himself as the 8th strongest man in Westoros (at least in his lifetime). He was thus pre-imprisonment extremely strong... and one of the people that he said was even stronger than him was Arthur Dayne. So if Jon's father is actually Arthur, and Jon has some kind of strength in him above normal men, it wouldn't be impossible that it comes from his father.

[Black Crow]

And with that I fear, its time for a new one. Heresy 163 is about to be posted and I'll see you all over there.

:commie: :commie: :commie: