Heresy 164

[Black Crow]

ATTN: Ok guys I was informed that Heresy 163 was deleted by admins because of open discussions concerning leaked info.It will NOT be reinstated, so to keep this from happening again please adhere to BC warning about keeping to discussions related to Heresy only.Thanks

And the pity of it is that it wasn't a bad thread with some useful discussion on the snowflake communion, but joining the dots together it looks like Mark blew it by ignoring the warnings both on the pirated episodes and discussion of the series generally.

So, a revision of the rules to avoid a recurrence. Apart from the business of not cluttering the thread with non-heresy related material, I think that there are two categories here and that it all depends on whether something may or may not be a book spoiler. If we take last year's Craster's sons business, I'd say something like that is allowable. It may [still] be controversial but its in the book and not a spoiler - indeed GRRM himself said so. However it looks very much as though this series will be covering not just ADwD but beyond so if we move into areas not covered by the books we could be looking at real spoilers, so don't run mad. There are ways these things can be discussed discreetly without incurring the wrath of Mod.

Lastly keep an eye on the warnings regularly posted by Ran and his Mods at the tops of pages

[Black Crow]

Coming back to some proper discussion, I’m inclined to suggest that the business of the Snowflake Communion and Rhaegar’s rubies are related or rather complementary. In discussing what’s really going on we need, I think, to remember that this is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Although the original trilogy has expanded exponentially I think it’s fair to suggest that we still have a story in three [unequal sized parts]; the classic beginning, middle and end. Part the First, the beginning was the Game of Thrones, originally conceived as a feud between the Starks and the Lannisters it was expanded into the War of the Five Kings. That ended with the effective destruction of the Starks and the establishment of the Lannisters on the throne – an old Westerosi family mark you. Not Valyrian upstarts.

Part the Second, otherwise known as the middle and GRRM’s projected second volume, is also drawing to an end. Westeros is in ruins and the Lannisters’ short-lived reign is under serious threat from the Dragonlords.

Now we’re about to embark on Part the Third, GRRM’s projected third volume and the greatest threat at all from up North.

Notwithstanding the way the story has moved since 1993 we’re still looking at that original sketch and what it suggests is that its neither about the struggle for the throne which ruined Westeros, nor about identifying Jon Snow as a Targaryen and heir to that evil throne imposed on Westeros by Aegon the Conqueror. Instead its about Ice and Fire.

So what does that really mean? And here, once again I think it may be worth stepping well back to look at the bigger picture. In the beginning, or at least as far back as anybody knows, Westeros was the land of the children and the Old Gods and, with reference to the Reeds’ oath I still want to refer to them as the Ice, as you’ll see below.

In come the First men, with metal and above all Fire. There’s a lot of damage done but in the end the invaders are absorbed into the land. We’re not talking universal peace and harmony of course but they accept the Old Gods of Westeros. Then come the Andals, again with sword and Fire, but again they become absorbed. Outwardly there’s the Faith of the Seven, but they’ve married into the old families and in real terms there’s more assimilation than opposition

Then come the Valyrians again with Fire, but here it becomes interesting because while the Baratheons marry into and to all intents and purposes become the old Durrandon Storm-lords, the Targaryens themselves refuse to integrate. They marry each other to keep their blood-line pure and don’t become absorbed – they remain outsiders and in the end are kicked outside by an interesting trinity; the Starks, representing the First Men; the Lannisters, First Men with Andal blood; and the Baratheons [or Durrandons], First Men with Andal and Valyrian blood. There are others involved of course but the point, as the Reeds would tell you, is that the land is one.

In the end therefore what we’re looking at is a land which is a compound of Ice and Fire, being menaced on two sides by those who represent the extremes of both; the Ice from the Land of Always Winter and the [Targaryen] Fire from the Land of the Long Summer.

[wolfmaid7]

And the pity of it is that it wasn't a bad thread with some useful discussion on the snowflake communion, but joining the dots together it looks like Mark blew it by ignoring the warnings both on the pirated episodes and discussion of the series generally.

It is a travesty,that being said i did keep on the guide a reminder of what was spoken about.But there was some good things brought to light,sigh. To quote The Nox on SG-1 "The very young do not always do as their told." So this loss should be immortalized in our collective memories and stand as a reminder that we should do just that.

<snip>

So what does that really mean? And here, once again I think it may be worth stepping well back to look at the bigger picture. In the beginning, or at least as far back as anybody knows, Westeros was the land of the children and the Old Gods and, with reference to the Reeds oath I still want to refer to them as the Ice, as youll see below.

In come the First men, with metal and above all Fire. Theres a lot of damage done but in the end the invaders are absorbed into the land. Were not talking universal peace and harmony of course but they accept the Old Gods of Westeros. Then come the Andals, again with sword and Fire, but again they become absorbed. Outwardly theres the Faith of the Seven, but theyve married into the old families and in real terms theres more assimilation than opposition

Then come the Valyrians again with Fire, but here it becomes interesting because while the Baratheons marry into and to all intents and purposes become the old Durrandon Storm-lords, the Targaryens themselves refuse to integrate. They marry each other to keep their blood-line pure and dont become absorbed they remain outsiders and in the end are kicked outside by an interesting trinity; the Starks, representing the First Men; the Lannisters, First Men with Andal blood; and the Baratheons [or Durrandons], First Men with Andal and Valyrian blood. There are others involved of course but the point, as the Reeds would tell you, is that the land is one.

In the end therefore what were looking at is a land which is a compound of Ice and Fire, being menaced on two sides by those who represent the extremes of both; the Ice from the Land of Always Winter and the [Targaryen] Fire from the Land of the Long Summer.

I cut the parts that i agree with but the remainder i tend to view a bit differently.You are right in reasserting that this is the song of ice and fire and thus bigger than any one person.But we tend to forget or atlease i look magically at what the elements of ice and fire represents.They have in the history of the earth and magical history and lore stood as the ultimate equalizers in the sense that they both end and start and ages/world.

Hence the reason of all magical forces they are known as "The primodial elements" they emerge and converge when the energy is so toxic and its time to destroy and start again.The celestial,social and environmental signs all point to Westeros being in an extinction cycle and spiraling toward an extinction event because this one isn't and has'nt worked.

Its all about magic trying to find an equllibrium that benefits all life and it will create and destroy until it reaches that.Its probably no coincidence that in the opening credits of the show,the first and 3rd season we symbols such as the "spiral,astrolabe." etc its all about cycles and things coming full circle hence the reason events "seem" to repeat itself in history.

When this is over not everyone and everthing will survive the change and thus its easy to understand Leaf statement that they are in their long dwindling because they see that this current world has no place for them and the likes of them.So it is about the land,but its about a great purging through disease,famine,war etc.

So their isn't an extreme of fire and ice in that sense,though it seems that way.There is an extreme in the vices of men,their ways isn't working.So these elemental forces of Fire and ice are being drawn to head to end it all.And they can't help it that is the eternal war that will in some degrees be normalized and healthy as in the case of the Summer and Winter king scenario being equal for the first time ever because they are not.Or we start this crap all over again and when the noise reaches the max what is happening now will happen again.

I also disagree that the COTF are ice,they are clearly earth and not in the sense that they represent everything on earth.They are singers of the Earth element.Ice and Fire are cosmic and primodial that's all on nature when its time to call a time out and start this crap all over again.

[Black Crow]

#Wolfmaid

I don't think that we're so very much in opposition here and perhaps the labels don't help, but the way I'm trying to look at it is that the land of Westeros is one, blending Ice and Fire together and the threat comes from those whose ancient allegiances are to Ice or Fire alone. In that regard we have the Starks who are fundamentally linked to Winter or Ice if you prefer with no significant external input into the bloodline and on the other the Targaryens with their link to Fire and no significant external input into the bloodline. Not Wolves and Lions, but Wolves and Dragons.

Aegon initiated a takeover by Fire, which was eventually defeated [300 years is but a blink] and the last of the Dragonlords expelled. So what of the Starks and Winter?

[wolfmaid7]

#Wolfmaid

I don't think that we're so very much in opposition here and perhaps the labels don't help, but the way I'm trying to look at it is that the land of Westeros is one, blending Ice and Fire together and the threat comes from those whose ancient allegiances are to Ice or Fire alone. In that regard we have the Starks who are fundamentally linked to Winter or Ice if you prefer with no significant external input into the bloodline and on the other the Targaryens with their link to Fire and no significant external input into the bloodline. Not Wolves and Lions, but Wolves and Dragons.

Aegon initiated a takeover by Fire, which was eventually defeated [300 years is but a blink] and the last of the Dragonlords expelled. So what of the Starks and Winter?

Oh cool. ..I see what you mean.I think the Starks already some of them will remain alive, in the realm of men.But I think one or two of them will not dwell with men after this.

Edit: Ok i'm back to finish my thought.

I think we also have to take into consideration what is natural and what is not.I don't think we can include the current Dragon lord in that because Dany has Blackwood blood which based on what we have seen with her and the WB definition of a Skinchanger that Heretical assertion by myself and a few others is true.Dany is a skinchanger and they are naturally so.

Through the Blackwood blood,a Targ line has been seeded into skinchanging,but on a balance angle Dragons in Westeros :crying: Probably not a good idea and i believe its no coinky dink that Dany is barren.Effectively if Jon isn't a Targ that's it for them....The line of the Dragonlords naturally bonding when it comes to Westeros is over.

Which leaves one thing,something that still will remain a problem if its not dealt with and that's the proliferation of sorcery.

[Matthew.]

Then come the Valyrians again with Fire, but here it becomes interesting because while the Baratheons marry into and to all intents and purposes become the old Durrandon Storm-lords, the Targaryens themselves refuse to integrate. They marry each other to keep their blood-line pure and don’t become absorbed – they remain outsiders and in the end are kicked outside by an interesting trinity; the Starks, representing the First Men; the Lannisters, First Men with Andal blood; and the Baratheons [or Durrandons], First Men with Andal and Valyrian blood. There are others involved of course but the point, as the Reeds would tell you, is that the land is one.

The Valyrians did remain (blood-wise) outsiders, but I think its worth noting that, unlike the FM and the Andals, we have no indication that they destroyed weirwoods - for example, the godswood of Harrenhal was left intact - and we also know that Aegon didn't try to force anyone to convert away from the Old Gods. In addition, for most of its 5,000 - 6,000 year history, Valyria seems to have left Westeros alone; we have no hint that they even attempted to set up port colonies, or any of the other things you might expect from such a long-lived empire.

I've said it before, but I'm not convinced that the CotF and the dragonlords are necessarily natural enemies; instead, I think all magic has a reciprocal relationship, and that the reawakening of magic was mutually beneficial to both the weirwoods and the dragons.

Having said that, I do agree that Dany herself is meant to be an outside threat descending on Westeros, but I think a part of that is that, rather than being the second coming of Aegon the Conqueror, she's more like the second coming of Khal Drogo.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Coming back to some proper discussion, I’m inclined to suggest that the business of the Snowflake Communion and Rhaegar’s rubies are related or rather complementary. In discussing what’s really going on we need, I think, to remember that this is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Although the original trilogy has expanded exponentially I think it’s fair to suggest that we still have a story in three [unequal sized parts]; the classic beginning, middle and end. Part the First, the beginning was the Game of Thrones, originally conceived as a feud between the Starks and the Lannisters it was expanded into the War of the Five Kings. That ended with the effective destruction of the Starks and the establishment of the Lannisters on the throne – an old Westerosi family mark you. Not Valyrian upstarts.

Part the Second, otherwise known as the middle and GRRM’s projected second volume, is also drawing to an end. Westeros is in ruins and the Lannisters’ short-lived reign is under serious threat from the Dragonlords.

Now we’re about to embark on Part the Third, GRRM’s projected third volume and the greatest threat at all from up North.

Notwithstanding the way the story has moved since 1993 we’re still looking at that original sketch and what it suggests is that its neither about the struggle for the throne which ruined Westeros, nor about identifying Jon Snow as a Targaryen and heir to that evil throne imposed on Westeros by Aegon the Conqueror. Instead its about Ice and Fire.

So what does that really mean? And here, once again I think it may be worth stepping well back to look at the bigger picture. In the beginning, or at least as far back as anybody knows, Westeros was the land of the children and the Old Gods and, with reference to the Reeds’ oath I still want to refer to them as the Ice, as you’ll see below.

In come the First men, with metal and above all Fire. There’s a lot of damage done but in the end the invaders are absorbed into the land. We’re not talking universal peace and harmony of course but they accept the Old Gods of Westeros. Then come the Andals, again with sword and Fire, but again they become absorbed. Outwardly there’s the Faith of the Seven, but they’ve married into the old families and in real terms there’s more assimilation than opposition

Then come the Valyrians again with Fire, but here it becomes interesting because while the Baratheons marry into and to all intents and purposes become the old Durrandon Storm-lords, the Targaryens themselves refuse to integrate. They marry each other to keep their blood-line pure and don’t become absorbed – they remain outsiders and in the end are kicked outside by an interesting trinity; the Starks, representing the First Men; the Lannisters, First Men with Andal blood; and the Baratheons [or Durrandons], First Men with Andal and Valyrian blood. There are others involved of course but the point, as the Reeds would tell you, is that the land is one.

In the end therefore what we’re looking at is a land which is a compound of Ice and Fire, being menaced on two sides by those who represent the extremes of both; the Ice from the Land of Always Winter and the [Targaryen] Fire from the Land of the Long Summer.

So you're saying everything changed when the fire nation attacked :cool4:

Now to serious business.

Very interesting, in this theory what would be the "fire" before the coming of the first men? or there was only ice in Westeros?

I really like the idea of Westeros being a meld of Ice and Fire, could it be that the entrance of the Dragonlords and their dragons, coupled with the waxing of the CotF and Giants, led to the excess of "fire" that set forth Ice (as the Others), the only problem with this view is that the timing doesn't really fit, Dragons were gone from hundreds of years before the first WW was spotted (then again that's the first we've heard of them, not necessarily how long they've been expanding).

I wonder if this is why Valyrians never tried to settle in Westeros, they maybe knew that dragons there could lead to a Long Night...

Coming back to the Reed's oath

Meera and Jojen: To Winterfel we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.

Jojen: I swear it by earth and water.

Meera: I swear it by bronze and iron.

Meera and Jojen: We swear it by ice and fire.

I've always took this as a mini representation of the Pact, the greendreamer Jojen as a CotF, Meera as the FM.

Earth and water are (in my view) the power of the children, and less disrupting manifestations of Ice, in the same way Bronze and Iron (forging) are less extreme forms of Fire. As long as they are not overused there is balance. However when abused they lead to drastic results, not necessarily immediately though (Hammer of the waters leads to Long Night)

We can characterize the the duality between fire and ice, basically from Robert Frost's poem, Ice is the extreme of nature, stagnation (the CotF, Giants, the Others), Fire on the other hand is the extreme of civilization, change, (Men, particularly Valyrian).

So in the end (of the world) it should be the middle ground that holds the most sway, someone that is both Ice and Fire, in my view that's Bran (he's human (fire), and yet connected to the children (ice)) that's not to say he will swoop and kill both dragons and Others, but I believe he will have decisive action.

[Matthew.]

An additional thought: It's not strictly true that the Valyrians never integrated, despite all of the intermarriage. Bloodraven is the prime example, but it's also worth noting that all present Targaryens (known and suspected) are descendants of Aegon V, whose wife was a Blackwood, a pretty significant bloodline as far as magic is concerned.

[The 4th head of dragon]

The Valyrians did remain (blood-wise) outsiders, but I think its worth noting that, unlike the FM and the Andals, we have no indication that they destroyed weirwoods - for example, the godswood of Harrenhal was left intact - and we also know that Aegon didn't try to force anyone to convert away from the Old Gods. In addition, for most of its 5,000 - 6,000 year history, Valyria seems to have left Westeros alone; we have no hint that they even attempted to set up port colonies, or any of the other things you might expect from such a long-lived empire.

I've said it before, but I'm not convinced that the CotF and the dragonlords are necessarily natural enemies; instead, I think all magic has a reciprocal relationship, and that the reawakening of magic was mutually beneficial to both the weirwoods and the dragons.

Having said that, I do agree that Dany herself is meant to be an outside threat descending on Westeros, but I think a part of that is that, rather than being the second coming of Aegon the Conqueror, she's more like the second coming of Khal Drogo.

Oily black stone constructions, which are strongly suspected to have ties to Valyria, exists in some ports of Westeros. I get your point though, they stayed away from the mainland for some reasons.

[wolfmaid7]

An additional thought: It's not strictly true that the Valyrians never integrated, despite all of the intermarriage. Bloodraven is the prime example, but it's also worth noting that all present Targaryens (known and suspected) are descendants of Aegon V, whose wife was a Blackwood, a pretty significant bloodline as far as magic is concerned.

This here was the came changers for the Targs,the moment the Blackwood blood was put in that bloodline they became a part of it.But sadly,with Dany being the Last Dragon lord according to the synopsis......Hint hint that might be a clue after her there's no more.

[Matthew.]

Oily black stone constructions, which are strongly suspected to have ties to Valyria, exists in some ports of Westeros. I get your point though, they stayed away from the mainland for some reasons.

If I'm not mistaken, the WB mentions more than once that the black stone structures are reminiscent of Valyrian buildings in material, but not in aesthetic. I've been interpreting this as meaning that the structures were built by some culture that had fire magic, or maybe even dragons, but not Valyria themselves--a culture that, in my opinion, originated in the region where Asshai and the Shadowlands are. Even more crackpot, perhaps, I believe that the fused basalt structures are to standard basalt as Valyrian steel is to standard steel.

[Black Crow]

I would emphasis in suggesting this theory that I'm speaking of a lack of any significant mingling rather than none at all and in this regard I'm also very mindfull of the way that whilst the Starks don't practice incest in the way the Targaryens do they have a very "tight" bloodline with a lot of marrying of cousins and other near relations. They are to a considerable degree a family apart.

[Frey family reunion]

If I'm not mistaken, the WB mentions more than once that the black stone structures are reminiscent of Valyrian buildings in material, but not in aesthetic. I've been interpreting this as meaning that the structures were built by some culture that had fire magic, or maybe even dragons, but not Valyria themselves--a culture that, in my opinion, originated in the region where Asshai and the Shadowlands are. Even more crackpot, perhaps, I believe that the fused basalt structures are to standard basalt as Valyrian steel is to standard steel.

I like this. I also wonder if these structures are in fact basalt, that the added ingredient to make them "oily" might be the same substance that makes up the black oily blood of UnBeric or the inky black substance that Melisandre excretes.

[Frey family reunion]

An additional thought: It's not strictly true that the Valyrians never integrated, despite all of the intermarriage. Bloodraven is the prime example, but it's also worth noting that all present Targaryens (known and suspected) are descendants of Aegon V, whose wife was a Blackwood, a pretty significant bloodline as far as magic is concerned.

Correct, the last Targaryen line was actually genetically speaking pretty intermingled despite the incestuous marriages of Aerys and Rahella and Jaehearys and his sister-wife. The current Targaryen line would genetically be the same makeup as Jahearys and his sister who were part Targaryen, Blackwood, Dayne, and Martell.

[Eira Seren]

At least 163 liveth in the memory of man but Heresy137 was destroyed by a novice named Vinculus who got caught short one night and grabbed the first thing he saw to wipe his arse afterwards. As it happens all that was lost was the OP which is pretty much the same from heresy to heresy but he was so stricken with terror at what he'd done that he tore up the rest and ate it in an attempt to destroy the evidence.

Unfortunately all the words then appeared on his skin. Like most novices he rarely washed so this curious mark of his guilt went undiscovered for some time. Eventually however the secret came out and his fellow novices were set to copying it out but no-one could agree as to the running order of the posts and some of the text ran into places no-one cared to go so that while a number of transcripts are understood to exist, most are regarded as incomplete or apocryphal.

:bowdown:

I figured out what's in the Winterfell crypts.

The 13th Doctor

Oh, here I thought you were going to say Heresy 163.

Coming back to some proper discussion, I’m inclined to suggest that the business of the Snowflake Communion and Rhaegar’s rubies are related or rather complementary. In discussing what’s really going on we need, I think, to remember that this is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Although the original trilogy has expanded exponentially I think it’s fair to suggest that we still have a story in three [unequal sized parts]; the classic beginning, middle and end. Part the First, the beginning was the Game of Thrones, originally conceived as a feud between the Starks and the Lannisters it was expanded into the War of the Five Kings. That ended with the effective destruction of the Starks and the establishment of the Lannisters on the throne – an old Westerosi family mark you. Not Valyrian upstarts.

Part the Second, otherwise known as the middle and GRRM’s projected second volume, is also drawing to an end. Westeros is in ruins and the Lannisters’ short-lived reign is under serious threat from the Dragonlords.

Now we’re about to embark on Part the Third, GRRM’s projected third volume and the greatest threat at all from up North.

Notwithstanding the way the story has moved since 1993 we’re still looking at that original sketch and what it suggests is that its neither about the struggle for the throne which ruined Westeros, nor about identifying Jon Snow as a Targaryen and heir to that evil throne imposed on Westeros by Aegon the Conqueror. Instead its about Ice and Fire.

So what does that really mean? And here, once again I think it may be worth stepping well back to look at the bigger picture. In the beginning, or at least as far back as anybody knows, Westeros was the land of the children and the Old Gods and, with reference to the Reeds’ oath I still want to refer to them as the Ice, as you’ll see below.

In come the First men, with metal and above all Fire. There’s a lot of damage done but in the end the invaders are absorbed into the land. We’re not talking universal peace and harmony of course but they accept the Old Gods of Westeros. Then come the Andals, again with sword and Fire, but again they become absorbed. Outwardly there’s the Faith of the Seven, but they’ve married into the old families and in real terms there’s more assimilation than opposition

Then come the Valyrians again with Fire, but here it becomes interesting because while the Baratheons marry into and to all intents and purposes become the old Durrandon Storm-lords, the Targaryens themselves refuse to integrate. They marry each other to keep their blood-line pure and don’t become absorbed – they remain outsiders and in the end are kicked outside by an interesting trinity; the Starks, representing the First Men; the Lannisters, First Men with Andal blood; and the Baratheons [or Durrandons], First Men with Andal and Valyrian blood. There are others involved of course but the point, as the Reeds would tell you, is that the land is one.

In the end therefore what we’re looking at is a land which is a compound of Ice and Fire, being menaced on two sides by those who represent the extremes of both; the Ice from the Land of Always Winter and the [Targaryen] Fire from the Land of the Long Summer.

Really interesting :cheers:

And have gone back to copying these things into Word (as opposed to being lazy and bookmarking the links). . .

I would emphasis in suggesting this theory that I'm speaking of a lack of any significant mingling rather than none at all and in this regard I'm also very mindfull of the way that whilst the Starks don't practice incest in the way the Targaryens do they have a very "tight" bloodline with a lot of marrying of cousins and other near relations. They are to a considerable degree a family apart.

Also, there seems to be quite a divide in terms of Stark and Targaryen mingling, at least if we look at the family trees. So the two really are kept a bit separate, with possibly some exceptions (Blackwoods).

[Black Crow]

Correct, the last Targaryen line was actually genetically speaking pretty intermingled despite the incestuous marriages of Aerys and Rahella and Jaehearys and his sister-wife. The current Targaryen line would genetically be the same makeup as Jahearys and his sister who were part Targaryen, Blackwood, Dayne, and Martell.

That may not necessarily be incompatible with what's being discussed in that the Starks aren't actually quite so tight as they appear in so far as the allegation that the Nights King was a Stark - representing full-on Ice as distinct from the Winterfell side.

[King Tyrion XX]

:bowdown:

Oh, here I thought you were going to say Heresy 163.

Really interesting :cheers:

And have gone back to copying these things into Word (as opposed to being lazy and bookmarking the links). . .

Also, there seems to be quite a divide in terms of Stark and Targaryen mingling, at least if we look at the family trees. So the two really are kept a bit separate, with possibly some exceptions (Blackwoods).

Heresy 163 is at the bottom of the Winterfell black pool.

[hammer117]

Back to the discussion though

As I said in my argument the cunning bit about a glamour affecting an opponent's focus in the joust means that only minimal distortion is required since a good opponent ought to be able to place his lance just so - his problem being that the aiming point isn't actually where he sees it to be - hence the business of Rhaegar sailing through without a single lance touching him.

At the Trident however Rhaegar is up against Trouserless Bob who relies on brute force and ignorance rather than finesse and just brays him with a big hammer.

Just as an aside I'd have loved to see a bout between Bob and Syrio

I'm not sure why you characterized Robert like this.

In the very fight you’re saying that he just played Whack-A-Mole with Rhaegar, Robert himself tells us that that isn’t true

Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. “You see what she does to me, Ned.” The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. “My loving wife. The mother of my children.” The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. “I should not have hit her. That was not... that was not kingly.” He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. “I was always strong... no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar... Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.” The king drained his cup.

Robert tells us that he managed to impale Rhaegar right through his heart in their fight. We know from every account of the battle that Robert and Rhaegar fought on horseback in the middle of a river while a battle raged around them. The fact that Robert managed to hit Rhaegar right in the heart in these conditions shows a man who was very much technically proficient and not just randomly ignorantly swinging like a brute. There’s no denying he was strong, but hitting Rhaegar right in the heart shows technique

Furthermore, we have this scene also indicating that he wasn’t just an ignorant brute, and him hitting Rhaegar exactly where he’d kill him with one blow wasn’t luck

“Even the truest knight cannot protect a king against himself,” Ned said. “Robert loved to hunt boar. I have seen him take a thousand of them.” He would stand his ground without flinching, his legs braced, the great spear in his hands, and as often as not he would curse the boar as it charged, and wait until the last possible second, until it was almost on him, before he killed it with a single sure and savage thrust. “No one could know this one would be his death.”

Ned says that he's watched Robert kill a thousand boars with a single thrust of a spear. This isn’t a man savagely beating at a boar until it dies, he’s killing charging boars in one thrust. That’s technique, not ignorance, and it shows that he can hit a target whenever he wants like he did with Rhaegar.

Even in the time that he’s barely able to stand because he’s so drunk, he’s still shows this same deadly accuracy

“Stinks,” Robert said. “The stink of death, don’t think I can’t smell it. Bastard did me good, eh? But I... I paid him back in kind, Ned.” The king’s smile was as terrible as his wound, his teeth red. “Drove a knife right through his eye. Ask them if I didn’t. Ask them.”

“Truly,” Lord Renly murmured. “We brought the carcass back with us, at my brother’s command.”

“My brother was always strong,” Lord Renly said. “Not wise, perhaps, but strong.” In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert’s ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. “He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar.” His voice was full of wonder.

Robert’s drunk and gored to hell by a massive boar… and he manages to draw a dagger and stab it right through its eye and kill it in a single blow. That’s not a brute wildly flailing about on a battlefield, that’s a man instinctively reacting and killing a boar with a single strike in its most vulnerable area. There’s nothing ignorant or pure brute force on display here, that’s pure technique.

Robert wasn’t a man simply flailing about as you’re portraying him. He was stronger than everybody else on the battlefield, but he was also damn good at hitting targets. In these three scenarios he’s not winning because he just Hulk Smashed them, he’s winning because he’s deadly accurate. And that takes talent.

Furthermore, ignoring all the previous evidence of Robert’s skill, we know for a fact that he wasn’t successful just because he smashed about the battlefield with a hammer. We know that he was also damn good with a sword

And so he swept down on Stoney Sept, closed off the town, and began a search. His knights went house to house, smashed in every door, peered into every cellar. He had even sent men crawling through the sewers, yet somehow Robert still eluded him. The townsfolk were hiding him. They moved him from one secret bolt-hole to the next, always one step ahead of the king’s men. The whole town was a nest of traitors. At the end they had the usurper hidden in a brothel. What sort of king was that, who would hide behind the skirts of women? Yet whilst the search dragged on, Eddard Stark and Hoster Tully came down upon the town with a rebel army. Bells and battle followed, and Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand, and almost slew Jon on the steps of the old sept that gave the town its name.

Robert managed to beat Jon Connington, a man specifically chosen to lead the royalist army because he could match Robert’s youth and aggressiveness, while he was wounded and using a weapon that wasn’t his normal choice. If he simply ignorantly smashed about with his hammer, why was he still so good with a sword?

So the idea that Robert was Donkey Konging his way through the battlefield is false. Robert was good because he was strong and fast yes, but he also was good because he actually was damn good.

As to how that would therefore relate to him being able to beat Rhaegar if Rhaegar was using a glamour to make his location difficult to hit which was so successful at Harrenhal, Ned gives us the answer:

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

Ned says that they clashed multiple times. Maybe the first blow Robert suspiciously misses, but if he's in a prolonged fight with Rhaegar, he's got plenty of time to adjust. If he feels like Rhaegar is somehow just slipping his blows, then he's going to adjust and overextend the next one. I'm not sure if many of you guys are MMA fans, but Chris Weidman put this concept perfectly on display when he knocked out Anderson Silva.

Silva famously likes to duck and slip punches at the last moment. He's been described as fighting "In the Matrix" because he's had fights where he pulled off the craziest shit and it looked like he was going to be able to do this once again to Chris. In between rounds however, Weidman's coach famously told him to "punch a fucking hole through his chest". What sounded like hilarious New York style encouragement was actually sound advice. Because when Anderson would lean back to avoid a punch as he always did, he was therefore bringing his head to where his chest used to be. So when Weidman therefore threw a punch at Silva's chest as his coach told him too, the blow hit instead him in the head and knocked him out. Weidman was able to hit an unhittable target because he threw to where Silva would be, not where he was.

The point being here, is that you can compensate and adjust when you've got the guy right in front of you. In a joust, you can't really do this. If Rhaegar was using a glamour at Harrenhal, his opponents would be bearing down on him and miraculously miss, and they wouldn't get a chance to attempt a second blow unless they made it to the next pass. Whereas if Robert misses a blow, Rhaegar is still right in front of him and can immediately launch a second, a third, a fourth, adjusting all the way until he actually hits Rhaegar. Once he's figured out how to hit him, then he just has throw his blow to the right place and he'll kill Rhaegar just like any other opponent.

[wolfmaid7]

Correct, the last Targaryen line was actually genetically speaking pretty intermingled despite the incestuous marriages of Aerys and Rahella and Jaehearys and his sister-wife. The current Targaryen line would genetically be the same makeup as Jahearys and his sister who were part Targaryen, Blackwood, Dayne, and Martell.

Is it safe to say that Roberts emotinal utterance is almost a reality.If Dany is truly barren,then that's it for the Targ line at lease in name.The only chance if Ageon is accepted as a Targ and allowed to carry on that name.

[King Tyrion XX]

Back to the discussion though

I'm not sure why you characterized Robert like this.

In the very fight youre saying that he just played Whack-A-Mole with Rhaegar, Robert himself tells us that that isnt true

Robert tells us that he managed to impale Rhaegar right through his heart in their fight. We know from every account of the battle that Robert and Rhaegar fought on horseback in the middle of a river while a battle raged around them. The fact that Robert managed to hit Rhaegar right in the heart in these conditions shows a man who was very much technically proficient and not just randomly ignorantly swinging like a brute. Theres no denying he was strong, but hitting Rhaegar right in the heart shows technique

Furthermore, we have this scene also indicating that he wasnt just an ignorant brute, and him hitting Rhaegar exactly where hed kill him with one blow wasnt luck

Ned says that he's watched Robert kill a thousand boars with a single thrust of a spear. This isnt a man savagely beating at a boar until it dies, hes killing charging boars in one thrust. Thats technique, not ignorance, and it shows that he can hit a target whenever he wants like he did with Rhaegar.

Even in the time that hes barely able to stand because hes so drunk, hes still shows this same deadly accuracy

Roberts drunk and gored to hell by a massive boar and he manages to draw a dagger and stab it right through its eye and kill it in a single blow. Thats not a brute wildly flailing about on a battlefield, thats a man instinctively reacting and killing a boar with a single strike in its most vulnerable area. Theres nothing ignorant or pure brute force on display here, thats pure technique.

Robert wasnt a man simply flailing about as youre portraying him. He was stronger than everybody else on the battlefield, but he was also damn good at hitting targets. In these three scenarios hes not winning because he just Hulk Smashed them, hes winning because hes deadly accurate. And that takes talent.

Furthermore, ignoring all the previous evidence of Roberts skill, we know for a fact that he wasnt successful just because he smashed about the battlefield with a hammer. We know that he was also damn good with a sword

Robert managed to beat Jon Connington, a man specifically chosen to lead the royalist army because he could match Roberts youth and aggressiveness, while he was wounded and using a weapon that wasnt his normal choice. If he simply ignorantly smashed about with his hammer, why was he still so good with a sword?

So the idea that Robert was Donkey Konging his way through the battlefield is false. Robert was good because he was strong and fast yes, but he also was good because he actually was damn good.

As to how that would therefore relate to him being able to beat Rhaegar if Rhaegar was using a glamour to make his location difficult to hit which was so successful at Harrenhal, Ned gives us the answer:

Ned says that they clashed multiple times. Maybe the first blow Robert suspiciously misses, but if he's in a prolonged fight with Rhaegar, he's got plenty of time to adjust. If he feels like Rhaegar is somehow just slipping his blows, then he's going to adjust and overextend the next one. I'm not sure if many of you guys are MMA fans, but Chris Weidman put this concept perfectly on display when he knocked out Anderson Silva.

Silva famously likes to duck and slip punches at the last moment. He's been described as fighting "In the Matrix" because he's had fights where he pulled off the craziest shit and it looked like he was going to be able to do this once again to Chris. In between rounds however, Weidman's coach famously told him to "punch a fucking hole through his chest". What sounded like hilarious New York style encouragement was actually sound advice. Because when Anderson would lean back to avoid a punch as he always did, he was therefore bringing his head to where his chest used to be. So when Weidman therefore threw a punch at Silva's chest as his coach told him too, the blow hit instead him in the head and knocked him out. Weidman was able to hit an unhittable target because he threw to where Silva would be, not where he was.

The point being here, is that you can compensate and adjust when you've got the guy right in front of you. In a joust, you can't really do this. If Rhaegar was using a glamour at Harrenhal, his opponents would be bearing down on him and miraculously miss, and they wouldn't get a chance to attempt a second blow unless they made it to the next pass. Whereas if Robert misses a blow, Rhaegar is still right in front of him and can immediately launch a second, a third, a fourth, adjusting all the way until he actually hits Rhaegar. Once he's figured out how to hit him, then he just has throw his blow to the right place and he'll kill Rhaegar just like any other opponent.

I was a big UFC fan til they started rigging it heavily. Most notably with Silva's several year span of purposefully weak opponents...except the referee stoppage in the 2nd Sonnen fight.

Anyway great post on Robert's skill. One of the few good things he retained while letting himself get fat. I'm still rooting for it to somehow be his head on Robert Strong and that that's where the name Robert comes from.