Heresy 164

[Voice]

I like the discussion of sphinxes, and the DtwP... but don't think the sphinx itself is Valyrian in origin. I expect the Valyrian sphinx is just a subtype of an idea that dates further back in time (perhaps to Asshai)... and the "towering" sphinxes at the Citadel look rather non-Valyrian, to me. The male/female question also looks like a promising avenue for exploration. Connecting the sphinx with Others, dragons, ice, fire, and the Stranger.

We've nothing to suggest sphinxes are Asshai'i, and everything to suggest they are Valyrian. The motif itself may be proto-Valyrian, but there is no doubt proper Valyrians adopted the device as their own.

I'm leaning more toward the idea Valyria is older than the maesters claim.

I said this a few posts ago ,the red bolded is it.Given the continuous theme of man and beast bonding be it naturally or not i think its safe to say and given the context of Aemon's speech it has to do with man an beast as one.I touched on the mythical aspect of the Sphinx in by Dragon bonding thread.But the Sphinx in mythos is the symbol for metamorphasis and shapeshifting.A being that also straddles two worlds not unlike skinchanging or to put it more intimately....Man and beast mingling their spirits.

:cheers:

We see by the dialog that there's a clear differentiation between Valyrian and normal sphinxes, so it is reasonable to conclude that the sphinxes of oldtown are not valyrian, that's not to say that they have no relation, at the very least there's a motif there.

Still on the subject of oldtown, one of the things that intrigues me the most it the construction that resembles valyrian work in "method" but not in motif, and long precede Valyria. Cold it be the remnant's of a civilization that had similar magic and met a similar fate? Could the remnant's of this civilization be Asshai, and the shadowland the only place where they remain? (not unlike the WW in the Lands of Always Winter)

I was going on based on BC earlier post, but it's worth noting that Giant's apparently thrive in the cold and with such thick fur they would be ill adapted to live in Dorne.

I agree about the sphinxes, but they still seem Valyrian to me. Proto-Valyrian perhaps, but Valyrian. Half-human, half-dragon, they are the artistic representation of the bonds of dragonlords.

Hairy people live where they will, not just Russia. And all a giant need do is shave if he's too hot LOL

I'm beaten to the punch here by Mark, but it's worth pointing out that there's nothing that specifically disassociates the giants with ice, nor suggests that the gods they kept were the Old Gods of the Forest. For example, one of the places we know that the giants buried their dead is the Frostfangs, a notably cold and barren site, and probably incompatible with being 'taken' by the roots of the weirwood.

The WB also confirms that the giants were left out of the Pact, even though they lost just as much land as the CotF.

Edit: And there is this Old Nan tale:

"She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood."

Dark Castle = Nightfort?

The Frostfangs isn't the only place where giants buried their dead. And their absence from the Pact is not evidence of their connection to ice. Giant seem better adapted to higher elevations, unlike weirwoods, so I would expect them to not keep faith with them.

Oh, I get the male-dominated, patriarchal society of the current narrative - and we certainly see these rationalizations in play throughout the story. But it's the "pair of towering green sphinxes... one [with] a man's face, one a woman's," monuments guarding the very gates of the Citadel itself, which give me pause. Makes me think there might be a more specific, more interesting story related to the role of women in the history of Maesters...

Me as well. But I think this has more to do with a Valyrian connection than a once co-ed Citadel. Women in Oldtown aren't exactly given the same opportunities as women. Sarella is pretending to be a boy just so she can study, and the maidenhead of Pate's dreamgirl is still for sale, by her mother I believe. This is a medieval fantasy world where women are the mothers, men are the masters. Unless a woman is the Mother of Dragons, of course, then she is both :D

I don't see any reason why Aemon should know of or comment on Alleras specifically, I just think that he/she is a textual example of a sphinx.

Agreed.

[Balerion06]

Yeah, my point is that it can be interpreted in a number of ways. Cersei herself has convinced herself that the prophecy is a literal one and that her brother Tyrion is the danger.

It could be a brother in the sense of someone else's brother.

It could be a member of a brotherhood, and so on, but what I'm suggesting is that we can't rule out its being a nickname for a disease. The pale mare for example isn't what I what I would describe as a medical term, yet we understand it to be a disease and for all that we know the valonqar might be the same.We know of course about a poison called the Strangler so its not inconceivable that the Valonqar might be its "natural" form.

I'm still going with my crackpot that the prophecy only exists in Cersei's head. Maggy may have given Cersei some vague gibberish about the future, but I suspect that Cersei's paranoia keeps inventing the details. Notice how the prophecy continues to become more and more concrete in Cersei's mind the further her paranoia and craziness start taking over.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I don't see any reason why Aemon should know of or comment on Alleras specifically, I just think that he/she is a textual example of a sphinx.

:agree:

I agree. But as sphinxes are literally half-human and half-dragon, they are clear metaphors for the bond between humans and dragons. And they mark Valyrian entrances. Valyrians enter the bond between humans and dragons. So the motif seems apt for them.

The Valyrian sphinx seems to be the dragon-human combo... but the sphinxes at the Citadel do not include dragons. We get a pretty good, and rather generic, definition of what the word "sphinx" means in Oldtown, from Pate in the AFFC Prologue:

It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras "the Sphinx." A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel's main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx. (4.00, PROLOGUE-PATE)

Notably, this comment is offered right in the midst of the boys' discussion of dragons... but the sphinx and the dragon are not related one to the other. Pate considers the idea of the sphinx in connection with Alleras... while the other boys discuss dragons in connection with Targaryens. Which is not to say the two concepts have nothing to do with one another... just that the sphinx doesn't necessarily involve dragons. See the example above - human, lion, hawk - which also describes the Sphinx guardians of the Citadel gates:

The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's. (4.45, SAMWELL)

There is also, apparently, more to be revealed with respect to traditions involving dragons and sphinxes as distinct entities. And it is in that context, that Maester Aemon's comment seems to apply - at least in part. There are several brief references to this tradition, in which (apparently) the sphinx is a riddler, and the dragon attempts to solve the riddle:

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales." (4.00, PROLOGUE-PATE)

"Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes... nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well..." (5.57, TYRION)

[Maester Aemon] spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. (4.35, SAMWELL)

Obviously, Martin's holding some stuff back here... but I think there's enough for us to conclude that the dragon and the sphinx are separate creatures. My own notion here is that the sphinx represents a more general rule having to do with magic and human relationship with the world. The sphinx at the Citadel, the one without a dragon component, is actually more like what we'd call a griffin... and we know griffins themselves appear elsewhere in Martin's story. (The arms and sigil of House Connington is one instance... but there is also mention of a "Griffin King" who ruled the Vale prior to the arrival of the Andals.) If the sphinx, as a concept, is flexible enough to incorporate dragons in Essos, and lions in Oldtown... then I also wonder if it might not work as a metaphor for the relationship between humans and other animals. Direwolves, for instance. In other words... rather than being a concept specifically tied to Valyria and dragons, it seems likely (in my mind) to represent a more general, more basic truth about humans and skinchanging.

[Black Crow]

I agree, that's exactly what I was suggesting.

Nice summary of the evidence

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And actually, an interesting case could be made - based on these statements:

"Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales." (4.00, PROLOGUE-PATE)

"Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools... dragons riddling with sphinxes... nonsense, all of it." (5.57, TYRION)

"the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler" (4.35, SAMWELL)

...that Quaithe plays the role of Sphinx to Dany's Dragon, at least in terms of that old tales "nonsense." Now, is Quaithe the riddler, or the riddle? I'd have to think about that. At the moment, I might say both...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I agree, that's exactly what I was suggesting.

Nice summary of the evidence

Thanks! I thought that was basically what you were saying... :cheers:

[Voice]

The Valyrian sphinx seems to be the dragon-human combo... but the sphinxes at the Citadel do not include dragons. We get a pretty good, and rather generic, definition of what the word "sphinx" means in Oldtown, from Pate in the AFFC Prologue:

It had been Lazy Leo who dubbed Alleras "the Sphinx." A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander. His own skin was dark as teak. And like the green marble sphinxes that flanked the Citadel's main gate, Alleras had eyes of onyx. (4.00, PROLOGUE-PATE)

Notably, this comment is offered right in the midst of the boys' discussion of dragons... but the sphinx and the dragon are not related one to the other. Pate considers the idea of the sphinx in connection with Alleras... while the other boys discuss dragons in connection with Targaryens. Which is not to say the two concepts have nothing to do with one another... just that the sphinx doesn't necessarily involve dragons. See the example above - human, lion, hawk - which also describes the Sphinx guardians of the Citadel gates:

The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's. (4.45, SAMWELL)

There is also, apparently, more to be revealed with respect to traditions related to dragons and sphinxes as distinct entities. And it is in that context, that Maester Aemon's comment seems to apply - at least in part. There are several brief references to this tradition, in which (apparently) the sphinx is a riddler, and the dragon attempts to solve the riddle:

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales." (4.00, PROLOGUE-PATE)

"Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes... nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well..." (5.57, TYRION)

[Maester Aemon] spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. (4.35, SAMWELL)

Obviously, Martin's holding some stuff back here... but I think there's enough for us to conclude that the dragon and the sphinx are separate creatures. My own notion here is that the sphinx represents a more general rule having to do with magic and human relationship with the world. The sphinxes at the Citadel, the ones without dragons, is actually more like what we'd call a griffin... and we know that griffins themselves appear elsewhere in Martin's story. (The arms and sigil of House Connington is one instance... but there is also mention of a "Griffin King" who ruled the Vale prior to the arrival of the Andals.) If the sphinx, as a concept, is flexible enough to incorporate dragons in Essos, and Lions in Oldtown... then I also wonder if it might not work as a metaphor for the relationship between humans and other animals. Direwolves, for instance. In other words... rather than being a concept specifically tied to Valyria and dragons, it seems more likely (in my mind) to represent a more general, more basic truth about humans and skinchanging.

I don't disagree, Oldtown's sphinxes are the odd ones of the three pairs we see.

But still, being that this riddle/riddler comment came from Aemon Targaryen, on his deathbed, after becoming re-infatuated with the idea of dragons, I tend to view his comment in a Valyrian light and believe he is referring to the Valyrian variety of sphinxes. Eddard IV AGOT:

The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls were hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

Tyrion II ADWD:

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

So we have generic sphinxes, like those in Oldtown, that are a combination of many creatures... and the Valyrian sphinxes that are a specific combination of human and dragon. It's up for debate of course, as to which type Aemon was referring to.

[Matthew.]

The Frostfangs isn't the only place where giants buried their dead.

No, but clearly some subset of the giants found it to be a perfectly suitable place to bury the dead; now this, could just be a matter of convenience, or it could be that this particular group held the Frostfangs to be a sacred place.

Broadly speaking, I don't like the idea of treating "Ice" and "Fire" as monolithic factions with motives of their own. Instead, I think they're simply powers, tools that can be tapped into. In that regard, I think any race living on the far northern margins of Westeros (especially if the Heart of Winter is a real thing) could be a potential suspect for utilizing ice magic, especially if such cultures have traditions of blood sacrifice related to ice and winter. The Others could be their own distinct race, but I see no reason why it couldn't also be humans, Singers, or giants utilizing the magic of the land they inhabit.

Also, I don't agree that it's strictly true that the CotF are never associated with ice--they have a servant, Coldhands, who smells "cold all over." While I think it's more likely that he was resurrected as a wight and subsequently had his autonomy restored by either BR or the CotF, I think we shouldn't assume that using ice magic is somehow out of the question for a race that's so old, and has a massive storehouse of knowledge to tap into via weirnet.

[Blade of Sunlight]

I don't see any reason why Aemon should know of or comment on Alleras specifically, I just think that he/she is a textual example of a sphinx.

:agree:

And I also don't know how a blind man would have orchestrated anything related to Sam with someone in citadel without Sam knowing about it since he wrote the letters

About the valonqar, we know that it's valyrian for "younger brother", but how far from an actual "younger brother" can we deviate? We don'tn know how specific the word was in valyrian, for example Train in some language could be something like "Steel-wagon", and yet when we say train we mean train, not a steel wagon. That's assuming the wood's witch was thinking/seeing the vision in Valyrian, otherwise we have a further step some language to valyrian to common tongue, which could add more variety to the meanings. And of course if the vision was a riddle (as most are) then it's all game

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I think Aemon while on the brink of death had some type of revelation about the sphinx he may not even know it has to do with sarella/alleras. It could be a prophetic dream which targs get from time to time or it could be he was reached out to in a dream via glass candle. And in my opinion the sphinx crap will stop there. I think Martin is trying to get to look at the "sphinx" with scepticism which should lead to the Alleras =sarella. IMO

[Black Crow]

Or simply a sphinx is not what it seems

[PrettyPig]

About the valonqar, we know that it's valyrian for "younger brother", but how far from an actual "younger brother" can we deviate? We don'tn know how specific the word was in valyrian, for example Train in some language could be something like "Steel-wagon", and yet when we say train we mean train, not a steel wagon. That's assuming the wood's witch was thinking/seeing the vision in Valyrian, otherwise we have a further step some language to valyrian to common tongue, which could add more variety to the meanings. And of course if the vision was a riddle (as most are) then it's all game

That's my issue - the actual meaning being 'lost in translation', I'm not convinced it's going to be that complex....even Summer POV text is written in a way that demonstrates obvious meaning even though it's seen through the eyes of a direwolf - I mean, "winged snake/roar was river of flame" = Summer saw a dragon. Whether it was a REAL dragon or merely the SHAPE of a dragon in the fire is open to interpretation, but regardless, Summer saw a dragon. I apply the same logic to valonqar - 'little brother' to WHAT is yet unclear, but IMO the translation is going to be straightforward and mean 'little brother' and not 'Dornish wine' or 'consumption'.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Or simply a sphinx is not what it seems

Yes that is all GRRM is trying to get across IMO. I dont think we need to spend much more time on it if everyone agrees... unless you all want to completely break down sphinxs' in the story cuz your bored

[Voice]

No, but clearly some subset of the giants found it to be a perfectly suitable place to bury the dead; now this, could just be a matter of convenience, or it could be that this particular group held the Frostfangs to be a sacred place.

Broadly speaking, I don't like the idea of treating "Ice" and "Fire" as monolithic factions with motives of their own. Instead, I think they're simply powers, tools that can be tapped into. In that regard, I think any race living on the far northern margins of Westeros (especially if the Heart of Winter is a real thing) could be a potential suspect for utilizing ice magic, especially if such cultures have traditions of blood sacrifice related to ice and winter. The Others could be their own distinct race, but I see no reason why it couldn't also be humans, Singers, or giants utilizing the magic of the land they inhabit.

Also, I don't agree that it's strictly true that the CotF are never associated with ice--they have a servant, Coldhands, who smells "cold all over." While I think it's more likely that he was resurrected as a wight and subsequently had his autonomy restored by either BR or the CotF, I think we shouldn't assume that using ice magic is somehow out of the question for a race that's so old, and has a massive storehouse of knowledge to tap into via weirnet.

I don't disagree with any of this. I only object to the generalization and that tends to happen when people look beyond the Wall. They see ancient non-human races there. They see Others there. They see the Others wielding Ice. They see cold places and cold mountains, snows and frozen rivers. Then, they assume the non-Other other ancients are connected to Ice.

This is simply wrong.

Children of the forest covered all of Westeros. They hold no loyalties to the north. They are not Starks. The same is true of giants.

Giants seem about as un-magical as it gets in the series. Cotf are of Earth. That may sound like a monolithic statement to you, but it's their own statement after all, their very endonym.

Fire is a power folks can tap. We've seen a few. I view Ice as a power to be tapped into as well. Clearly, there are Men who have done just that. But, we do not know Coldhands is anyone's servant. His loyalties may simply be with the NW. We don't know. We certainly don't know enough to assume he is a servant of BR or the cotf. Like Samwell, all he's done is aid Bran Stark in his journey north, and Samwell isn't a servant of BR or the cotf.

And, even if CH chose to serve wielders of Earth Magic, that only means those wielders of Earth Magic have a cold servant, rather than wield Ice Magic for themselves.

Until we see an Avatar utilizing more than one element, I am content to treat them as exclusionary powers. It would feel quite out of sorts if we saw Dany raising Mother Rhoyne to flood her enemies, just as it would feel out of sorts to see Leaf throwing fireballs at skeleton (ice?) men. Earth is Earth, Ice is Ice, and Fire is Fire. Each has its own. Each imbues power in its own. Each wields its own.

[Blade of Sunlight]

I don't disagree with any of this. I only object to the generalization and that tends to happen when people look beyond the Wall. They see ancient non-human races there. They see Others there. They see the Others wielding Ice. They see cold places and cold mountains, snows and frozen rivers. Then, they assume the non-Other other ancients are connected to Ice.

This is simply wrong.

Children of the forest covered all of Westeros. They hold no loyalties to the north. They are not Starks. The same is true of giants.

Giants seem about as un-magical as it gets in the series. Cotf are of Earth. That may sound like a monolithic statement to you, but it's their own statement after all, their very endonym.

Fire is a power folks can tap. We've seen a few. I view Ice as a power to be tapped into as well. Clearly, there are Men who have done just that. But, we do not know Coldhands is anyone's servant. His loyalties may simply be with the NW. We don't know. We certainly don't know enough to assume he is a servant of BR or the cotf. Like Samwell, all he's done is aid Bran Stark in his journey north, and Samwell isn't a servant of BR or the cotf.

And, even if CH chose to serve wielders of Earth Magic, that only means those wielders of Earth Magic have a cold servant, rather than wield Ice Magic for themselves.

Until we see an Avatar utilizing more than one element, I am content to treat them as exclusionary powers. It would feel quite out of sorts if we saw Dany raising Mother Rhoyne to flood her enemies, just as it would feel out of sorts to see Leaf throwing fireballs at skeleton (ice?) men. Earth is Earth, Ice is Ice, and Fire is Fire. Each has its own. Each imbues power in its own. Each wields its own.

Though I agree we don't see much cross-wielding of magic (exept perhaps Mel Fire/Shadowbinder), to me this boils down to actually defining what is what, which with magic is not that simple:

CotF are Earth, ok, but then they use water in the Hammer, so we have greenseers/wargs + Water, you could argue that's all nature, but that's generic.

Then we have the Starks, everyone seems to think they are Ice (and with some good reasons), and yet they only display warging/greenseeing (which is Earth).

The Rhoynar, Water power, but no warging as far as we know, and then they create grayscale, which is Earth maybe?, but doesn't appear to be Water.

Mel is Fire and Shadow, again you could box it all as Light (which is what she does).

Then of Fire we have both Dragons/Valyria and the Red lot, maybe they are different, true Fire vs Light, but then there's Beric/Mqorro who clearly are Fire but are from the red lot.

The Others are obviously Ice and nothing more (as of yet)

And then there's the Ironborn which talk of sea dragons and more gods and power, of which we are yet to see anything relevant.

To sum up, it's pretty hard to define which is which, what is separate, and where or not there can be overlaps.

[Black Crow]

We've nothing to suggest sphinxes are Asshai'i, and everything to suggest they are Valyrian. The motif itself may be proto-Valyrian, but there is no doubt proper Valyrians adopted the device as their own.

I'm leaning more toward the idea Valyria is older than the maesters claim.

It would probably be more true to say on the one hand that Valyria is older than they believe but that the Valyrian civilisation may be founded not on simple sheep-herders in possession of dragons, but upon an older civilization possessed of magic.

[Matthew.]

And, even if CH chose to serve wielders of Earth Magic, that only means those wielders of Earth Magic have a cold servant, rather than wield Ice Magic for themselves.

Again, not necessarily. We don't know whether CH considers himself loyal to the CotF, nor that their magic had anything to do with his present state, but he is an example of something "ice" related who's also associated with the Singers, so it shouldn't be considered out of the realm of possibility that they could use all kinds of magic, if necessary.

They also use frozen flame/obsidian/dragonglass as their weapon of choice, which has been more associated with fire throughout the series, which brings us to an essential problem with how strictly we should view the implications of "Singing the Song of Earth." Is molten earth less "of the earth" than the weirwoods and the caverns of the Singers? What of a frozen mountain peak?

And, as Blade of Sunlight pointed out, House Stark clearly utilizes earth magic, yet we're all assuming they have some distant association with ice magic as well; and hell, Jon might be associated with ice, earth, and fire depending on what direction GRRM takes him. There's also Arya, again born with 'earth magic' but learning the magic of the Faceless Men.

IMHO, magic in Planetos does not discriminate, and is simply there for taking if someone is willing to pay the blood price. While I don't really lean toward the notion that the WWs of the Long Night were raised by giants or the CotF, I don't think it's a possibility that's incompatible with the magic of the world, especially if the LN was a desperate response to the FM's conquests.

[Frey family reunion]

I don't disagree, Oldtown's sphinxes are the odd ones of the three pairs we see.

But still, being that this riddle/riddler comment came from Aemon Targaryen, on his deathbed, after becoming re-infatuated with the idea of dragons, I tend to view his comment in a Valyrian light and believe he is referring to the Valyrian variety of sphinxes. Eddard IV AGOT:

The chamber was richly furnished. Myrish carpets covered the floor instead of rushes, and in one corner a hundred fabulous beasts cavorted in bright paints on a carved screen from the Summer Isles. The walls were hung with tapestries from Norvos and Qohor and Lys, and a pair of Valyrian sphinxes flanked the door, eyes of polished garnet smoldering in black marble faces.

Tyrion II ADWD:

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

So we have generic sphinxes, like those in Oldtown, that are a combination of many creatures... and the Valyrian sphinxes that are a specific combination of human and dragon. It's up for debate of course, as to which type Aemon was referring to.

Yes, I agree Aemon would have been referring to a Valyrian sphinx, and in the context of the sphinx being the riddle not the riddler, I think what he's literally referring to is how to transfer the consciousness of a human (or more specifically a Targaryen) into the body of a dragon (thus a dragon with the face or head of a human). Literally making someone the head of a dragon. My guess is this is a Valyrian legend, probably related to the Prince that was Promised, which is made even more significant when the Targs moved to Westeros and come into contact with skinchangers.

[Matthew.]

It would probably be more true to say on the one hand that Valyria is older than they believe but that the Valyrian civilisation may be founded not on simple sheep-herders in possession of dragons, but upon an older civilization possessed of magic.

This puts me in mind of this blurb from the Valyria section in the World Book:

"In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals."

While I don't think that's strictly accurate, it is interesting that the shadowbinders do seem to keep popping up in relation to the awakening of dragons; Aegon V sent for shadowbinders before the Tragedy at Summerhall, MMD trained with the shadowbinders, Quaithe has conveniently popped up to "guide" Dany, and Melisandre of Asshai is in the west, talking about waking dragons from stone. For some reason or another, people who pay a visit to the Shadow seem to be very interesting in ensuring that there are dragons in the world.

Edit: Excepting MMD, who seems to be a classic case of unintentionally fulfilling a prophecy in the act of trying to prevent it.

[wolfmaid7]

Again, not necessarily. We don't know whether CH considers himself loyal to the CotF, nor that their magic had anything to do with his present state, but he is an example of something "ice" related who's also associated with the Singers, so it shouldn't be considered out of the realm of possibility that they could use all kinds of magic, if necessary.

They also use frozen flame/obsidian/dragonglass as their weapon of choice, which has been more associated with fire throughout the series, which brings us to an essential problem with how strictly we should view the implications of "Singing the Song of Earth." Is molten earth less "of the earth" than the weirwoods and the caverns of the Singers? What of a frozen mountain peak?

And, as Blade of Sunlight pointed out, House Stark clearly utilizes earth magic, yet we're all assuming they have some distant association with ice magic as well; and hell, Jon might be associated with ice, earth, and fire depending on what direction GRRM takes him. There's also Arya, again born with 'earth magic' but learning the magic of the Faceless Men.

IMHO, magic in Planetos does not discriminate, and is simply there for taking if someone is willing to pay the blood price. While I don't really lean toward the notion that the WWs of the Long Night were raised by giants or the CotF, I don't think it's a possibility that's incompatible with the magic of the world, especially if the LN was a desperate response to the FM's conquests.

We have to consider alligences and bedfellows for probably a common cause.Because CHs ensured Bran and Co made it to the Cave doesn't mean the Children'smagic had anything to do with.It could simply mean that he scratched BR's back and maybe he's getting something out of the deal.

Then we come down to magic "different" types of magic of which in reality there's only two types.Natural and Sorcery and the different manifestations are how certain people choose or may have aptitude for certain elements.

It should be noted that "Greenseeing" is NOT earth magic that's just a label a faction chooses to ascribe to what is prophetic dreaming. Its not different than the Targs prophetic dreaming but we don't go around calling it "Fire dreams".

The labels detract from it all being the same source with just different manifestations.