Heresy 164

[TheSmallOther]

Finally, Quaithe's ramble about going south to go north, going east to go west, and passing beneath the shadow to "touch the light," sounds to me like encouragement to take a journey to Asshai, pass beneath the Shadow, and visit the Heart of Fire ("the light").

___

Just a practical note. I really hope GRRM is not going to listen to Quaithe. Otherwise he'll need another 5 books to get Dany to Westeros.

[King Tyrion XX]

I can agree with that :cheers:

I must admit that while I personally don't want the overarching message of the series to be a Mr. Garrison type of warning that "Magics are bad... m'kay?" I can't help but wonder if that will be the case.

Magic will be grey just like everything else.

[Blade of Sunlight]

If i look at what V6 accomplish with his natural gift and his collection of 6 skins and compare his "damage" if you call it that to and say Mel we can see the difference. V6 actions are localized to his person and does not have an environmental or regional affect.Mel does.

The Greenseers though too are examples of the bending of natural law.Though naturally gifted its the same as i think you are trying to say.This is where it comes back to the heart of man in conflict with itself.This was also V6 struggle,which he failed at.

I still can't see clearly where the line between sorcery and "natural" magic is, skinchanging came from somewhere, and at least for humans it wasn't "natural" at all.

[wolfmaid7]

I understand the concept, I'm just saying that even by that standard, I don't believe that was the entirety of his original intent. Both the synopsis and Bran's vision represent the journeys in more literal terms; I'm not saying the figurative journey into the darkness of the human heart isn't there, and wasn't always intended to be there, but I think he did have something more fantasy-ish in his original plans as well.

The "hearts" idea that I'm suggesting is even roughly in line with what you were talking about earlier in the thread, with the CotF being able to tap into ice magic more easily and readily in response to the invasions of men because of their proximity to the LoaW; I think the 'source' they're tapping into is a site similar to the Isle of Faces, where mass blood sacrifices were performed to create a site of concentrated power.

This passage from the WB describing how the Breaking of Dorne was unleashed is an example of what I envision:

___

"Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these

invaders.

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled."

___

My premise is that the "Heart of Winter" is a sort of icy corollary, a site of power, where mass sacrifice causes the unnatural winters, and the mass wight-ification of the dead north of the Wall.

I'm suggesting this as a setting/world element, rather than a plot point that will be specifically tackled or 'solved' before series end.

This is exactly what i think is happening noting that like with breaking of the arm it was etended power of the GSs.I keep quoting this text and somehow i think people are missing it by focusing on the Children.But its a symbiotic relationship in that they sing their songs and possibly do a little blood shedding ,ultimately it is the GSs that move the "s**t"

and if what the WB says is true and i believe it,there is a posse of children and definitely a human GS in the LOAW.And the thing is they never got defeated.The GS during the time of the LN probably got exchanged or as i believe they got a human GS for the first time.

[wolfmaid7]

I still can't see clearly where the line between sorcery and "natural" magic is, skinchanging came from somewhere, and at least for humans it wasn't "natural" at all.

I disagree,the fact remains that Skinchangers are born and therefore are natural.They may be a mutation occuring naturally among a population or a product of cross-breeding for all we know.You know that saying "life(magic) finds a way". Sorceres on the other hand are not born they become so by bending natural forces via sacrifices of seed and or blood.It corrupts and changes them physically over time.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I disagree,the fact remains that Skinchangers are born and therefore are natural.They may be a mutation occuring naturally among a population or a product of cross-breeding for all we know.You know that saying "life(magic) finds a way". Sorceres on the other hand are not born they become so by bending natural forces via sacrifices of seed and or blood.It corrupts and changes them physically over time.

How does this differ from the discussion we had back in the day (a year ago, or more?) regarding "Natural" and "Worked" magic? I recall that we, more or less, decided those terms didn't really work. But it doesn't sound too far off from what you're proposing here, with magic and sorcery.

In terms of the disciplines at the Citadel, and the links in the Maester's Chain... would you agree that Ravenry (black iron link, Archmaester Walgrave) is representative of Natural Magic, and that the Higher Mysteries (Valyrian steel link, Archmaester Marwyn) is representative of Sorcery?

[Black Crow]

Sounds good to me.

[diskoerekto]

Very, VERY interesting observation. I had generally considered them as separate, with the exception of Mel, but you make a convincing argument for a link between them. I wouldn't exclude MMD at all; in fact, her death at the hatching may have been a requirement, along with Drogo's king's blood, the sacrifice of Rhaego, and a true Targaryen present. That's a mix you don't get just any day.

Something just occurred to me. The one other time we had a similar mix (including an impending birth) was at Summerhall. What if.... crackpot warning... they really hatched a dragon at Summerhall? And it cost the life of Rhaella's baby, so she had to borrow one... which goes nicely with the "Rhaegar isn't Rhaegar" theory where he is really Duncan's kid, exchanged at SH.

(assuming RLJ)

Jon exchanged babies and is an exchanged baby and he is son of Rheagar

Rheagar exchanged babies and is an exchanged baby and he is son of Duncan

if Duncan exchanges a baby in Dunk&Egg stories, I will be sure that this is some rolling destiny on this bloodline.

[hammer117]

I disagree,the fact remains that Skinchangers are born and therefore are natural.They may be a mutation occuring naturally among a population or a product of cross-breeding for all we know.You know that saying "life(magic) finds a way". Sorceres on the other hand are not born they become so by bending natural forces via sacrifices of seed and or blood.It corrupts and changes them physically over time.

This doesn't actually work, as we know that Luwin tried to do magic but could not

Luwin slid a finger up under his collar and began to turn it, inch by inch. He had a thick neck for a small man, and the chain was tight, but a few pulls had it all the way around. “This is Valyrian steel,” he said when the link of dark grey metal lay against the apple of his throat. “Only one maester in a hundred wears such a link. This signifies that I have studied what the Citadel calls the higher mysteries-magic, for want of a better word. A fascinating pursuit, but of small use, which is why so few maesters trouble themselves with it.

“All those who study the higher mysteries try their own hand at spells, soon or late. I yielded to the temptation too, I must confess it. Well, I was a boy, and what boy does not secretly wish to find hidden powers in himself? I got no more for my efforts than a thousand boys before me, and a thousand since. Sad to say, magic does not work.”

Now whether that's because the Citadel purposely teaches things that won't work, that's up for debate, but Marwyn certainly found a way to make magic work as he got the glass candles to burn, a feat which every maester attempts to do when they stand their vigil

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. “The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper... only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try.”

Armen says here that the candles cut the men who attempt to light the candles. So blood is involved when acolytes try to light the candles, yet they never manage to do it even though the sacrifice of blood is there. But Marwyn managed to light the candle, and no doubt he tried all the same things that the acolytes tried which would suggest that magic does rely upon some kind of innate power, as well as the sacrifices. Otherwise everyone who attempts to light the candle and spills their blood would manage to light it.

[Black Crow]

This doesn't actually work, as we know that Luwin tried to do magic but could not

Not necessarily, there has always been a shrewd suspicion that Maester Luwin knows more than he admits

[wolfmaid7]

This doesn't actually work, as we know that Luwin tried to do magic but could not

Now whether that's because the Citadel purposely teaches things that won't work, that's up for debate, but Marwyn certainly found a way to make magic work as he got the glass candles to burn, a feat which every maester attempts to do when they stand their vigil

Armen says here that the candles cut the men who attempt to light the candles. So blood is involved when acolytes try to light the candles, yet they never manage to do it even though the sacrifice of blood is there. But Marwyn managed to light the candle, and no doubt he tried all the same things that the acolytes tried which would suggest that magic does rely upon some kind of innate power, as well as the sacrifices. Otherwise everyone who attempts to light the candle and spills their blood would manage to light it.

I was just about to bring up the Candles,that is sorcery.Now why it didn't work for Luuwin could be a number of things including his payment may not have been acceptable and or his will may have been weak.He may not have actually believed in what he was doing.

Now cutting yourself trying to light a candle isn't going to do it,it takes will and study.That' s the reason why Mel could boast and say she was more skilled than her fellows.Its a craft that they are learning,it doesn't come naturally.

How does this differ from the discussion we had back in the day (a year ago, or more?) regarding "Natural" and "Worked" magic? I recall that we, more or less, decided those terms didn't really work. But it doesn't sound too far off from what you're proposing here, with magic and sorcery.

In terms of the disciplines at the Citadel, and the links in the Maester's Chain... would you agree that Ravenry (black iron link, Archmaester Walgrave) is representative of Natural Magic, and that the Higher Mysteries (Valyrian steel link, Archmaester Marwyn) is representative of Sorcery?

A year ago i was saying the same thing that worked magic is sorcery and as long as you pay the right price you can work a spell. I would definitely consider Ravenry as natural magic and Marwyn as Sorcery.

Though we have to consider Walgrave's true identity.I suspect some Skinchanging abilities with him.

[wolfmaid7]

Not necessarily, there has always been a shrewd suspicion that Maester Luwin knows more than he admits

Agree with this as well,but as i said before he may not have (1) Given the right price (2) Had the will and belief in what he was doing.It might have been a passing fancy and because it was that nothing happened.

Some of them at the Citadel took this serious and dedicated themselves to it and may have gotten results because they made it a study.

[Voice]

Here in lies the conundrum,on one hand we have that ole riddle or saying.Do guns kill people or do people kill people.Coming from a background where magic is very much engrained in my life there is that concept of magic NOT being good or bad it depends entirely on the person that wields it.We don't have "commandments" in magical lore that dictates what is right or wrong.But the one code that is pretty much across the board is " An harm ye none do as ye will." When the whole Rede is taken it is (1) Are you willing to pay the price (2) You are cautioned not to do harm because of (1).

As you can see its less about the tool and more about the heart of whose hands the tool is.Hence the reason it is easy to see how and why things in this story is a bit messed up and not to forget GRRM's reason about what is worth writing about because at the heart of this there is a heart involved.

I don't think we are very far off,i don't think there's a Dark lord either rather if we get down to the nitty gritty what we have is people be it natural or via sorcery wielding different manifestations of magic.But lets not forget at the root cause of these are human hearts,people with emotions,agendas,possible vendetta's and pasts.Or like Mel a complete screwed up view of how they think things should go.

I hear what you're saying and don't disagree. People are messing with nature. But cotf are not practicing Wicca, animism or paganism. They may reflect elements of those real world belief systems, but in GRRM's universe, I can't shake the feeling they may well be holding swords without hilts. After all, a dragonglass dagger is just that :cool4:

Come to think of it, I don't think the blades of the white walkers we've seen have hilts either. Mayhaps Dalla was repeating a specific warning about a specific magic... fits the context of the conversation after all:

Jon faced him. "If you've had the Horn of Joramun all along, why haven't you used it? Why bother building turtles and sending Thenns to kill us in our beds? If this horn is all the songs say, why not just sound it and be done?"

It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. "We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

Magic will be grey just like everything else.

I don't know. Grey magic we got. Grey, and running across a snow white field.

[wolfmaid7]

I hear what you're saying and don't disagree. People are messing with nature. But cotf are not practicing Wicca, animism or paganism. They may reflect elements of those real world belief systems, but in GRRM's universe, I can't shake the feeling they may well be holding swords without hilts. After all, a dragonglass dagger is just that :cool4:

Actually there you are wrong there,they actually are practicing animism...I will go back and pull an interview by GRRM stating exactly what he drew from and for whom.

[Voice]

Actually there you are wrong there,they actually are practicing animism...I will go back and pull an interview by GRRM stating exactly what he drew from and for whom.

Sure, he drew inspiration from it, but in real world animism people don't live 130 years in the roots of a tree and watch surveillance footage of ancient doings.

[wolfmaid7]

Sure, he drew inspiration from it, but in real world animism people don't live 130 years in the roots of a tree and watch surveillance footage of ancient doings.

Voice its not an apple for apple situation come on now don't seek to have it be superimposed on our beliefs to the tee.....The theme of man working symbiotically with nature IS the theme,myth,what's drawn on.The worship of the trees etc,its all there.The Weirwood tree is his own fantasy element added.

Voice:: Video is at the bottom and please lisen from 46 min and you will here exactly where GRRM takes and for who it is assigned.

1. Martin, George R.R. (July 28, 2011). Authors@Google presents George R. R. Martin in conversation with Dan Anthony. AtGoogleTalks. Event occurs starts at 46:00 continues on to 52:00. Retrieved 2011-03-21.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTW8M_etko

[Matthew.]

This is exactly what i think is happening noting that like with breaking of the arm it was etended power of the GSs.I keep quoting this text and somehow i think people are missing it by focusing on the Children.But its a symbiotic relationship in that they sing their songs and possibly do a little blood shedding ,ultimately it is the GSs that move the "s**t"

and if what the WB says is true and i believe it,there is a posse of children and definitely a human GS in the LOAW.And the thing is they never got defeated.The GS during the time of the LN probably got exchanged or as i believe they got a human GS for the first time.

Because of how little information we have to work with, we're treading into the territory where each reader is going to (by the author's design) have their own internal vision of what's really going on north of the Wall.

What I'm leaning toward, at least for the moment, is that this "Heart of Winter" is roughly like what we've already seen in the show: not a city full of Others, or even a literal physical heart like the one in Qarth, but simply a ceremonial/magical site. In the case of the show, it was represented as an altar.

I don't believe it's a place where people or beings of magic live, but rather a place where you make a pilgrimage to either be transformed or to work great magics, and I think the "Heart" has only recently become active again, in line with the concept of the old powers awakening.

I think, before WoW is over, Jon (or his body) will make the sojourn to the Heart of Winter, where he will be changed for the worse.

[Armstark]

Ah, sphinxes are one of my favourite topics. :drool:

I dunno, but I think we've seen some signs that the full text (if such a thing exists) of tPtwP prophecy might be a lot more weird and complicated than Mel's straightforward Azor Ahai, Champion of R'hllor prophecy; indeed the two are not necessarily the same thing.

For one, there's the Song of Ice and Fire and the Three Heads, but there's also Aemon's death rambles about the riddle of the Sphinx.

I think you hit the nail on the head. If for example Daenys the Dreamer is the source of tPtwP prophecy one can imagine how difficult it is to decipher a dream where a sphinx (part dragon) talks about the rebirth of dragons (literal dragons) connected somehow to Targaryens (blood of the dragon) and most likely involving blood magic.What in the dream is a metaphor and what not? Add to that the usual vagueness of prophecies and a riddle and you can see how it becomes almost impossible to correctly interpret the prophecy.

I agree that this is the most likely scenario, but I think there is some possibility that the Sphinx is something relevant to tPtwP prophecy; specifically in terms of mixing the blood of kings.

At some point in aDwD the Green Grace makes some comment to Dany about how combining the blood of the harpy and the blood of the dragon would "fulfill the prophecies," and I would argue that this idea has already played out with Rhaego, the burning stallion/Stallion that Mounts the World; the fact that he was ultimately sacrificed to wake dragons from stone makes me suspect that tPtwP prophecy does make some sort of mention of sphinxes.

I don't find it likely at all that Aemon's sphinx refers to Alleras. I think it is pretty obvious from the context that Aemon was talking about the efforts and problems of bringing back the dragons. It is not incoherent rambling but all relates to the same problem context:

He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler,

I agree with your second part though and want to add that there are two stallions used in the rituals that brought about the return of the dragons. The one in the tent and one in the funeral pyre.

And a quick backtrack while I toss out a few quick thoughts on sphinxes...

1. I'd say Stannis counts as a sphinx himself. Why in seven hells would Mel pretend he's AAR? That's the riddle.

2. Sphinxes may not be tied directly to tptwp prophecy, but they are tied directly to Valyria. They are oft mentioned as "Valyrian Sphinxes" in the novels, and then there's this peculiar symmetry:

• 2 sphinxes guard the chambers of the closed council... we know this structure was built/commissioned by Valyrians...
• 2 sphinxes once guarded Tyrion's road to Valyria...
  Tyrion II ADWD. 2 sphinxes, one male, one female. It's been discussed before, I know, but I thought it relevant to tptwp if only due to the fact that both the prophecy and sphinx motif are Valyrian. Body of a dragon...blood of a dragon...etc. More heretical in nature is my next bullet:

• Samwell V AFFC. Doesn't this sound Valyrian? Old Town is old. Really old. Far older than Valyria. Either this is a latter remodel, or a hint that Valyria is far older than we're led to believe.

If sphinxes are an ancient Valyrian motif, which seems entirely apt for this series, why would they make them male and female, if as Aemon points out dragons are neither? If the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler, and he was talking about an actual sphinx, this seems to be more a question regarding the nature of the dragonbond itself, rather than tptwp.

Isn't it odd that the Dothraki left one sphinx standing? Why would they do that? I'd expect them to either take both to Vaes Dothrak or destroy the one they don't take. There had to be some reason.

Although valyrian sphinxes are mentioned many times there are never described in detail which is kind of suspicious. I propose that there is a third part to valyrian sphinxes that has not yet been revealed: something of the stallion.(all other sphinxes we see have at least three parts)

For one it would explain why the Dohraki did not destroy the second sphinx, but I arrived at this conclusion through a different reasoning.

It is a kind of reverse enginering of the tPtwP prophecy through what Aemon said. Aemon does know the prophecy and came to a new interpretation in Bravos. But what new information did he gain that caused this epiphany? Only one: Daenerys has hatched three dragons.

He believes Daenerys to be tPtwP because of the dragons which leads to the first conclusion about the prophecy: it is about bringing back dragons. This of course also explains why so many Targaryens were obscessed with the prophecy after the last dragon died (and notably not before). We also know that those Targaryens believed that it was a matter of combining the right blood to bring about the prophecy. A question of breeding if you will. Many times they failed in their efforts (most notably at Summerhal) because they misinterpretated the prophecy. They didn't correctly solve the riddle.

Which finally leads me back to the sphinx: How could Aemon realize that the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler if his only new information was that Daenerys has hatched dragons? Well, it caused him to see some old information in a new light: Daenerys married Khal Drogo. The right breeding combination that solved the riddle in the end was female dragon and male stallion.

So you see, if the valyrian sphinx has a part of the stallion it is the riddle. Part dragon, part stallion and human and voilà the dragons are back.

[wolfmaid7]

Because of how little information we have to work with, we're treading into the territory where each reader is going to (by the author's design) have their own internal vision of what's really going on north of the Wall.

What I'm leaning toward, at least for the moment, is that this "Heart of Winter" is roughly like what we've already seen in the show: not a city full of Others, or even a literal physical heart like the one in Qarth, but simply a ceremonial/magical site. In the case of the show, it was represented as an altar.

I don't believe it's a place where people or beings of magic live, but rather a place where you make a pilgrimage to either be transformed or to work great magics, and I think the "Heart" has only recently become active again, in line with the concept of the old powers awakening.

I think, before WoW is over, Jon (or his body) will make the sojourn to the Heart of Winter, where he will be changed for the worse.

My idea is a bit different and a mixture of both a state where one goes on a journey of self discovery concluding with a decision on what one should be.But i also think there's a physical location in the LOAW where this originating from,though i don't think we'll find a city fill of "Others" Probably some people/children impaled on ice spires and a human GS making running around in as CHs but no city etc.

I also do agree with Jon but i think his own journey will be one of self discovery.

[hammer117]

Because of how little information we have to work with, we're treading into the territory where each reader is going to (by the author's design) have their own internal vision of what's really going on north of the Wall.

What I'm leaning toward, at least for the moment, is that this "Heart of Winter" is roughly like what we've already seen in the show: not a city full of Others, or even a literal physical heart like the one in Qarth, but simply a ceremonial/magical site. In the case of the show, it was represented as an altar.

I don't believe it's a place where people or beings of magic live, but rather a place where you make a pilgrimage to either be transformed or to work great magics, and I think the "Heart" has only recently become active again, in line with the concept of the old powers awakening.

I think, before WoW is over, Jon (or his body) will make the sojourn to the Heart of Winter, where he will be changed for the worse.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but it almost seems as though the Heart of Winter is near Asshai

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Bran says that when he looks to Asshai, he sees the sunrise and looks beneath it to see dragons. When he then looks as far north as possible, he sees a curtain of light (the sunrise?), and beyond this curtain the heart of winter where something scares him. At the very least, he sees dragons stirring beneath the light at one end, and something else when he looks past the other light.

Of course the big problem is then, why isn't Bran scared of the dragons at Asshai, but is scared of whatever he sees in the heart of winter, if they were actually the same thing?