What was the final straw that made Roose Bolton jump ship?

[LordQorgyle]

Baelish and Lancel weren't Lord until the war was finished so that doesn't count

[tseka]

Yes, but many of the Riverlords swore fealty to him as King in the North, and considering his ties to the Riverlands it does not seem unlikely that they would be part of his kingdom if he had been successful. But even if Robb refused to incorporate them into his kingdom and did not need a Warden of the North, there was still plenty to gain for Roose.

I think even his position before he betrayed Robb was A LOT more comfortable than his current situation- riddled with uncertainty and instability.

He has as much control over the North as Russia has over Ukraine right now.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Good points but Roose is no different from anybody else who thinks their boss is an idiot. Most of us think we could do better than the knuckleheads in charge who should only just do what WE say to make things run smooth. But he gets what he wants and finds out almost immediately that he's no smarter than Robb. In fact he probably realizes now that he's likely going to get himself killed. People like to make excuses for the guy, If this hadn't happened or that hadn't happened he'd be fine. That could be said of anyone. The important point is they did happen and he had no answer for it. Most people would be up the creek, not just Roose.

All I'm saying is even if you're right and Roose did do all this because Robb failed to heed his advice. Roose takes over, does things his own way, fails spectacularly, and now realizes he's not nearly as smart as he thought he was. Even when you make all the right moves sometimes you fail and look like an arrogant pick who thought he knew everything, exactly how Roose looks now. And in the end doing all this for the power, getting it, and having it blow up in your face is just plain humiliating.

It's not really the same situation at all. The situation Roose found himself in is far different than what Robb found himself in, so just because both Robb and Roose found themselves struggling with ruling doesn't mean they were equivalents and that Roose was categorically wrong in the way he questioned Robb's rule. The problems that brought Robb down were easily preventable for the most part. I believe a lot of Roose's risks were risks he took into account going into the situation in that he knew he'd have to bide his time as he'd be surrounded by people that likely weren't fans in the North.

Roose's situation got worse largely because of factors far outside of Roose's control such as Stannis surprising everybody by showing up at the wall and Tyrion killing the Bolton's most powerful ally, both acts that came somewhat as a surprise to the readers and probably to those in the story as well. Robb went out of his way to marry Jeyne and beheaded Karstark right there and then despite other options. Those are just boneheaded moves as far as Roose and a lot of people are concerned.

Roose certainly has made his share of mistakes and took some risks that bit him in the ass, but no one thing Roose did personally was as clearcut and disastrous as those 2 personal decisions Robb made.

[Tharvot]

I don't think Roose was ever "all in" for Robb. He's an opportunistic man who left with Robb because he had to and once the tides turned or looked bad for Robb he was quick to jump on Tywin's offer. I'm assuming Tywin sent a message his way before he left to clear out Stannis at the Blackwater.

[Wavey Sauce]

This is from the show.. Robb and Roose were apart during most of the war.

They were but he still had tons of rules and did things that Roose was really against.

Roose was always super hard core though lol, during Roberts Rebellion he wanted to execute Barristan Selmy when King Bob took him in and has his own maester heal Barristan. Roose couldnt wrap his head around it

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

It's not really the same situation at all. The situation Roose found himself in is far different than what Robb found himself in, so just because both Robb and Roose found themselves struggling with ruling doesn't mean they were equivalents and that Roose was categorically wrong in the way he questioned Robb's rule. The problems that brought Robb down were easily preventable for the most part. I believe a lot of Roose's risks were risks he took into account going into the situation in that he knew he'd have to bide his time as he'd be surrounded by people that likely weren't fans in the North.

Roose's situation got worse largely because of factors far outside of Roose's control such as Stannis surprising everybody by showing up at the wall and Tyrion killing the Bolton's most powerful ally, both acts that came somewhat as a surprise to the readers and probably to those in the story as well. Robb went out of his way to marry Jeyne and beheaded Karstark right there and then despite other options. Those are just boneheaded moves as far as Roose and a lot of people are concerned.

Roose certainly has made his share of mistakes and took some risks that bit him in the ass, but no one thing Roose did personally was as clearcut and disastrous as those 2 personal decisions Robb made.

See it annoys me how all of Robb's problems are because he was stupid and Roose was just dealt a bad hand.Robb made very human mistakes. Sure they were dumb but all mistakes are in hindsight. Roose was ill equipped to deal with his situation. The details of how he ended up in that situation isn't the point. The point is he made his play, but his eyes were bigger than his appetite. He doesn't have the respect or the skill to rule the North and he didn't know that until he schemed his way into the position. At least Robb had the excuse of youth and naivete. Roose just isn't as good as he thought he was. Most of us would fail in his shoes, most of us wouldn't be arrogant enough to think we could pull this off. He had to know that if one thing went wrong he'd be screwed, yet he didn't plan on it?

[Wavey Sauce]

See it annoys me how all of Robb's problems are because he was stupid and Roose was just dealt a bad hand.Robb made very human mistakes. Sure they were dumb but all mistakes are in hindsight. Roose was ill equipped to deal with his situation. The details of how he ended up in that situation isn't the point. The point is he made his play, but his eyes were bigger than his appetite. He doesn't have the respect or the skill to rule the North and he didn't know that until he schemed his way into the position. At least Robb had the excuse of youth and naivete. Roose just isn't as good as he thought he was. Most of us would fail in his shoes, most of us wouldn't be arrogant enough to think we could pull this off. He had to know that if one thing went wrong he'd be screwed, yet he didn't plan on it?

Young or not he ignored everyone trying to council him. He didnt have to be a genius to really think that the Freys were going to let that go and not be happy.

He also should have just kept Karstark as a hostage and agreed to let him live if his kin would still be loyal to the cause and finish the war. But no all he did was piss off the people that he needed.

He also had just way too much of the heavy honor thing going on. Wars are messy and not pretty. Roose didnt think he was cut out for it when he refused to torture any prisoners to get information. Roose even said "The high road is very pretty your grace but you will have a hard time marching your army down it".... Robb "MY FATHER OUTLAWED FLAYING IN THE NORTH, WE WILL NOT HARM ANY PRISONER, I WILL NOT GIVE THE LANNISTERS ANY EXCUSE TO TORTURE OUR SOLDIERS!!!!"

like really Robb? How are the Lannisters going to know how you are dealing with their prisoners, and do you really think those scumbags wont torture their prisoners? While Robb was saying that they had tons of guys like the tickler and other people torturing anyone, trying to get information about the brotherhood without banners, or even just torture executing people for no reason just to lower prisoner numbers and make statements. I mean the Lannisters with what he knew, pushed his kid brother out the window, chopped off his fathers head, I mean could he really convince himself to believe they would be playing with the same integrity that he was raised with?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Young or not he ignored everyone trying to council him. He didnt have to be a genius to really think that the Freys were going to let that go and not be happy.

He also should have just kept Karstark as a hostage and agreed to let him live if his kin would still be loyal to the cause and finish the war. But no all he did was piss off the people that he needed.

He also had just way too much of the heavy honor thing going on. Wars are messy and not pretty. Roose didnt think he was cut out for it when he refused to torture any prisoners to get information. Roose even said "The high road is very pretty your grace but you will have a hard time marching your army down it".... Robb "MY FATHER OUTLAWED FLAYING IN THE NORTH, WE WILL NOT HARM ANY PRISONER, I WILL NOT GIVE THE LANNISTERS ANY EXCUSE TO TORTURE OUR SOLDIERS!!!!"

like really Robb? How are the Lannisters going to know how you are dealing with their prisoners, and do you really think those scumbags wont torture their prisoners? While Robb was saying that they had tons of guys like the tickler and other people torturing anyone, trying to get information about the brotherhood without banners, or even just torture executing people for no reason just to lower prisoner numbers and make statements. I mean the Lannisters with what he knew, pushed his kid brother out the window, chopped off his fathers head, I mean could he really convince himself to believe they would be playing with the same integrity that he was raised with?

So he should have compromised his values and everything he's ever known to win. That would make him Tywin Lannister.

[Nihlus]

Young or not he ignored everyone trying to council him.

He listened to his mother on military matters... even though she has no martial education. While ignoring her in the area where she actually did have some experience (politics).

[WSmith84]

Young or not he ignored everyone trying to council him. He didnt have to be a genius to really think that the Freys were going to let that go and not be happy.

He also should have just kept Karstark as a hostage and agreed to let him live if his kin would still be loyal to the cause and finish the war. But no all he did was piss off the people that he needed.

He also had just way too much of the heavy honor thing going on. Wars are messy and not pretty. Roose didnt think he was cut out for it when he refused to torture any prisoners to get information. Roose even said "The high road is very pretty your grace but you will have a hard time marching your army down it".... Robb "MY FATHER OUTLAWED FLAYING IN THE NORTH, WE WILL NOT HARM ANY PRISONER, I WILL NOT GIVE THE LANNISTERS ANY EXCUSE TO TORTURE OUR SOLDIERS!!!!"

like really Robb? How are the Lannisters going to know how you are dealing with their prisoners, and do you really think those scumbags wont torture their prisoners? While Robb was saying that they had tons of guys like the tickler and other people torturing anyone, trying to get information about the brotherhood without banners, or even just torture executing people for no reason just to lower prisoner numbers and make statements. I mean the Lannisters with what he knew, pushed his kid brother out the window, chopped off his fathers head, I mean could he really convince himself to believe they would be playing with the same integrity that he was raised with?

A lot of this stuff is show only. Flaying, for example, was outlawed long before Ned Stark was even a glint in his father's eye.

[Wavey Sauce]

He listened to his mother on military matters... even though she has no martial education. While ignoring her in the area where she actually did have some experience (politics).

Military wise when it came to battles he was a prodigy and a genius. He never lost a battle. And the plan he did to send a decoy to suck Tywin in while he went and freed up River Run and captured Jaime was a thing of beauty. He also would have had the mountains head on a spike if Edmure didnt mess it all up by not following and waiting for the proper orders. When it came to war and military battles he was second to none. It was just his honor that hurt him in the politic field that was his demise

[Wavey Sauce]

A lot of this stuff is show only. Flaying, for example, was outlawed long before Ned Stark was even a glint in his father's eye.

So was the tradition of the "first night" but guys like Bolton still practiced it in secret anyway

[Wavey Sauce]

So he should have compromised his values and everything he's ever known to win. That would make him Tywin Lannister.

Yes he should have. Cause Robb ended up dead and lost the war.

Tywin was able to live and keep going.

Anytime there is a situation that big and in his position there will be compromises. Comes down to if you want to have 100% honor to the bone and end up dead. Or bend a few of the things you cherish and believe in, and having the stomach to accept it but end up living....

Tywin Lannister lived on and was able to keep his house in tact and continue on. Robb lost his whole cause and got his mother and closest friends killed. I think if he could have went back in time he wouldnt have made those mistakes.

Its either hold your honor and die, or bend some things and live

[WSmith84]

So was the tradition of the "first night" but guys like Bolton still practiced it in secret anyway

Yes but you keep using show-only stuff to argue that Robb didn't listen to Roose, when in fact they were apart for most of the war. And when they were together, Robb does listen. When Roose tells him that he has Theon prisoner, Robb demands that he be killed. Roose counsels that Robb first demand something in return from Theon's uncles, as an ambitious uncle who wants to take the throne needs to rid himself of the previous King's son. Robb agrees. Can you show me an in-book example of Robb ignoring Roose's counsel?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Yes he should have. Cause Robb ended up dead and lost the war.

Tywin was able to live and keep going.

Anytime there is a situation that big and in his position there will be compromises. Comes down to if you want to have 100% honor to the bone and end up dead. Or bend a few of the things you cherish and believe in, and having the stomach to accept it but end up living....

Tywin Lannister lived on and was able to keep his house in tact and continue on. Robb lost his whole cause and got his mother and closest friends killed. I think if he could have went back in time he wouldnt have made those mistakes.

Its either hold your honor and die, or bend some things and live

Tywin outlived Robb by what, a few weeks? A few months? Sure he won but he had to lie about it. Which tells you how proud he was of the victory. At the end of the day they're both dead but Robb is remembered well and Tywin is quickly forgotten. His Lannister dynasty dies with his smelly corpse.

[Giles the Wizard]

The Boltons and the Starks, while allied, weren't exactly friendly towards each other. I think Roose jumped ship when he saw that everything was going wrong for the North, through a combination of bad luck and Robb not being able to handle kingship. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who cares about loyalty to his liege lord, he's the kind of man who sees an opportunity and takes it. He is a cautious man, and after things started to go downhill he decided that joining the Lannisters would be a safer bet.

[Wavey Sauce]

Yes but you keep using show-only stuff to argue that Robb didn't listen to Roose, when in fact they were apart for most of the war. And when they were together, Robb does listen. When Roose tells him that he has Theon prisoner, Robb demands that he be killed. Roose counsels that Robb first demand something in return from Theon's uncles, as an ambitious uncle who wants to take the throne needs to rid himself of the previous King's son. Robb agrees. Can you show me an in-book example of Robb ignoring Roose's counsel?

Ok in the books he trusted Roose as one of his top 3 commanders.

When the fork battles came, Roose sent many to their deaths, and kept all his army in reserve and away from the fighting. While you are right in the sense that some of those examples in the show........book wise Roose was very against killing Karstark. Hold him captive if anything but to all those lords who lost loved ones to Lannisters, and to punish a high lord for the act he did Roose hated. That is actually why one of the reasons the Karstarks have been loyal to Roose, he was still going to help them and take care of them once Robb was gone.

But once he went through and married Jeyne, Roose just couldnt deal with how stupid he was being, he had little faith that a guy like that would end up taking their cause to victory. Once Robb screwed the Freys over, and when Roose had Jaime as a captive, Roose made the move that would lose him no soldiers, and become warden of the north. I think he more or less felt that Robb would lead them to their deaths and didnt trust him as a leader when it came to the politic side of things

[Wavey Sauce]

Tywin outlived Robb by what, a few weeks? A few months? Sure he won but he had to lie about it. Which tells you how proud he was of the victory. At the end of the day they're both dead but Robb is remembered well and Tywin is quickly forgotten. His Lannister dynasty dies with his smelly corpse.

Tywin was killed on the privy by an escaped prisoner.

Robb was killed during the war while fighting for his cause. And got his mother killed, and most of his close lords and friends killed. Tywin was a death you cant predict. The way Robb did things got everyone killed and the cause lost. Tywin still won the war for his family and still had Tommen in power, Cersei still around etc.

Him dying on the privy doesnt change that.

As I said it comes down to in situations like this it comes down to having all this honor and dying, or stomaching a few rule breaks but end up alive, not dead. If Robb could go back in time he would have changed all of that, just like Ned his father, honor got him killed, along with his mom, and closest friends and kin

Also Tywin was able to end the war and Freys are the ones who look terrible now in the worst light. By not honoring guest right, they are looked at as total scum of the scum by everyone everywhere. Tywin is more then good with having them look like the dirt kings, and Walder Frey is a fool for thinking that Tywin was really going to have his back through it. He was used like a hooker

[Wavey Sauce]

Yes but you keep using show-only stuff to argue that Robb didn't listen to Roose, when in fact they were apart for most of the war. And when they were together, Robb does listen. When Roose tells him that he has Theon prisoner, Robb demands that he be killed. Roose counsels that Robb first demand something in return from Theon's uncles, as an ambitious uncle who wants to take the throne needs to rid himself of the previous King's son. Robb agrees. Can you show me an in-book example of Robb ignoring Roose's counsel?

zugh its not letting me multi quote

I never said he ignored everything Roose said, but he did go against him and not listen on a few important things. I am not saying he never once took his advice. But he did enough to convince Roose that he was going to lead them into their deaths and lose the war

[Victor227]

Roose was on Team Bolton the moment the war began. It's mentioned by GRRM that he was nothing but opportunistic from start to finish. At the Green Fork he ensured that his fellow northern bannermen took the brunt of the casualties compared to his Dreadfort men. From there, he hung back justifiably, as he didn't have any orders or moves he could make until Edmure's fords gambit, while in the meantime Ramsay and his men back in the North exploited the chaos of the Hornwood heir's death at the Whispering Woods. Ramsay would never have had the power and authority back home to take Hornwood without specific instructions to exploit weakness, as he was certainly not lord of the Dreadfort. He especially wouldn't have the authority to stab Rodrick Cassel in the back and burn Winterfell.

The entire time the War of the Five Kings was going on, Roose was waging a war for increased power in the North via Ramsay and the soldiers he left behind. He maintained deniability the entire time, as Ramsay was expendable, and could have the whole thing pinned on him, but Roose himself points out that Ramsay's men are -his- men.

Anyway, it's not until the Blackwater that Roose changed sides. With Robb losing the Freys and Karstarks, and the Lannisters picking up the Tyrells and forming an overwhelming force, it was time to make a bigger move and walk away with his power not just intact, but enhanced greatly. Still, he acts in a similar manner as before, right up to the Red Wedding. He coaxes Glover and Talheart into attacking Duskendale, only to be beaten back by Tarly and swept by Gregor, and he has Wylis Manderly (a very important heir, as his death would leave Wylla Manderly heir to White Harbor, and while she's a firebrand, she's still a young girl), hold the rear and get mopped up as he moves north to the Twins.

He spent the entire war undermining his potential rivals and making small, deniable, gambles. Then finished it with a big betrayal. The best part was, he could have put a stop to it any time without committing himself until the very second the crossbow bolts started flying at the Twins, as demonstrated when he held Jaime, and his maiming put the Bolton-Lannister alliance in jeopardy. If he thought Jaime was going to put the blame, and Tywin's wrath, on Roose, he could have killed him, gone north, stopped the Red Wedding before it happened, played the loyal bannerman and hid north of Moat Cailin under King Robb.