What was the final straw that made Roose Bolton jump ship?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Eh.

Robb ignored Rooses advice every single time. Roose thought he was a little to soft from the start when he wouldnt torture prisoners. But he went against Rooses input on everything.

I think Roose even brought that up, and called him ignorant and said something like "He ignored my advice at every turn, if he had been just a tad less arrogant"

Typical response of someone who does something horrible. We could have avoided all this if THEY had just.....

It's called passing the buck.

[Wavey Sauce]

Typical response of someone who does something horrible. We could have avoided all this if THEY had just.....

It's called passing the buck.

Horrible or not. Roose was still in the top circle of his commanders, and he went his advice the whole war. Roose looked at him as a kid who is ignorant and wont listen, and will end up losing the war due to his stupidity, Roose thought to himself that his head was going to end up on a spike with all the mistakes he is making.

Marrying Jeyne was something that cant even be argued though, that was beyond the worst thing he could have done. I mean come on if you love her, you know you need the Freys so just have a public marriage with her and once you win the war or the cause is over then lay it out to him and do whatever. But dont pull that when you NEED them badly

[Fool of a Took]

He fought in Roberts Rebellion almost right next to Ned though.

He seemed to be really down for the north cause but hated how Robb would ignore his advice every single time. But when Robb pissed off the Freys and with Roose having Jaime as a captive I think he saw the chance to get out of the war, become warden of the north, and not risk any losses. I just dont know how into the cause he was before that point (like around Jaimes capture, with Vargo Hoat etc, Vargo knew that Roose was maybe going to hear Tywins offer and switch sides, that is why he chopped off Jaimes hand, because the Brave Companions switched sides on Tywin as is, so he didnt want Roose teaming with him).

Him not sending his own forces into battles etc, tells me he either didnt trust Robb and their cause that they could win the war and wanted to play it safe, or if he was looking for a better end result for himself only from the start of the war.

If he stuck with Robb from day 1 and they win the war, what does Roose get out of it? Robb would be King/Warden of the North. What would Roose get that he doesnt already have, he would just lose soldiers and put himself in danger. Thats the way he looks at things, he only even went because the banners were called and he had no choice, but soon as he thought he could better his position I dont think he cared who got screwed over. Even his only remaining son was expendable to him (bastard or not)

I have to agree with a point made in an early post that he betrayed the Starks because he had the opportunity too, rather than because of a "failure" or "insult" from the Starks.

Regarding your response about his loyalty to the Starks during Robert's Rebellion, I know you didn't specifically use the word "Loyalty", but the way I see things is that the Boltons, particularly Roose, is not loyal to the Starks the way other houses of the North are. Take the Umbers, they would follow the Starks no matter what, they are loyal to the Starks because they are LOYAL. The Boltons are loyal to the Starks because it's in their best interest. It was in their best interest to side with the rest of the North during the Rebellion, because if the Rebellion succeeded they would be more than SOL if they turned their backs on the Starks and Robert. During the War of the Five Kings, it was in their best interest to betray Robb and the North (at least that was their thinking, because I think they are clearly going to get what's coming to them). Where other houses look out for their realm and Lords, the Boltons are clearly just out for themselves, much like their co-conspirator's the Freys.

[sertravisredbeard]

Although I think Roose's loyalty was suspect from the start, I think his own personal turning point was hearing about Theon taking Winterfell. He tells Theon that's when Robb lost the war.

From the beginning he obviously set out to get other northmen killed while preserving his own troops. I don't know if you call that pragmatism or loyalty to your own men, but it was shady to begin with. The rest of Robb's setbacks were just icing on the cake. I'm sure he wasn't too thrilled about following a 15-year old to battle.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Horrible or not. Roose was still in the top circle of his commanders, and he went his advice the whole war. Roose looked at him as a kid who is ignorant and wont listen, and will end up losing the war due to his stupidity, Roose thought to himself that his head was going to end up on a spike with all the mistakes he is making.

Marrying Jeyne was something that cant even be argued though, that was beyond the worst thing he could have done. I mean come on if you love her, you know you need the Freys so just have a public marriage with her and once you win the war or the cause is over then lay it out to him and do whatever. But dont pull that when you NEED them badly

Good points but Roose is no different from anybody else who thinks their boss is an idiot. Most of us think we could do better than the knuckleheads in charge who should only just do what WE say to make things run smooth. But he gets what he wants and finds out almost immediately that he's no smarter than Robb. In fact he probably realizes now that he's likely going to get himself killed. People like to make excuses for the guy, If this hadn't happened or that hadn't happened he'd be fine. That could be said of anyone. The important point is they did happen and he had no answer for it. Most people would be up the creek, not just Roose.

All I'm saying is even if you're right and Roose did do all this because Robb failed to heed his advice. Roose takes over, does things his own way, fails spectacularly, and now realizes he's not nearly as smart as he thought he was. Even when you make all the right moves sometimes you fail and look like an arrogant pick who thought he knew everything, exactly how Roose looks now. And in the end doing all this for the power, getting it, and having it blow up in your face is just plain humiliating.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Well, Roose Bolton got a lesser army to win time with a suicidal attack on Tywin Lannister. He married a Frey girl, there were a lot of Freys in his army, he left more soldiers at home, the Northerners have to pass the Twins in order to go home to clash the Ironborn and Roose knew it.

The Tyrells allied with the Lannisters, so the 2 biggest army of Westeros united. Robb Stark lost the Karstarks. Catelyn let Jaime run away. Winter was coming.

Knowing that the Starks and Boltons are ancient enemies, I'd do the same if I were Roose. With the Red Wedding he became the Warden of the North, Bolton is the Great House of the North, he found a fairly strong "ally" in the Riverlands, took over Winterfell, and stopped the war.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

When Ramsay attacked Winterfell/"Reek" participated in the murder of "Bran" and "Rickon". Without the say-so of Roose by the way, since there wasn't any chance to communicate. Afterwards the Starks had to go or House Bolton would end.

His plan was to send Greatjon with the infantry to "smash Lord Tywin". He only ever changed commanders, not battle plans (unless I missed something). So it's likely that Roose was just acting under orders. GRRM himself said that Roose wasn't a traitor at this point, he was just hedging his bets. If, by some miracle, this works, he's the hero of the North. If it doesn't, he can pull back with relatively few casualties, and all of his own men intact. And hey, his rivals just suffered tons of losses, so more influence for him.

Yes, that Robb was uncomfortable with the "smash Tywin" approach of the Greatjon and specifically switched to Roose for a more cautious feint, that didn't exactly required an all-out battle.

Which Roose risked nevertheless, playing both sides at once. Either hero of the North, or getting rid of rivals.

Eh.

Robb ignored Rooses advice every single time. Roose thought he was a little to soft from the start when he wouldnt torture prisoners. But he went against Rooses input on everything.

I think Roose even brought that up, and called him ignorant and said something like "He ignored my advice at every turn, if he had been just a tad less arrogant"

You are confused by the show. Robb hadn't seen Roose for a month when he took the very first prisoner. Nor had Roose any input after the Twins, communication being hardly possible.

[John Doe]

Seems like the work of Mirri Maz Duur to me.

Roose was still learning when he raped Ramsays mother.

[WSmith84]

Roose claims, if I remember correctly, that it was when Theon took Winterfell that he knew that the Northern cause was lost. Mind you, he is saying this to Theon, so he could be lying, though I don't really see a point (unless he is just trying to hurt Theon).

[tseka]

There was obviously many things Robb did to piss Roose off. Where Roose started to feel that he was going to lose them the war where they all end up dead. I know there was a few things that must have got Rooses clock turning. But I cant remember if there was anything in specific where it laid it flat out as the straw that broke the camels back.

Was it when he chose to marry Jeyne and not Ros Frey? I think that before that for sure Roose was probably pissed and maybe waiting for a chance to jump ship and benefit himself. Just cant remember if he started to plot before that out of spite. Cause I do think at the very start he was loyal to the cause and then switched over time.

But I mean in the past he fought in roberts Rebellion and was loyal. But in Robb Starks war even before Robb started to mess up big, Roose seemed to be not taking any risks with his soldiers, he seemed to be only protecting his own cause and worrying about himself, like the Fork battles etc. He was always keeping his personal force in reserve, thats why when the war was over and where he is at now he took very minimum casualties. So maybe from the start he wasnt that loyal? Unless I am mistaken

It was a combination of factors but I'm not sure what the final straw was because I'm no that familiar with the exact order of events.

I'm sure that this was the most significant factor though- the Battle of Blackwater and the Lannister/Tyrell alliance was out of Robb's control but marrying some foreign nurse and breaking his word to Walder Frey was an extremely irresponsible course of action in a fatal war where hundreds of thousands were at risk of death.

[John Doe]

I guess the Blackwater and the loss of Winterfell made him finally jump ship, the Blackwater being more important.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Roose claims, if I remember correctly, that it was when Theon took Winterfell that he knew that the Northern cause was lost. Mind you, he is saying this to Theon, so he could be lying, though I don't really see a point (unless he is just trying to hurt Theon).

He's shading the truth. Because knowin that the Northern cause was lost wasn't his reason for switching sides. Ramsay attacking the Starks was. And that happened without Roose's input.

I guess the Blackwater and the loss of Winterfell made him finally jump ship, the Blackwater being more important.

The Blackwater happened a full month after Ramsay openly rebelled against House Stark, flying the Bolton banner while murdering "Bran", "Rickon" and Ser Rodrik's host.

Please tell me, how do you imagine would Robb's reaction look? He had to go for House Bolton to survive, regardless of the Blackwater.

[LordQorgyle]

Roose did what he thought best for him and his men..

The truth is that Robb could be a good battle commander but he was a shitty king/Lord and kept accumulating mistake after mistake

[John Doe]

He's shading the truth. Because knowin that the Northern cause was lost wasn't his reason for switching sides. Ramsay attacking the Starks was. And that happened without Roose's input.

The Blackwater happened a full month after Ramsay openly rebelled against House Stark, flying the Bolton banner while murdering "Bran", "Rickon" and Ser Rodrik's host.

Please tell me, how do you imagine would Robb's reaction look? He had to go for House Bolton to survive, regardless of the Blackwater.

Ah, I didn't know the exact timeline. Though grrm isn't very exact with it himself, you might be right.

[Nihlus]

When Ramsay attacked Winterfell/"Reek" participated in the murder of "Bran" and "Rickon". Without the say-so of Roose by the way, since there wasn't any chance to communicate. Afterwards the Starks had to go or House Bolton would end.

Yes, that Robb was uncomfortable with the "smash Tywin" approach of the Greatjon and specifically switched to Roose for a more cautious feint, that didn't exactly required an all-out battle.

Which Roose risked nevertheless, playing both sides at once. Either hero of the North, or getting rid of rivals.

If that's true, then why leave Ramsay in charge of anything ever again? Also, I don't think Winterfell really mattered. If Ramsay hadn't done it, Roose still would have stabbed Robb.

He was never uncomfortable with the "smash Tywin" approach. He was only unsure about his choice of commanders. His commander is the only thing he changed. There's no indication that he changed his original plan, which required his infantry to engage Tywin.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Roose was never truly loyal. He never committed himself or his forces until he had the maximum gain. He probably jumped ship with the Freys when Robb married Jeyne.

[RumHam]

As for Bolton, if you reread all his sections carefully, I think you will see a picture of a man keeping all his options open as long as he could... sniffing the wind, covering his tracks, ready to jump either way... even as late as his supper with Jaime at Harrenhal...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If that's true, then why leave Ramsay in charge of anything ever again? Also, I don't think Winterfell really mattered. If Ramsay hadn't done it, Roose still would have stabbed Robb.

He was never uncomfortable with the "smash Tywin" approach. He was only unsure about his choice of commanders. His commander is the only thing he changed. There's no indication that he changed his original plan, which required his infantry to engage Tywin.

He doesn't. In between Roose meeting up with Ramsay and the current state, Ramsay can decide how to dress and that's it.

Winterfell mattered because Roose had to stab Robb even if Stannis had won the Blackwater and swore fealthy to the King in the North.

Oh, he was very much uncomfortable. His orders were not to attack Tywin no matter what, but to deceive him and conserve numbers (in that order). He appointed Roose to achieve the second goal as well.

[Nihlus]

He doesn't. In between Roose meeting up with Ramsay and the current state, Ramsay can decide how to dress and that's it.

Winterfell mattered because Roose had to stab Robb even if Stannis had won the Blackwater and swore fealthy to the King in the North.

Oh, he was very much uncomfortable. His orders were not to attack Tywin no matter what, but to deceive him and conserve numbers (in that order). He appointed Roose to achieve the second goal as well.

Ramsay gets command of soldiers at Moat Cailin and Crofter's Village. And he's supposed to be the new Lord of Winterfell.

What do you think he would have done if Stannis won?

When did he say NOT to engage Tywin? I only remember him saying the opposite.

[SeanF]

He doesn't. In between Roose meeting up with Ramsay and the current state, Ramsay can decide how to dress and that's it.

Winterfell mattered because Roose had to stab Robb even if Stannis had won the Blackwater and swore fealthy to the King in the North.

Oh, he was very much uncomfortable. His orders were not to attack Tywin no matter what, but to deceive him and conserve numbers (in that order). He appointed Roose to achieve the second goal as well.

I've never established whether Ramsay sacked Winterfell on his own initiative, or with his father's blessing.

I'm sure that if Robb had looked like he was winning the war, Roose wouldn't have hesitated to throw Ramsay under the bus. I think the Blackwater was the turning point for Roose.