Wolf dreams, Lady, and Sansa's return to Winterfall

[Minuteman]

The significance of Lady being dead is not a new topic but I wanted to post an observation I have not seen mentioned before. We know from Six Skins prologue that a wolf will bond only with a single warg and that bond is for life. Presumably Lady shared this bond with Sansa prior to her death much as all the other dire wolves and Starks seem to have from first introduction. So Lady is killed and Ned Stark orders that her bones be returned to Winterfell for internment at the lichyard reserved for the faithful servants to House Stark. Presumably this was accomplished.

There are two wolf dreams that seem to suggest that Lady is dead only in body.

Bran POV: Summer wolf dream from aSoS

Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back … all but for the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.

These woods belonged to them, the snowy slopes and stony hills, the great green pines and the golden leaf oaks, the rushing streams and blue lakes fringed with fingers of white frost. But his sister had left the wilds, to walk in the halls of man-rock where other hunters ruled, and once within those halls it was hard to find the path back out. The wolf prince remembered.

This cannot refer to Nymeria as she is hunting as a pack leader in the wilds around Gods Eye. It is also in the present tense suggesting that Summer still feels Lady and the environment seems to match what has been described in the crypts.

Jon POV: Ghost wolf dream from aDwD

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling.

The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

Notice the diction. It is not four, one of whom cannot be sensed, but rather 4+1. Also, Ghost senses his three living siblings so the 4+1 is explicit, not inferred. At this point both Lady and Grey Wind (and Robb) are dead. Grey Wind is not at Winterfell and with Robb dead I think it safe to assume that he is the -1. So by elimination the +1 can only be Lady and her presence first sensed by Summer is confirmed by Ghost.

So what I'm thinking is that since we know that warging as an ability is affected by distance that once Sansa returns to Winterfell she will start having wolf dreams with Lady. Perhaps then we may learn what happened to Lyanna direct from the source herself with Lady/Sansa as conduit. And/or what is in the crypts. Regardless, the notion that the other dire wolves feel Lady as being dead in body only does open up a dimension that I haven't seen discussed in the forums before.

[Mithras]

Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back … all but for the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.

These woods belonged to them, the snowy slopes and stony hills, the great green pines and the golden leaf oaks, the rushing streams and blue lakes fringed with fingers of white frost. But his sister had left the wilds, to walk in the halls of man-rock where other hunters ruled, and once within those halls it was hard to find the path back out. The wolf prince remembered.

"Halls of man-rock" are the crypts of Winterfell. After Lady's bones were buried to the lichyard, it appears that her ghost was bound to the crpyts.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

"Halls of man-rock" are the crypts of Winterfell. After Lady's bones were buried to the lichyard, it appears that her ghost was bound to the crpyts.

I never considered that interpretation!

But I do personally believe it's Sansa that Ghost is referring to.

[aryagonnakill#2]

It is 4, its 3+1. He knows 4 are alive, but that he cannot sense 1 of them. He cannot sense Bran like Jon could not sense Ghost on opposite sides of the wall.

[Minuteman]

But I do personally believe it's Sansa that Ghost is referring to.

With Lady being dead I don't see how Ghost could feel Sansa at all. In fact none of the wolves has ever felt anything other than their sibling wolves and none of the Starks wolves other than their own. Bran comes closest thinking that he felt Ghost when Ghost was on the far side of the Wall but he was mistaken. From Ghost's wolf dream we know that Bran felt Ghost through a weirwood Ghost was sniffing not through Ghost directly. Also, remember from Six Skins that a wolf bond is a marriage for life so Sansa and Ghost can never warg as Ghost and Jon belong to each other.

It is 4, its 3+1. He knows 4 are alive, but that he cannot sense 1 of them. He cannot sense Bran like Jon could not sense Ghost on opposite sides of the wall.

Don't think so. Ghost and Summer were on opposite sides of the Wall during the dream I referenced. "On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer." So Ghost is sensing Summer (and the fact that it is colder there) as well as Nymeria and Shaggydog. Who then is the +1 that he cannot sense? Also, as mentioned to SacredOrderOfGreenMen Bran felt Ghost through a dream connection to a Weirwood when ghost was North of the Wall and Bran was in the crypts of Winterfell. So the Wall is not the barrier many believe it to be.

[cocoalover1956]

"Ser Sweetrobin," Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

Oh yeah, Lady's still there in spirit. Which brings up an interesting thoughts:

Lady came back, but Grey Wind did not come. Lady was buried in Winterfell, while Grey Wind's remains were desecrated and presumably left to rot on some patch of ground near Twins (or just tossed into the river).

Bran felt all cold inside. "She lost her wolf," he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father's guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady's bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

I wonder what's special about this particular spot. Maybe its not special on its own, but because of the accumulation of spirits there. Or because of its proximity to the crypts. Which begs the question: what makes the crypts so special? Is there magic associated with death and ghosts down there?

The Kings of Winter appear to be aware, watching, waiting.

He led the way between the pillars and Robert followed wordlessly, shivering in the subterranean chill. It was always cold down here. Their footsteps rang off the stones and echoed in the vault overhead as they walked among the dead of House Stark. The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass. Their likenesses were carved into the stones that sealed the tombs. In long rows they sat, blind eyes staring out into eternal darkness, while great stone direwolves curled round their feet. The shifting shadows made the stone figures seem to stir as the living passed by.

[...]

"I bedded a fishmaid once who told me the lowborn have a choicer way to put it. The king eats, they say, and the Hand takes the shit." He threw back his head and roared his laughter. The echoes rang through the darkness, and all around them the dead of Winterfell seemed to watch with cold and disapproving eyes.

[...]

For a moment Eddard Stark was filled with a terrible sense of foreboding. This was his place, here in the north. He looked at the stone figures all around them, breathed deep in the chill silence of the crypt. He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And winter was coming.

This could be no more than poetic language, but in the last chapter, Catelyn said she felt as though the heart tree was watching her, had watch everything that happened around Winterfell for millenia. From Bran's chapters, we know this to be 100% true. So the Kings of Winter and most likely still around, and Lady is most likely still around. Now it just a wonder of how this factors in the future books.

*slides into crackpot territory*

This almost certainly has something to do with the Others, whose whole shtick is bringing back the dead. I'm just not what exactly that is. Perhaps the Others only bring back the body, while the Stark magic brings back the soul? Maybe a way to defeat the Others involves Stark magic, which can only be utilized because of something in the crypts. Or maybe whatever it is down there is being protected by the Stark magic and the Kings of Winter are buried the way they are because they must fulfill some kind of duty in death.

[Mithras]

I never considered that interpretation!

But I do personally believe it's Sansa that Ghost is referring to.

Blackwoods take care to bury their bones under their great weirwood tree. That might be for access to the memories of their deceased. The roots of the Stark heart tree descend into the crypts. Bones remember.

[Tharvot]

The significance of Lady being dead is not a new topic but I wanted to post an observation I have not seen mentioned before. We know from Six Skins prologue that a wolf will bond only with a single warg and that bond is for life. Presumably Lady shared this bond with Sansa prior to her death much as all the other dire wolves and Starks seem to have from first introduction. So Lady is killed and Ned Stark orders that her bones be returned to Winterfell for internment at the lichyard reserved for the faithful servants to House Stark. Presumably this was accomplished.

There are two wolf dreams that seem to suggest that Lady is dead only in body.

Bran POV: Summer wolf dream from aSoS

This cannot refer to Nymeria as she is hunting as a pack leader in the wilds around Gods Eye. It is also in the present tense suggesting that Summer still feels Lady and the environment seems to match what has been described in the crypts.

Jon POV: Ghost wolf dream from aDwD

Notice the diction. It is not four, one of whom cannot be sensed, but rather 4+1. Also, Ghost senses his three living siblings so the 4+1 is explicit, not inferred. At this point both Lady and Grey Wind (and Robb) are dead. Grey Wind is not at Winterfell and with Robb dead I think it safe to assume that he is the -1. So by elimination the +1 can only be Lady and her presence first sensed by Summer is confirmed by Ghost.

So what I'm thinking is that since we know that warging as an ability is affected by distance that once Sansa returns to Winterfell she will start having wolf dreams with Lady. Perhaps then we may learn what happened to Lyanna direct from the source herself with Lady/Sansa as conduit. And/or what is in the crypts. Regardless, the notion that the other dire wolves feel Lady as being dead in body only does open up a dimension that I haven't seen discussed in the forums before.

Doesn't mean 4+1 at all. It means 4 remain (Nymeria, Shaggydog, Summer, and Ghost), and one of those 4, Ghost can no longer sense. Could refer to Summer, but might refer to Shaggydog, who is presumably on Skagos with Rickon. Either way, it doesn't refer to another wolf outside of those 4.

Lady died before her and Sansa developed the bond that all the others developed with their wolves...there was no warging with those 2.

[Tharvot]

It is 4, its 3+1. He knows 4 are alive, but that he cannot sense 1 of them. He cannot sense Bran like Jon could not sense Ghost on opposite sides of the wall.

Either Summer or Shaggydog are presumably the one he cannot sense.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Minuteman, you are referencing 1 of the two most confusing scenes in all of the books, the other being when Tyrion Aegon and Jon Con sail past the same bridge twice. That scene makes no sense if Bran was in the crypts at the time, how would he have had the ability to contact Jon like that before reaching the cave and training with BR? Jon was asleep at the time, imo it was a prophetic Targ dream.

In any case, given how confusing and debatable the scene is I do not think you can use it as evidence.

Also, the line you quoted about it being colder on the other side of the wall, that was where his brother is, comes after the numbers part, hence it is explaining why he cannot sense the 1 brother. He knows he is on the other side of the wall because they were both north of the wall at 1 point, but he cannot sense him now.

Edit: Just to be clear I am not against your overall theory, only the interpretation of the numbers.

[Jak Scaletongue]

The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

"Snow," the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees.

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

@Tharvot - Ghost can definitely sense Shaggydog and Nymeria. It's the following quote that people can't agree on:

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

Personally, I think he can sense Summer as well - that's the way I've chosen to interpret it. I guess we'll see - but there is no definitive answer within the text; he "senses" it's colder on the northern side of the wall, which seems to imply that he can "sense" Summer that same way Ghost knows that Shaggydog is getting pelted with rain. OTOH, Ghost does know that Summer is north of the wall, because he saw Summer north of the wall. So, it seems to me this is a "wait and see" scenario, I don't think we'll figure it out without another book. But until then, it's up to each readers personal interpretation - of which there are many!

ETA: Quote boxes!!

[Minuteman]

Minuteman, you are referencing 1 of the two most confusing scenes in all of the books, the other being when Tyrion Aegon and Jon Con sail past the same bridge twice. That scene makes no sense if Bran was in the crypts at the time, how would he have had the ability to contact Jon like that before reaching the cave and training with BR? Jon was asleep at the time, imo it was a prophetic Targ dream.

In any case, given how confusing and debatable the scene is I do not think you can use it as evidence.

Also, the line you quoted about it being colder on the other side of the wall, that was where his brother is, comes after the numbers part, hence it is explaining why he cannot sense the 1 brother. He knows he is on the other side of the wall because they were both north of the wall at 1 point, but he cannot sense him now.

Edit: Just to be clear I am not against your overall theory, only the interpretation of the numbers.

The numbers from Ghost's dream:

(1) Ghost himself

(2) "A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him" - Shaggydog

(3) "In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her." - Nymeria

(4) "On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer." - Summer (I don't see where you can logically say that Ghost can sense that it is colder where Summer is than where Ghost is while saying that Ghost cannot sense where Summer is).

(5) " ... and the one the white wolf could no longer sense." - ???

So I count five wolves.

Also, Summer's dream where he saw his sister in "the halls of man-rock." None of the wolf dreams have ever had the wolves sense the Starks behind the wolves, only the wolves themselves. So Summer was sensing where his wolf sister was and as mentioned the wilds of the Gods Eye do not conform to the description. That only leaves Lady in the crypts of Winterfell.

[Makk]

Oh yeah, Lady's still there in spirit. Which brings up an interesting thoughts:

Lady came back, but Grey Wind did not come. Lady was buried in Winterfell, while Grey Wind's remains were desecrated and presumably left to rot on some patch of ground near Twins (or just tossed into the river).

Possibly Sansa is still alive but Robb AND Grey Wind are both dead.

But the wording is unconclusive so I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Possibly Sansa is still alive but Robb AND Grey Wind are both dead.

But the wording is unconclusive so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Inconclusive wording make the best theories! It's inconclusive in order to invite speculation! Ned uses inconclusive wording to refer to Jon's mother, yet everyone and their dog is reading much into it! In-world and real world!

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Numbers aside, I definitely think Lady's spirit is still around. If Grey Wind had escaped, I think a part of Robb would remain in the world as long as he lived. Either wolf or bonded Stark will remain in spirit as long as the other lives; I think that's how the warg-bond works. Lady being dead only makes Sansa's blossoming as a warg more difficult, not impossible.

And I agree that Sansa returning to Winterfell, near Lady's bones, will "trigger" this connection.

[The Dames do Moan]

Minuteman-

Do you have a quote to show that a wolf will only bond with one person from the prologue chapter? I just listened to it and I didn't see anything?

I know it says - when you bond with a wolf that's a bond for life, like marriage, and that you are a part of the Wolf and the wolf is a part of you.

But to me that means that when bonding with a wolf that bond is for life, but not that a wolf cannot have more than one bond?

Because we know from that chapter that a wolf can have more than one Warg throughout its life. So if Jon were to die and have his second life in Ghost, Bran could come along and warg Ghost and "push Jon out /down"

The example in the prologue was Haggon, Varymyr's teacher, and his wolf Greyskin. Greyskin was Haggons wolf and after he died Haggon took his second life in him. Varymyr then thought back on when he warged Greyskin after that and pushed out Haggon and that being Varymyr's fourth-six.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The quote you keep posting says "and the one" If it was 4+1 it would say "and one". Your twisting the words to fit your theory.

Edit: The use of the word "the" implies that the 1 is part of the 4.

[Archmaester_Aemma]

Given that the human soul resides in the body of its warg after death, does the animal's soul do the same? I can't remember if Varamyr said so in his prologue... If so, and if it is 4+1 (which I read it as), then Grey Wind would be the one that could no longer be sensed as both Robb and Grey Wind are dead, whereas Lady would be residing in Sansa's body

Dependent on those ifs, of course

[The Dames do Moan]

The significance of Lady being dead is not a new topic but I wanted to post an observation I have not seen mentioned before. We know from Six Skins prologue that a wolf will bond only with a single warg and that bond is for life. Presumably Lady shared this bond with Sansa prior to her death much as all the other dire wolves and Starks seem to have from first introduction. So Lady is killed and Ned Stark orders that her bones be returned to Winterfell for internment at the lichyard reserved for the faithful servants to House Stark. Presumably this was accomplished.

There are two wolf dreams that seem to suggest that Lady is dead only in body.

Bran POV: Summer wolf dream from aSoS

This cannot refer to Nymeria as she is hunting as a pack leader in the wilds around Gods Eye. It is also in the present tense suggesting that Summer still feels Lady and the environment seems to match what has been described in the crypts.

Jon POV: Ghost wolf dream from aDwD

Notice the diction. It is not four, one of whom cannot be sensed, but rather 4+1. Also, Ghost senses his three living siblings so the 4+1 is explicit, not inferred. At this point both Lady and Grey Wind (and Robb) are dead. Grey Wind is not at Winterfell and with Robb dead I think it safe to assume that he is the -1. So by elimination the +1 can only be Lady and her presence first sensed by Summer is confirmed by Ghost.

So what I'm thinking is that since we know that warging as an ability is affected by distance that once Sansa returns to Winterfell she will start having wolf dreams with Lady. Perhaps then we may learn what happened to Lyanna direct from the source herself with Lady/Sansa as conduit. And/or what is in the crypts. Regardless, the notion that the other dire wolves feel Lady as being dead in body only does open up a dimension that I haven't seen discussed in the forums before.

I have to disagree, in the Bran aSoS quote you posted Bran specially says that he can feel their presence, except for the sister they had lost. so he specially says he cannot feel Lady's presence anymore. I also think he is referring to Sansa when he says his sister has left the wild. He doesn't say that he can sense what she is doing this exact moment, just that she left the wild. So that she is no longer "Warging" and what have you and playing other games. That it will be much harder to get back at it with another animal or wolf in the future.

Plus IMHO anyway, Jon's wolf dream in aDwD makes more sense knowing he probably won't be able to feel Lady either. As others have said, the 4 implies to what's left and the 1 he cannot feel is just one of the 4. He feels Shaggydog, Nym, and Himself/Ghost clearly.

Inregards to Bran though, he is just sensing it is colder on the other side of the wall. Sensing as in he felt, thought, etc. not that he could actually specifically sense beyond it. We get specific descriptions of exactly what the other wolves are doing, but just that Summer was on the other side of the wall? Fits better to me anyway if we don't get the description because he can "sense" the wolf.

[The Dames do Moan]

Given that the human soul resides in the body of its warg after death, does the animal's soul do the same? I can't remember if Varamyr said so in his prologue... If so, and if it is 4+1 (which I read it as), then Grey Wind would be the one that could no longer be sensed as both Robb and Grey Wind are dead, whereas Lady would be residing in Sansa's body

Dependent on those ifs, of course

Don't know off hand, I can look, if anyone else has an example that would be great. I just can't get past Bran saying he can't feel Lady's presence anymore in ASOS (first quote of OP) when he can feel everyone else's. Knowing that he can't everything else just falls into place.