House Manderly originally Ironborn?

[The WolfSpider]

I've had this in my head a while and haven't posted about it or seem anything about it and so I wanted to get some opinions about this.

My logic is that with a name like Manderly we all assume they come from near the river in the Reach but with a sigil like the Merling King they have to be near salt water. There hasn't been any connection between fresh water and the Merling King so I would put them at the mouth of the Manderly before being forced to leave the Reach. Maybe even one of the Shield Islands but I doubt it. The mouth of the river is the only place that is both on the river and has access to salt water.

The Ironborn were supposed to have controlled pretty much the entire west coast and this location would certainly fit. Consequently I think they are Ironborn who managed to gain a seat in the reach. Their different heritage may have ever contributed to the Gardeners having them run off.

It's not a lock but I feel like there is enough information to suggest this. Not to mention the only other house to use the Merling King as their sigil was House Greyiron of the Iron Islands. And what better sigil for a house this nomadic?

[LordStoneheart]

They could have adopted that sigil when they moved to the mouth of the White Knife.

[Not a kneeler]

The Manderlys were driven into exile from the Reach according to TWOIAF. They were never Ironborn. They had a lot of power in the Reach and Lord Peake "at the behest of King Perceon III Gardener who feared their swelling power" was behind it. There's a reference to it in the books, as well.

[Not a kneeler]

Forgot to say that the Manderlys worship the Seven, something they brought North from the reach. They must have been there before the Targaryens came.

[The WolfSpider]

I know that Kneeler, I referenced it when I mentioned the Gardeners having them pushed out. That doesn't refute my point at all. I believe they were in the Reach for quite some time but originated from the islands

[The WolfSpider]

@Stoneheart they could have but that doesn't make much sense. No one in the North seems to acknowledge the Merling King. Unless they migrated to the North via sea and are just very grateful to him I don't know why they would adopt it. That idea has merit but seems like a reach.

I believe they adopted the Seven when they assimilated into the Reach

[LordStoneheart]

Is the Merling King an Ironborn thing? I thought it was a narrow sea religion.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Manderlys were the guys settling the Mander when the First Men initially settled the Reach. When the Gardeners united the Reach, they turned into one of the top five noble Houses.

And, a couple millennia later, lost a power struggle with House Peake.

The Merling King is probably a leftover from before the First Men adopted the Old Gods.

[The Witch King of Asshai]

They are confirmed to be descended from the First Men, and were incredibly powerful and established in the Reach, the chances are the Mander is named for them. Their exile had nothing to do with heritage, it was their growing power and the influence of House Peake that did it.

The Merling King is a god of sailors, judging by the House of Black and White, as well as of the sea. The Velaryons, a narrow sea house, believe that their Driftwood Throne was a gift from the Merling King. House Upcliff is also associated with the Merling King, and they are a narrow sea house off the coast of the Vale. So, definitely not an Ironborn thing solely, probably something similar to Garth Greenhand and the original religion of the First Men, from when they first settled, and a sigil that's spread across Westeros. It's not inconceivable that he was a river god, as their are plenty of river galleys on the Mander presumably, all of which have sailors. Also, it seems uniquely un-ironborn to adopt "Green-land" gods like the seven.

This may be pedantic, but the Wiki says their sigil is a merman rather than the Merling King. Is that important? Perhaps their Merman is different from the Merling King, with the Merman more linked to the rivers?

My final point, the Peakes are Marcher Lords, and presumably neighbours to the Manderly's given their great rivalry, and the fact they absorbed their lands after exile. This would suggest that unless their lands were enormous and overlapped oddly with those of Highgarden and Horn Hill, they wouldn't be on the Western Coast.

[The WolfSpider]

Excellent post Witch King but the only thing that solidly counters my thoughts are if they are in fact confirmed to be of first men origin and not just lumped in with First Men based on culture. Do you have a reference? Everything else is just as circumstantial as my points.

Their lands wouldn't have been absorbed so much as given to a younger brother of Peake in which case location doesn't matter. This establishing a cadet branch removed geographically from the main ala the Karstarks.

As for accepting the 7....the Hoares did, establishing precedent

[Slaver's Dread]

What exactly about house Manderly makes you think that they're Iron Born?

[The Witch King of Asshai]

I don't have AWOIAF on hand, it may've been in their or somewhere else, but I'm fairly confident it was canon.

3 Hoare kings accepted the Seven, but then a more traditionally inclined member of the family led an uprising with the Drowned Men and small-folk, and mutilated his brother, mother and a lot of Septons. The Manderly's would've had to rule over a non-ironborn people in order for their conversion to be successful, which is certainly plausible. Perhaps an off-shoot of House Greyiron usurped the Lord of an area and replaced him, allowing the small-folk to keep their faith, until eventually the Manderly's forgot their heritage? However, in my mind that doesn't fit with the snippets of information we have about their past (just my interpretation), their power, feuds, influence etc.

The Head of House Peake was credited as Lord of Starpike, Dustonbury and Whitegrove, Dustonbury being the Manderly Castle, and Lorimar Peake was personally stripped of these castles, which suggests that they were controlled by the main branch of House Peake, rather than a Cadet branch, and were their personal seats. Though there's no solid proof either way, most of the rivals in this book had holdings or kingdoms that have bordered each other at some point in time. The Blackwoods/Brackens, Boltons/Starks, Marcher Lords/Dorne etc. It would make more sense if they bordered each other.

I suspect we'll never know, but it's good to speculate about. Are there any other minor houses with sigils that suggest they have different origins?

[SolomonBlack]

You can't "fake" the history of a noble house too much, they have too many neighbors that take notice of such things and remember. Consider that half the noble house in the Reach still hold being a steward house against the Tyrells. In the mists of the past might be one thing but the Hoare's that accepted the Seven means after the Andals and therefore within written history anything out of that would have been especially noted.

House Manderly has established history laid out in the Worldbook and supportable from the main series with no real reason to doubt it. Like most of the Reach the Manderlys are First Men who would have intermarried with Andals. You might sneak a marriage or three to the Ironborn in via female lines that's been forgotten or some such sure but not outright descent.

And as for the Da Manderly Code? Well every house has some kind of sigil, so why is the Manderlys particularly important? Was Lorch secretly from the far east, Swyft descended from a legendary chicken farmer, and are the Tyrells plant people? There's surely some story to every sigil of course but most of them are going to be pretty mundane. Off hand I'd speculate rather then any secret Ironborn connection (quick find the Ironborn using merling symbols other then the Grey King marrying one) its either ancient and traditional or just say comes from somewhere in the establishment of Seattle and Castle Starbucks White Harbor and symbolizes growing wealthy off the sea.

[BronnBlackwater]

Based on the maps of Westeros the Mander flows all the way to the Sunset Sea so it's not hard to imagine House Manderly using a Merman as a sigil. The Mander was one of the rivers that the IB frequently raided in the past and led to the use of the Shield Islands as watch posts as they sit in the bay right off of where the Mander runs into the Sunset Sea. Actually, I'd guess that the IB and House Manderly have pretty much always been natural enemies. In ADWD when Davos is at White Harbor there is a discussion of how the Starks took in the Manderlys when they were chased out of the Reach and they claim to be members of the Order of the Green Hand (not sure if that is the exact name) which is most likely in reference to Garth Greenhand who is the legendary founder of many of the houses in the Reach.

[The WolfSpider]

Witch King- I think the point that one Lord Peake still controls Starpike while others have been exiled proves that they separate entities, else the whole family would have been exiled. I believe the Manderly/Peake rivalry stems from being two of the most powerful under the Gardeners. Also both being regents for Aegon III play a part as well.

I have done an exhaustive look at the sigils of ASOIAF and believe I have come to see some of the code, yes. The symbolism of colors and animals is huge. The grey and white of Stark symbolize suffering and purity respectively which we can all probably agree are a big part of that house. Wolves are the soldiers of the animal kingdom. Not the most fearsome by themselves but as a pack a match for anything. Wolves are the kings of winter and get stronger as winter goes on because they are able to nourish themselves via hunting as a pack while the other animals grow weak from lack of nourishment. They are survivors like your average soldier. That's why I believe the Last Hero to have been a Stark.

Gold is the color of greed i.e. the Lannisters, Aegon II, etc.

Silver is nobility or altruism i.e. Dany the Silver Queen, Rhaegar, Manderly, Velaryon (I'm not sure Aurane counts), Tully.

The symbolism of the Martells is, I think, quite telling. The sun is slow moving, all-seeing, bright and patient. Just like Doran Martell. I don't think he's above poisoning either!

@Solomon I don't think anything was faked. I just think there's room for a GRRM style twist. Everything we know about the Manderlys can be true and not contradict my theory. It's never said outright the River took its name from them. It's stated as hearsay.

[The WolfSpider]

Mormont-BLACK color of the unknown. BEAR big, hairy/furry, dangerous. Females chase off the males. Bears are cousins to wolves.

Lannister-GOLD color of greed. Is also bright. It's soft too but I haven't seen how that fits in (unless Twyin was actually limp). LION is a pack animal. The males pretty much just fight and let the females do everything including the hunting. That describes the dynamic between Tywin, Jaime and Cersei. Possibly even Ellyn Reyne and her brothers. The females are very territorial and capable of real cruelty. Known to catch young predators and bite through their sides and then walk around the perimeter with the squealing, dying animal in her jaws as a warning to other predators. Cersei fucking Lannister. On a RED field....well that one doesn't need explaining

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

No, they are descended from Garth Greenhand and were the original lords of the Mander (The river is either named after them or they are named after the river.) There are several ancient cultures that had mythologies of people from under the sea in ASoIaF, Toad Islanders, Leng, Sisters, etc.

[The WolfSpider]

Anyone?

[TheSovereignGrave]

Anyone?

I just don't see any real proof of this. Just some taking some facts and saying "hey look, what if the Manderlies were originally Ironborn?".

And I don't think House Manderly's sigil is the Merling King, just a regular old merling. And I've also never seen a mention of House Greyiron's sigil specifically being the Merling King either.

[Joe Pesci]

Why wouldn't they have gone back to the Iron Islands then when they were run out of the Reach?