Jaehaerys I and the clusterfuck of 92-101AC Thread.

[Aemond's Eye]

Jaehaerys didn't just decide one day that Viserys was his heir, he held a great council.

I didn't read of Viserys ever holding a great council.

The Council didn't have the power to name Viserys heir - only to recommend him. Viserys seems to be Jaehaerys preferred heir - why else would he even feel the need to call a Council when Rhaenys should have been heir presumptive? From a cynical point of view, I think he called the Council to both give Viserys credibility and to assess the strength of Rhaenys' true support.

But nowhere is it implied that Jaehaerys was bound by their recommemdation. There's not even any mention of any written succession laws for the Iron Throne, nor any parliament of nobles to prevent Kings from changing laws. (As we see, that's still the case during Joffrey's and Tommen's reigns.) So Jaehaerys didn't need permission to name a different heir. He did, however, need to gauge how much support each candidate had in order to prevent a war.

Viserys did not have any reason to suspect he had to do the same, as many lords had sworn fealty to his chosen heir - Ser Otto among them. Viserys' mistake was not fostering Alicent's sons with Corlys or other blacks, and recalling Otto as Hand rather than naming Corlys or Rhaenyra.

[Lady Darry]

This Bael's son became the Lord not Brandon the Daughterless' brother or cousin or uncle.

But Beal’s son was a bastard, shouldn't then Brandon the Daughterless' brother or cousin or uncle became Lord?

And it was said that Stark line was on the verge of extinction at that time, so maybe Beal’s son was the only option left.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But Beal’s son was a bastard, shouldn't then Brandon the Daughterless' brother or cousin or uncle became Lord?

And it was said that Stark line was on the verge of extinction at that time, so maybe Beal’s son was the only option left.

Nope. It was a fully legal marriage according to the customs of the Free Folk, which may be damn close to First Men customs.

Anyway, all Bael and his bride would need to do was to go to the heart tree and swap cloaks. 30 seconds. And it's just five minutes away. Fully legal before the Old Gods.

Maybe the weirwood roots count as well, in that case the detour through the godswood wouldn't even have been necessary.

[Gibzit]

From the wiki:

...when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her hand an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell, staying hidden in the crypts. Bael's bastard with the daughter of the Lord Stark became the new Lord Stark.

Nope. It was a fully legal marriage according to the customs of the Free Folk, which may be damn close to First Men customs.

Anyway, all Bael and his bride would need to do was to go to the heart tree and swap cloaks. 30 seconds. And it's just five minutes away. Fully legal before the Old Gods.

Maybe the weirwood roots count as well, in that case the detour through the godswood wouldn't even have been necessary.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, the first part of that sentence is definitely at odds with the latter. Because a bastard is definitely not a Stark and a Stark is not a bastard.

[Lord Varys]

Despite the talk about a Lord of Winterfell it seems Bael lived before the Conquest. Which means that effectively everyone the King in the North called a Stark was a Stark. I'm pretty sure quite a lot of bastard branches of House Stark claimed the throne in those years - either with the consent of their fathers or as usurpers.

[Fire Eater]

The Council didn't have the power to name Viserys heir - only to recommend him. Viserys seems to be Jaehaerys preferred heir - why else would he even feel the need to call a Council when Rhaenys should have been heir presumptive? From a cynical point of view, I think he called the Council to both give Viserys credibility and to assess the strength of Rhaenys' true support.

But nowhere is it implied that Jaehaerys was bound by their recommemdation. There's not even any mention of any written succession laws for the Iron Throne, nor any parliament of nobles to prevent Kings from changing laws. (As we see, that's still the case during Joffrey's and Tommen's reigns.) So Jaehaerys didn't need permission to name a different heir. He did, however, need to gauge how much support each candidate had in order to prevent a war.

Viserys did not have any reason to suspect he had to do the same, as many lords had sworn fealty to his chosen heir - Ser Otto among them. Viserys' mistake was not fostering Alicent's sons with Corlys or other blacks, and recalling Otto as Hand rather than naming Corlys or Rhaenyra.

The Great Council also named Aegon V as king. They do have the power to do that given they control the military power of Westeros outside of the dragons and any levy in KL. This is a feudal monarchy not an absolute one. If Jaehaerys went against their recommendation he would be slighting the majority of the lords who voted for Viserys, and be risking a rebellion.

How anyone can blame Old King for Dance. If I remember correctly he held Great Council because he lived so long and had too much issue. He did not want to start a bloody civil war after his death. Viserys I become king after his grandfather because GC choosed male line over female line. Viserys I CHOOSED his daughter over his son and this started Dance after Viserys' death. Old King has nothing to do with Dance.

Agreed, one must admit a Great Council is more preferable for dealing with potential succession crises than a Dance of Dragons.

[BrainFireBob]

The whole issue is that- as demonstrated even by some posters who don't seem to understand the difference- did the Great Council determine an iron precedent of principle for succession, or was it a one-off thing?

Jahaerys didn't make it clear, apparently. There is no Andal law governing who becomes King of Westeros- the Andals lacked a King of Westeros- so the actual kings determine their own laws of succession. Andal law- as reflected in five of the seven kingdoms- did set inheritance precedents, but that applies to them and theirs.

By this point- over 300 years later- there may be a law of regant succession, or so much precedent that a law is assumed without being present (which is what Cersei effectively rails against). But there wasn't at the time.

Now, Robert-Stannis is a different thing. By the laws of the Stormlands- which are still Robert's by right- Stannis is his heir. Since Robert's "goods" include the crown, Stannis inherits that too, so in this instance you can argue that Andal law applies to the crown.

Where Jahaerys erred was that by calling a Great Council, he created a precedent that the great lords had a voice, and therefore, that their traditions and laws might apply by implication- by choosing a secondary male line, some then took it as "only males inherit" *regardless of the actual intent or outcome of the Council*, and Jahaerys did not clarify that. He should have issues a very specific decree in this specific instance making Viserys Prince of Dragonstone, separate from the Council, to clarify whether or not he retained sole discretionary power to name his heir.

[jlk7e]

There is something odd about the entire succession at Jaehaerys' time. Aemon was his undisputed heir and, AFAIK, elder sister Alyssa and her brother-husband never tried to challenge that. But then Aemon dies and his daughter is a serious contender to succeed not her father but grandfather?

This is not odd at all. It's how the British succession always worked, for instance. King George III had an older sister, but succeeded to the throne as the oldest son of King George II's deceased oldest son. Then, later on, his granddaughter Queen Victoria, daughter of George III's fourth son Edward, Duke of Kent, succeeded her uncle William IV ahead of her father's younger brother Ernest, Duke of Cumberland. Sons succeed ahead of daughters; daughters succeed ahead of brothers; daughters of older sons succeed ahead of younger sons; daughters of older sons succeed ahead of sons of younger sons.

Even if the succession laws hadn't just been changed, if Prince William and Prince George both died, Princess Charlotte would succeed ahead of Prince Harry or Prince Harry's sons.

[Fire Eater]

Where Jahaerys erred was that by calling a Great Council, he created a precedent that the great lords had a voice, and therefore, that their traditions and laws might apply by implication- by choosing a secondary male line, some then took it as "only males inherit" *regardless of the actual intent or outcome of the Council*, and Jahaerys did not clarify that. He should have issues a very specific decree in this specific instance making Viserys Prince of Dragonstone, separate from the Council, to clarify whether or not he retained sole discretionary power to name his heir.

No, what Jaehaerys did was smart with the lords deciding by majority rule who would sit the IT rather than it being decided by a Dance of Dragons. Jaehaerys skillfully avoided what could have been a succession war.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Thread gets major points

for incorporating "Clusterfuck" into the title.

http://youtu.be/Sz4rlEy3OtA

[Lord Varys]

In 101 AC Jaehaerys I - the Conciliator, you know - called a Great Council to ensure that whoever succeeded him had a majority of the Lords of the Realm behind him so that a succession war could be avoided. Jaehaerys' preferred candidate was Prince Viserys, the eldest son of his son Prince Baelon, who he had chosen as heir in 92 AC. But I guess Jaehaerys would also have named Laenor his heir had a majority of the Great Council voted for him.

However, the Lords were not asked to make a king there. A Great Council is no Kingsmoot. They were asked for an opinion and they gave it, but the king then decided to honor their ruling or not. That's why TWoIaF states that Jaehaerys I named Viserys Prince of Dragonstone and not the council. I imagine Jaehaerys may have ignored the council altogether if it had been a close thing - say, 55:45. He might then even have decided to name another claimant - say, Archmaester Vaegon - to prevent a civil war between the two powerful factions, or he may have gone with his favorite heir against the council since he enjoyed a lot of support anyway.

The two other Great Council were called by Hands, it seems (the one in 136 AC by Grand Maester Munkun, who served both as Hand and as only regent for Aegon II, and the one in 233 by Bloodraven, who served as Hand for the late Maekar I).

In 233 AC the council also discussed the succession, and while there was no king left alive to name any of the claimants heir it is clear that in absence of a king Bloodraven ruled the Realm in the king's stead with the king's voice until a new king was found. In that sense, the Hand decided in the king's place who was the next king. Bloodraven presided over the Great Council, he controlled things (else he would not have been able to capture and execute Aenys Blackfyre), and he would have been the one accepting the lords' decision to name Egg king, and the one who actually proclaimed Aegon V.