Heresy 167

[Regular John Umber]

I have to confess to being appalled at the hysteria which greeted your OP - no other word is adequate to describe it.

A lot of people are going to be very disappointed in how this story ends. Which is sad, 'cos it's going to be excellent.

[Black Crow]

Is that true though? No one after Aegon V had a dragon. It seems Dany re-initiated the magic in that tent with Mirri Maz Dur.

And did so in what GRRM flatly stated was a one-time magical event which would rule out any viable speculation as to the whys and wherefore. Other than Danaerys being a Targaryen no other explanation is necessary. It happened because GRRM needed it to happen, not because who her ancestors may or may not have married.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

RL. I was in Florida or a year and while in many ways its the back of beyond, I had little time to read and post.

As usual there is notion here i don;t heartily agree with.

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I touched on this in my post and can't wait tiol you w9rk it out.

Magically yes, but either way you slice it it's a huge whack for Jon.

Yield.! Welcome back, brother! Wondered where you'd gone - glad to see you again.

(Thought I'd posted this yesterday, but apparently it didn't take. Westeros has been having site issues...if you hadn't noticed.)

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[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And did so in what GRRM flatly stated was a one-time magical event which would rule out any viable speculation as to the whys and wherefore. Other than Danaerys being a Targaryen no other explanation is necessary. It happened because GRRM needed it to happen, not because who her ancestors may or may not have married.

Agreed generally, BC. Though appealing to "GRRM's need" is really just a way of shrugging off questions we're unable to answer with in-story explanations. I've done it myself. And I still make this appeal whenever JNR tells me how smart Sam Tarly is - I recall Sam telling Mel that dragonglass doesn't harm wights... and all I can say is that Sam is as smart, or as stupid, as Martin needs him to be for any given scene. :)

That said, I tend to believe there are suitable in-story explanations (or rules) for things like magic, historical timelines, and dreams, among others. I haven't worked them all out yet... but I think Martin considers issues of in-story integrity important, and my experience with his puzzles so far leads me to believe he's thought these details through very carefully.

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[Black Crow]

Oh indeed he has, but they only matter if he wants them to matter.

[Yield.]

But it's not complicated, it all has to do with Westeros and that's a way to bring them more intimately into the story . i don't see what i'm saying as complicated.Saying such things as Stark magic vs Flint magic IS complicated when its simple as its a First Man thing.The Targs though they were the conquorers in some ways blood and religion absorbed much.

Where else have we seen that,who else conqoured and absorbed some aspect of those they defeated into their ways?

My gosh we have Queen Selsye calling that Wildling who Tourmond and they don't acknowledge as king just because he had Raymund Redbeard's blood.And how long and far removed is that????

Magic is magic you are right about that,but what shouldn't be ignored is that various factions are manifesting it differently.So for instance Bran and Jon comes from the same household,grew up in the same region but even though Bran is of the North he is NOT of Winter.He is closely associated with Summer.That is the pull magically associated with him,its the manifestation.

Ahhh i see,i was thinking what wires got crossed.

Yes that's what I was getting at with the First Men thing. The greenseeing/skinchanging thing seems to be quite specific to FM and CotF. Blood magic is much more an Essoi thing.The main difference is that one is inborn and the talent will manifest without training where as the other requires spells that must be passed on. The Valyrians are mainly rooted in blood magic, hence their need to use horns, whips and sorcery in order to control their dragons. But when they come over to Westeros we see people no longer needing these tactics. Is there a connection? Maybe, maybe I'm misremembering or Dany is an unreliable narrator here. One thing is certain is that the Targs are a blend of both eastern and western heritage and magics.

Pretty much the same boat I'm in. I'd like Martin to do something amazing with the trope, but in the end, it might simply be as it appears. As BC used to say, we've no reason to doubt RLJ. Being a son of Winterfell is a given, even if he ends up being the lovechild of Arthur Dayne and Elia Martell, it makes no matter. He was raised by Eddard.

Now with that being said, if Rhaegar is Jon's father, this has far more profound implications for the "Song of Ice and Fire" than the other pairings.

If Arthur Dayne is Jon's father, that opens up the SotM dynamic, which would also be interesting, but not as much, imo.

If it turns out George hasn't done 'obvious', then Lyanna isn't Jon Snow's mother, as she is far more obvious than any of the possible sires. In such a scenario, I like Benjen/Brandon+Ashara, or Ned+Ashara/Wylla. I think it would be awesome if Ned was simply telling the truth to Robert on that ride. And, I think Weasel Pie's idea of R+L=Daenerys would turn the whole trope on it's head. Dany would be a hidden Stark, and her father will have looked into her very eyes in the House of the Undying and proclaimed, "there must be one more." Jon would be a hidden Son of Winterfell that isn't.

As unlikely as these seem, this sort of thinking seems to be more in the right direction if we are taking Parris' statement to heart. That was a glimpse behind the curtain. And if George doesn't do obvious, Lyanna+Arthur or Lyanna+Anybody for that matter, seem no less obvious than RLJ.

If we accept Lyanna as Jon's mother, Parris' statement must be discarded. She's the most obvious part of RLJ.

And here's another idea...

What if D&D answered "Wylla!" LOL

I tend to see the Azor Ahai concept itself as a sham, spread by brainwashed cult leaders, but you have a point. Mel is so bad at prophecy, that dismissing Jon in her flames actually favors that he does fill such an archetype.

This is where I'm leaning as well. I see Jon as a new version of the Last Hero. The prince that was promised is an interesting wrinkle. When Maester Aemon realizes Mel is talking about the battle for the dawn, he asks her where is the prince that was promised.

ASOS Samwell V

"That is my concern. I shall require a list from you, detailing the present state of every castle and what might be required to restore it. I mean to have them all garrisoned again within the year, and nightfires burning before their gates."

"Nightfires?" Bowen Marsh gave Melisandre an uncertain look. "We're to light nightfires now?"

"You are." The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. "Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

The promised prince seems closely associated with the Battle for the Dawn, which in turn seems to be the climactic battle that occurred at the end of the Long Night.

ACOK Bran III

Much later, after all the sweets had been served and washed down with gallons of summerwine, the food was cleared and the tables shoved back against the walls to make room for the dancing. The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

The World Book supports this equation as well (Ancient History- The Long Night):

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.

So while the "how" of it is legend, all the tales seem to agree a hero rose to meet this challenge. The Last Hero is said to have wielded a sword made of dragonsteel, and Maester Aemon doubts Stannis is the prince that was promised because his shiny sword emits no heat. Call me crazy, but I have a feeling a sword called "dragonsteel" emits heat. So while I'm undecided on Azor Ahai, I believe the Last Hero was the prince that was promised.

I don't know your stance on the World Book, Flagons, but keeping in mind what I just commented above, this seems to confirm the Last Hero's name was Brandon:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

Of course, the tale is cut off before the good stuff, but you can see here that Bran the Builder has done exactly what the Last Hero is said to have done.

This also supports Old Nan's "mayhaps"...if you think the Last Hero might have been Night's King...

ASOS Bran IV

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

But I know I'm in the minority on that one :)

A bit off topic, but one could make a case for Glass Candles being a Valyrian parallel with the ability to see through the eyes of ravens/trees.

Famke is far too old to be Lyanna, but I'm a big fan of Lagertha, even if her hair color is wrong :cheers:

Yup. I could say more but the text speaks for itself really. Without Aegon V's Valyrian blood, transmitted to his children, paternally, Dany would not have been able to hatch dragons, and have dragon dreams. Bran Stark, without Ned's Stark blood, would not be where he is today with a direwolf of all things at his side.

And as you say, GRRM is not about to paint himself into a corner by placing too many rules around magic. Hence why there is a breaker of every "magical rule."

I had forgotten about that quote from Aemon. Yes he definitely equates the two as one person and neither Mel, Stannis or Sam contradict him, so we are left with the impression that these two men are one and the same. However Mell claims that the PtwP is also Azor Ahai reborn in Stannis. So now we've got three for the price of one. But legends tend to have that happen to them in Martin's world mythos so I'll still hold my level of doubt on this one.

Famke wasn't always (and indeed is not now) too old. I started reading these books in the late 1990s so she was none too old then. :P

No, unless Thoros of Myr, Mirri Maz Duur, Moqorro, Quaithe of the Shadow, Melisandre of Asshai, Pyat Pree, Benerro, Maggy the Frog, Ezzelyno, the man who cut Varys, and perhaps Qyburn, Marwyn, the Faceless Men and the Dosh Khaleen are descended from First Men. ;)

We don't honestly know if Qyburn or Marwyn aren't descendents of FM but yes I see your point, and agree with it. Also, where in Essos did the Firstmen come from? Can't remember if I ever even knew, lol.

Of course the real problem with R+L=J is not the question in itself but rather the supplementary assumption that if true then he is not only the rightful heir to the Iron but the Prince that was Promised and Azor Ahai, bearing of the fiery sword who will do the business against the Others.

This I think is the real red herring; that there is no magical hero. Yes there will be heroes and perhaps one last one pre-eminent among them, but to revert to the synopsis it is the survival of humanity which is at stake - and that will require a very human hero to win that fight.

Actually the first part boils my blood (not picking on you BC, just the assertion many have to this being the case) because the throne was lost due to right of conquest with Bobby B. That's the reason Dany needs to retake Westeros. Now could the people revolt and put Perkins Warbeck on the throne because of who they think he is? yes absolutely, but he's got no right to it even if was Edward IV's son. And lets not even mention that if RLJ is true we still have zero proof he's legitimate.

I agree totally that the person, not their heritage, is what will ultimately save the day. Or perhaps I should say persons since we seem to have an excess of would be heroes all embodying different traits that are needed by the world at large in order to make past winter.

No apologies necessary. It's a good subject. And welcome back to Heresy.

Thanks for the welcome :cheers:

[Black Crow]

Actually the first part boils my blood (not picking on you BC, just the assertion many have to this being the case) because the throne was lost due to right of conquest with Bobby B. That's the reason Dany needs to retake Westeros. Now could the people revolt and put Perkins Warbeck on the throne because of who they think he is? yes absolutely, but he's got no right to it even if was Edward IV's son. And lets not even mention that if RLJ is true we still have zero proof he's legitimate.

I agree totally that the person, not their heritage, is what will ultimately save the day. Or perhaps I should say persons since we seem to have an excess of would be heroes all embodying different traits that are needed by the world at large in order to make past winter.

Exactly so. GRRM has mentioned before that one of his influences is the Jacobite business and I deliberately use the term "rightful lawful king" accordingly because it reflects the Jacobite nonsense about rightful lawful kings generations after the last of their house was booted off the throne.

[Black Crow]

Oh indeed he has, but they only matter if he wants them to matter.

By way of clarification I'll go a little further. If it matters GRRM will tell us it matters by giving us the information in text rather than in family trees and histories put together for the world book

[Yield.]

Blimey I forgot how fast this thread can move!

There is, and that's not really what I was trying to get at. My core complaint is with the very specific statement on the first page that fathers can only pass on physical inheritance, but that magic comes from the mother--I'm saying that no such rule exists for the Targs, and is essentially unverifiable (and unnecessary) for everyone else.

I getcha. And I'm not sure if it is needed for the story unless it happens to be the explanation or subtext to Jon (or anyone else for that matter) being the one the song of Ice and Fire is about. Not to throw too many more complications into this, we know in real life that MtDNA can only be passed from a mother to her children and that means only the daughters can pass it on in turn. Same is true of Y=DNA but in the father to son scenario.

The Targs, as I said up thread, are bridge between both magic types. I know Martin doesn't describe them as different but there is still a marked difference. Someone who can communicate, soul to soul with another is not the same as mixing a bunch of stuff in a jar, saying 'hocus pocus' and getting wildfire. These are two radically different approaches to magic.

yes, the whole "stuff the citadel doesnt even have!" line is interesting for a lot of reasons. I always thought the CotF translation scroll might be a breadcrumb.

ty, it suits me lol.

and thanks for your wise response over on my Lyanna /= TOJ thread

Mate my heart goes out to you! I just found that thread thanks to the comments here (rarely do I venture into the fascist territory that is the GenBrd) and boy have they been brutal to a perfectly reasonable thesis. As one of my colleagues in FL is fond of saying 'You can't fix stupid.' To which I add 'But ignorance can be rectified if the person is willing.'

Total digression; in the other story about the Raven King, his harbinger Vinculus is absolutely superbly played by Paul Kaye but as yet alas no there's no sign of Heresy 137.

Wot? There's a whole thread gone? Why?

Yield.! Welcome back, brother! Wondered where you'd gone - glad to see you again.

(Thought I'd posted this yesterday, but apparently it didn't take. Westeros has been having site issues...if you hadn't noticed.)

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Thanks big man! Yes I have indeed noticed, as I said on one of my double posts, I will start putting up random quotes just to pass the time and amuse us, why not have fun?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Wot? There's a whole thread gone? Why?

More than one, as it turns out. Two of them were disappeared by Mods... and though one of those was later returned, it is no longer whole, and will never again be the same as it was. The third is a much more mysterious tale, best told by Black Crow. (Though if you've ever read Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, the explanation may sound familiar. ;) )

[Prince of Ghost]

I am glad everyone in this thread is so respectful of other people's ideas, theories and opinions. I am following Weasel Pie's thread about the Tower Of Joy at the same time as I as I follow the heresy thread and the overall atmosphere is just so much more respectful over here and I wanted everyone to know that it is much appreciated and thank you Black Crow for starting the heresy thread!

[Black Crow]

I am glad everyone in this thread is so respectful of other people's ideas, theories and opinions. I am following Weasel Pie's thread about the Tower Of Joy at the same time as I as I follow the heresy thread and the overall atmosphere is just so much more respectful over here and I wanted everyone to know that it is much appreciated and thank you Black Crow for starting the heresy thread!

My pleasure - and it really is. Welcome to Heresy

[Black Crow]

As some of you will recall Heresy 137 was destroyed by a novice named Vinculus who got caught short one night and grabbed the first thing he saw to wipe his arse afterwards. As it happens all that was lost was the OP which is pretty much the same from heresy to heresy but he was so stricken with terror at what he'd done that he tore up the rest and ate it in an attempt to destroy the evidence.

Unfortunately all the words then appeared on his skin. Like most novices he rarely washed so this curious mark of his guilt went undiscovered for some time. Eventually however the secret came out and his fellow novices were set to copying it out but no-one could agree as to the running order of the posts and some of the text ran into places no-one cared to go so that while a number of transcripts are understood to exist, most are regarded as incomplete or apocryphal.

As I mentioned upthread in the mummers' version of the Raven King features Paul Kaye [Thoros] as a stonkingly good Vinculus, so there's hope yet that Heresy 137 might be recovered. :cool4:

[Black Crow]

Double post

[moey reed]

I am glad everyone in this thread is so respectful of other people's ideas, theories and opinions. I am following Weasel Pie's thread about the Tower Of Joy at the same time as I as I follow the heresy thread and the overall atmosphere is just so much more respectful over here and I wanted everyone to know that it is much appreciated and thank you Black Crow for starting the heresy thread!

i know right?!

i don't get the whole 'shame on people for having a different point of view on things' attitude

[Matthew.]

Also, where in Essos did the Firstmen come from? Can't remember if I ever even knew, lol.

Supposedly, they may have come from the Grasslands, which is known as the Dothraki Sea in modern Essos.

I think there's a very, very slight chance that there's something potentially interesting there; the WB and the HBO history and lore DVD extras have little bits of information that suggest that, rather than arriving in dribs and drabs and taking Westeros from the natives piecemeal, that the FM arrived in their thousands, and conquered their way into the North in a very short span of time.

[TheSmallOther]

Supposedly, they may have come from the Grasslands, which is known as the Dothraki Sea in modern Essos.

I think there's a very, very slight chance that there's something potentially interesting there; the WB and the HBO history and lore DVD extras have little bits of information that suggest that, rather than arriving in dribs and drabs and taking Westeros from the natives piecemeal, that the FM arrived in their thousands, and conquered their way into the North in a very short span of time.

Which would suggest there was something driving them out. Some cataclysm, dark magic, strong enemy, you name it.

Or in other words - Westeros and Essos have more common history than just Valyrians. And I'd suspect these two continents to share similar fates one day. Not identical, of course, but some aspects should be present. E.g., if magic will be gone from Westeros, one also needs to be gone from Essos. Otherwise there is no point.

[wolfmaid7]

Actually before that, thrice in a row:

Daeron the Good married Mariah Martell (who did not have Targaryen blood in her)

Maekar I married Dyanna Dayne (who we can speculate might have had Valyrian heritage given features common to House Dayne: pale blond hair & violet eyes; but that's speculation)

Aegon V married Betha Blackwood

So... the Targaryen inheritance had to survive three generations of male only inheritance to get to Dany.

Targ men married women of First men origin,thus assimilating the matriarcial blood line of FM women into their own.....Yeah that is my point.Magical blood was sewn into the Targs via the FM matriarchial bloodline.

Yes that's what I was getting at with the First Men thing. The greenseeing/skinchanging thing seems to be quite specific to FM and CotF. Blood magic is much more an Essoi thing.The main difference is that one is inborn and the talent will manifest without training where as the other requires spells that must be passed on. The Valyrians are mainly rooted in blood magic, hence their need to use horns, whips and sorcery in order to control their dragons. But when they come over to Westeros we see people no longer needing these tactics. Is there a connection? Maybe, maybe I'm misremembering or Dany is an unreliable narrator here. One thing is certain is that the Targs are a blend of both eastern and western heritage and magics.

Dido.....I don't know who Daenys the Dreamer's mother was and that probably isn't important only that when the Targs survived the Doom it was day 1 for them and she was the one who we knew had the gift of Prophetic dreams and was the matriach of the family and that gift survived because of her.

Remove the labels Green dreaming and the Targ prophetic dreams are pretty much the same thing down to the core .They are all Dreamers this is what made communication with Direwolves, Dragons,Crows and Trees so easy but that's just part of it. The other part of how do you get their spirits to mingle came after with the introduction of FM blood.

I agree with you and mentioned this before,the whole "seeing" be it natural or by sorcery came out of Esoss because they all came from there.To me it is also one explanation of why the FM believed the trees really had eyes and were spying on them.Some of their people who were dreamers were probably getting Tree dreams and such because the locals were trying to communicate.If i don't know your speech,and you don't know mine this would be a sure way to open lines of communication.It could also be seen as something else.

I am glad everyone in this thread is so respectful of other people's ideas, theories and opinions. I am following Weasel Pie's thread about the Tower Of Joy at the same time as I as I follow the heresy thread and the overall atmosphere is just so much more respectful over here and I wanted everyone to know that it is much appreciated and thank you Black Crow for starting the heresy thread!

Welcome to Heresy dive on in.

[Black Crow]

Targ men married women of First men origin,thus assimilating the matriarcial blood line of FM women into their own.....Yeah that is my point.Magical blood was sewn into the Targs via the FM matriarchial bloodline.

Dido.....I don't know who Daenys the Dreamer's mother was and that probably isn't important only that when the Targs survived the Doom it was day 1 for them and she was the one who we knew had the gift of Prophetic dreams and was the matriach of the family and that gift survived because of her.

Nah, I have to disagree. The Targaryens are as they are without and intervention by strong women from outside. They escaped the Doom and fled west precisely because the Dreamer warned them to go.

[Black Crow]

Which would suggest there was something driving them out. Some cataclysm, dark magic, strong enemy, you name it.

Not necessarily, GRRM's early history of Westeros is pretty loosely based on the early history of the island of Britain with successive waves of invaders piling up on its shores all the way from the Celts up to Bill [or in our case Aegon] the conqueror. Historically yes those invaders were to some degree themselves keeping one step ahead of the next lot, but it was all part of a natural cycle rather than a specific horror somewhere out east and I'd be very much to see the pressures that saw the First Men move west as being dead and gone historical rather than a present danger reasserting itself and relevant to the present.

Sure there's the question of Valyria, but I'm inclined to see the Valyrian Fire as something that has been purged and dealt a deadly blow and can be finished off providing this present late resurgence by the return of the last dragonlord is dealt with, but either way at the end of the day GRRM has made it clear that this story is about Westeros rather than the wide world.