Heresy 167

[Yield.]

You have been missed.....To me it ultimately comes down to choice.I mentioned this on the previous thread.I talk about characters in this story being used as tools because that also does come into play.Blood does matter,but it might not matter to characters like Jon or Bran etc.Dany may spout that stuff without realizing what it means to some people.

But for other characters like Mel or BR etc Blood is very important ,and as long as its important to them its important to the story because of how they mean to utilize it.Even if Jon and the likes of him are oblivious to,don't care in the end about such things.

Woops!

I just noticed a typo that had an unintended reversal of what I meant...

What the line under your previous quote was supposed to read as:-

'As usual there is nothing here I don't heartily agree with'

NOT 'there is a notion here' etc

And like I said blood is important, but what a character does is more so.

[Yield.]

:cheers: Identity in general is something we discussed a while back and has spilled over into the current threads too. Nice points you make about the struggle with this concept of identity.

My apologies for prolonging this then. As you know I haven't been here for about a year so this is just me catching up :)

[wolfmaid7]

No, I'm arguing that either parent can pass on magical gifts. I use the Aegon V example because, if it was all about the mother, then any magic gifts there are to inherit from Old Valyria should have been lost with Aegon V, since he didn't have a sister wife. In essence, if the roles were reversed, and if BR had a Blackwood father and a Targaryen mother, I see no reason why his gifts couldn't have been the same as they are now.

I think it's a mechanic that would complicate the magic without actually improving the world or the story.

As an example of how this can make a mess of things, if we say that it has to be the mother that passes on magic, then can we truly say there is such a thing as a magical gift inherent to, say, the Blackwoods, just because BR has the gift? Sure, he gets the gift from his Blackwood mother, but who did she get it from? Let's say speculatively, that her mother is a Frey--does that mean that BR's gift is actually a Frey gift, because his grandmother on his mother's side was a Frey? And what about her mother, and then her mother...and so forth.

Or, to bring it to the Starks, if we say that Catelyn's children have actually inherited Tully magic, and only Jon has Stark magic through Lyanna, is that accurate? Lyanna is a Stark, her mother Lyarra is a Stark, but Lyarra's mother is a Flint, so does that mean that Jon Stark's family gift is actually a Flint gift? :bang:

Basically, what I'm getting at is that this is probably one area of the story that shouldn't be overthought; magic is supposed to be mysterious. Bran et al don't have magic because their grandmother was a Whent, they have magic because, for plot purposes, it's appropriate that the Starks bond with direwolves, just as it's symbolically appropriate that Dany reawaken the magic of fire and blood, and bring back dragons--no need to have some extra layer where her bond with Drogon is actually because her great grandmother was Betha Blackwood.

But it's not complicated, it all has to do with Westeros and that's a way to bring them more intimately into the story . i don't see what i'm saying as complicated.Saying such things as Stark magic vs Flint magic IS complicated when its simple as its a First Man thing.The Targs though they were the conquorers in some ways blood and religion absorbed much.

Where else have we seen that,who else conqoured and absorbed some aspect of those they defeated into their ways?

My gosh we have Queen Selsye calling that Wildling who Tourmond and they don't acknowledge as king just because he had Raymund Redbeard's blood.And how long and far removed is that????

Magic is magic you are right about that,but what shouldn't be ignored is that various factions are manifesting it differently.So for instance Bran and Jon comes from the same household,grew up in the same region but even though Bran is of the North he is NOT of Winter.He is closely associated with Summer.That is the pull magically associated with him,its the manifestation.

Woops!

I just noticed a typo that had an unintended reversal of what I meant...

What the line under your previous quote was supposed to read as:-

'As usual there is nothing here I don't heartily agree with'

NOT 'there is a notion here' etc

And like I said blood is important, but what a character does is more so.

Ahhh i see,i was thinking what wires got crossed.

[Yield.]

No, I'm arguing that either parent can pass on magical gifts. I use the Aegon V example because, if it was all about the mother, then any magic gifts there are to inherit from Old Valyria should have been lost with Aegon V, since he didn't have a sister wife. In essence, if the roles were reversed, and if BR had a Blackwood father and a Targaryen mother, I see no reason why his gifts couldn't have been the same as they are now.

I think it's a mechanic that would complicate the magic without actually improving the world or the story.

As an example of how this can make a mess of things, if we say that it has to be the mother that passes on magic, then can we truly say there is such a thing as a magical gift inherent to, say, the Blackwoods, just because BR has the gift? Sure, he gets the gift from his Blackwood mother, but who did she get it from? Let's say speculatively, that her mother is a Frey--does that mean that BR's gift is actually a Frey gift, because his grandmother on his mother's side was a Frey? And what about her mother, and then her mother...and so forth.

Or, to bring it to the Starks, if we say that Catelyn's children have actually inherited Tully magic, and only Jon has Stark magic through Lyanna, is that accurate? Lyanna is a Stark, her mother Lyarra is a Stark, but Lyarra's mother is a Flint, so does that mean that Jon Stark's family gift is actually a Flint gift? :bang:

Basically, what I'm getting at is that this is probably one area of the story that shouldn't be overthought; magic is supposed to be mysterious. Bran et al don't have magic because their grandmother was a Whent, they have magic because, for plot purposes, it's appropriate that the Starks bond with direwolves, just as it's symbolically appropriate that Dany reawaken the magic of fire and blood, and bring back dragons--no need to have some extra layer where her bond with Drogon is actually because her great grandmother was Betha Blackwood.

I see, thank you. Generally I agree with the not over-thinking stuff. Yet there are things Martin purposely put in to make us do a double take (all those references he speaks about being due to prior works, the secondary and even tertiary meanings he puts in so that his is an enduring, rich epic.) The problem arises when we don't know which of these tangents to pursue.

There's definitely something going on with the Firstmen Blood however.

Catelyn's mother was a Whent you say (haven't gotten the World Book yet -- fingers crossed it's on the Father's Day list, lol!) Is Whent a Firstmen descendent? Are all the magically inclined at least partially from FM blood? I'm not questioning you as a form of negation to your argument just curious and feel free to point me in the right direction -- you or anyone else please. don't wanna repeat a whole lotta ground already covered.

[Voice]

Thanks for the welcome home (and that is how it feels.)

R+L-J is too obvious, but that's not to say it isn't true. I wish it wasn't and that Martin had a really nice twist for that, but alas some conventions must be followed. I found the hints in Game as heavy handed as they are telegraphing on the show.

Pretty much the same boat I'm in. I'd like Martin to do something amazing with the trope, but in the end, it might simply be as it appears. As BC used to say, we've no reason to doubt RLJ. Being a son of Winterfell is a given, even if he ends up being the lovechild of Arthur Dayne and Elia Martell, it makes no matter. He was raised by Eddard.

Now with that being said, if Rhaegar is Jon's father, this has far more profound implications for the "Song of Ice and Fire" than the other pairings.

If Arthur Dayne is Jon's father, that opens up the SotM dynamic, which would also be interesting, but not as much, imo.

If it turns out George hasn't done 'obvious', then Lyanna isn't Jon Snow's mother, as she is far more obvious than any of the possible sires. In such a scenario, I like Benjen/Brandon+Ashara, or Ned+Ashara/Wylla. I think it would be awesome if Ned was simply telling the truth to Robert on that ride. And, I think Weasel Pie's idea of R+L=Daenerys would turn the whole trope on it's head. Dany would be a hidden Stark, and her father will have looked into her very eyes in the House of the Undying and proclaimed, "there must be one more." Jon would be a hidden Son of Winterfell that isn't.

As unlikely as these seem, this sort of thinking seems to be more in the right direction if we are taking Parris' statement to heart. That was a glimpse behind the curtain. And if George doesn't do obvious, Lyanna+Arthur or Lyanna+Anybody for that matter, seem no less obvious than RLJ.

If we accept Lyanna as Jon's mother, Parris' statement must be discarded. She's the most obvious part of RLJ.

And here's another idea...

What if D&D answered "Wylla!" LOL

The Azor Ahai thing and Jon being the one is again, blatant. I'm thinking here how all Mel sees in her fire is Snow since that, in all honesty, probably means it's true because she dismisses it out of hand.

I tend to see the Azor Ahai concept itself as a sham, spread by brainwashed cult leaders, but you have a point. Mel is so bad at prophecy, that dismissing Jon in her flames actually favors that he does fill such an archetype.

However if we are talking about the Last Hero, the Dragon that was Promised and Azor Ahai all being one, then no. Jon is either all of them of none of them in that situation, which if he \was is would not only be a much used trope, it'd be boring too. Now if there was a case made to prove Jon was the Last Hero, then I'm your lad.

This is where I'm leaning as well. I see Jon as a new version of the Last Hero. The prince that was promised is an interesting wrinkle. When Maester Aemon realizes Mel is talking about the battle for the dawn, he asks her where is the prince that was promised.

ASOS Samwell V

"That is my concern. I shall require a list from you, detailing the present state of every castle and what might be required to restore it. I mean to have them all garrisoned again within the year, and nightfires burning before their gates."

"Nightfires?" Bowen Marsh gave Melisandre an uncertain look. "We're to light nightfires now?"

"You are." The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. "Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

The promised prince seems closely associated with the Battle for the Dawn, which in turn seems to be the climactic battle that occurred at the end of the Long Night.

ACOK Bran III

Much later, after all the sweets had been served and washed down with gallons of summerwine, the food was cleared and the tables shoved back against the walls to make room for the dancing. The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

The World Book supports this equation as well (Ancient History- The Long Night):

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.

So while the "how" of it is legend, all the tales seem to agree a hero rose to meet this challenge. The Last Hero is said to have wielded a sword made of dragonsteel, and Maester Aemon doubts Stannis is the prince that was promised because his shiny sword emits no heat. Call me crazy, but I have a feeling a sword called "dragonsteel" emits heat. So while I'm undecided on Azor Ahai, I believe the Last Hero was the prince that was promised.

It is weird all the Brandon throughout the history of Starks. The Builder who is said to built Winterfell and maybe the Wall. B. The Breaker associated with the Night's King. The Night's King whom Old Nan says his name may have been Brandon too. B. Ice Eyes with ice eyes who fell upon his enemies during a harsh Winter. The loveable Bran and all the others in between.

Something I'd like to know, was the Last Hero named Brandon also? A hero Stark before the Starks were cool? I find the possibility intriguing and funny that the Last Hero could have the name and blood of the Stark Family.

I was trying to say something about identity but I got distracted and lost my point(s). :) Oh well.

I don't know your stance on the World Book, Flagons, but keeping in mind what I just commented above, this seems to confirm the Last Hero's name was Brandon:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

Of course, the tale is cut off before the good stuff, but you can see here that Bran the Builder has done exactly what the Last Hero is said to have done.

This also supports Old Nan's "mayhaps"...if you think the Last Hero might have been Night's King...

ASOS Bran IV

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

But I know I'm in the minority on that one :)

True. Her mother however is a Rhaenys, as was Rhaegar's, you know the other one who was thought to be the prophesied one. If you're talking about magical powers being handed down the paternal line only (forgive me I'm a bit out of the lop here), I would remind you that BR displays more Old Blood talent than Fire and Blood. He is the descendent of the First Men on his maternal line so an argument could be made that his seeing with A Thousand Eyes and One comes from her, since not one of the Targs have shown that ability.

A bit off topic, but one could make a case for Glass Candles being a Valyrian parallel with the ability to see through the eyes of ravens/trees.

I've always pictured her as a this but lately I've been envisioning her as Lagertha.

Famke is far too old to be Lyanna, but I'm a big fan of Lagertha, even if her hair color is wrong :cheers:

No, I'm arguing that either parent can pass on magical gifts. I use the Aegon V example because, if it was all about the mother, then any magic gifts there are to inherit from Old Valyria should have been lost with Aegon V, since he didn't have a sister wife. In essence, if the roles were reversed, and if BR had a Blackwood father and a Targaryen mother, I see no reason why his gifts couldn't have been the same as they are now.

I think it's a mechanic that would complicate the magic without actually improving the world or the story.

As an example of how this can make a mess of things, if we say that it has to be the mother that passes on magic, then can we truly say there is such a thing as a magical gift inherent to, say, the Blackwoods, just because BR has the gift? Sure, he gets the gift from his Blackwood mother, but who did she get it from? Let's say speculatively, that her mother is a Frey--does that mean that BR's gift is actually a Frey gift, because his grandmother on his mother's side was a Frey? And what about her mother, and then her mother...and so forth.

Or, to bring it to the Starks, if we say that Catelyn's children have actually inherited Tully magic, and only Jon has Stark magic through Lyanna, is that accurate? Lyanna is a Stark, her mother Lyarra is a Stark, but Lyarra's mother is a Flint, so does that mean that Jon Stark's family gift is actually a Flint gift? :bang:

Basically, what I'm getting at is that this is probably one area of the story that shouldn't be overthought; magic is supposed to be mysterious. Bran et al don't have magic because their grandmother was a Whent, they have magic because, for plot purposes, it's appropriate that the Starks bond with direwolves, just as it's symbolically appropriate that Dany reawaken the magic of fire and blood, and bring back dragons--no need to have some extra layer where her bond with Drogon is actually because her great grandmother was Betha Blackwood.

Yup. I could say more but the text speaks for itself really. Without Aegon V's Valyrian blood, transmitted to his children, paternally, Dany would not have been able to hatch dragons, and have dragon dreams. Bran Stark, without Ned's Stark blood, would not be where he is today with a direwolf of all things at his side.

And as you say, GRRM is not about to paint himself into a corner by placing too many rules around magic. Hence why there is a breaker of every "magical rule."

[Voice]

Are all the magically inclined at least partially from FM blood? I'm not questioning you as a form of negation to your argument just curious and feel free to point me in the right direction -- you or anyone else please. don't wanna repeat a whole lotta ground already covered.

No, unless Thoros of Myr, Mirri Maz Duur, Moqorro, Quaithe of the Shadow, Melisandre of Asshai, Pyat Pree, Benerro, Maggy the Frog, Ezzelyno, the man who cut Varys, and perhaps Qyburn, Marwyn, the Faceless Men and the Dosh Khaleen are descended from First Men. ;)

[Black Crow]

That moved a bit last night... so once again with my usual breath-taking arrogance, a summary to cover all of it.

I think a lot of this bloodline stuff is being over-emphasised. Danaerys hatched those dragon eggs in what GRRM flatly stated was a one-time magical event, period. It had nothing to do with stray ancestors from outside the Targaryen bloodline. It was sufficient that she is a Targaryen and that the story required her to have dragons. Likewise Bran is a greenseer not because his mother was a Tully but because he is a Stark and if you really want to be picky was groomed by Bloodraven, but that's in the story not a hidden backstory.

Jon is a Stark and that's why R+L=J is a red herring. Yes, his father might have been Rhaegar Targaryen but he takes after his Stark mother.

I myself have two sons; the elder is a clone of myself in every way, good and bad. There's the occasional [good] flash of his mother but taken as a person he is my son. My younger son on the other hand is a mirror of his mother.

Point being that each is unmistakably one or the other, rather than black and white mixed to make grey. In the same way, whether his father was Rhaegar or anybody else, Jon is fundamentally a Stark and aint about to be transformed into something he patently isn't.

Finding that his father was Rhaegar Targaryen, who was ultimatey responsible for plunging Westeros into this murderous cycle of wars and perhaps thereby triggering what's to come will indeed be an ironic and savage twist in the story but its not going to make him want to hug a dragon.

[Black Crow]

Of course the real problem with R+L=J is not the question in itself but rather the supplementary assumption that if true then he is not only the rightful heir to the Iron but the Prince that was Promised and Azor Ahai, bearing of the fiery sword who will do the business against the Others.

This I think is the real red herring; that there is no magical hero. Yes there will be heroes and perhaps one last one pre-eminent among them, but to revert to the synopsis it is the survival of humanity which is at stake - and that will require a very human hero to win that fight.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

My apologies for prolonging this then. As you know I haven't been here for about a year so this is just me catching up :)

No apologies necessary. It's a good subject. And welcome back to Heresy.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Voice of the First Men said

I don't know your stance on the World Book, Flagons, but keeping in mind what I just commented above, this seems to confirm the Last Hero's name was Brandon:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

Of course, the tale is cut off before the good stuff, but you can see here that Bran the Builder has done exactly what the Last Hero is said to have done.

I have no problem with the World Book and that piece you quoted here is a good founding father myths. Like Garth Greenhand I'm sure there are truths about him and in his story there are pieces of other people's, including multiple Bran's and Brandons, tales and doings. (maybe even a Brynden or a Branda or a clan chief that was very stark) The one who found the Singers during the Long Night and the builder of the Wall and a person or people who first learned to speak with the cotf all gathered into one ballad.

[Black Crow]

I have no problem with the World Book and that piece you quoted here is a good founding father myths. Like Garth Greenhand I'm sure there are truths about him and in his story there are pieces of other people's, including multiple Bran's and Brandons, tales and doings. (maybe even a Brynden or a Branda or a clan chief that was very stark) The one who found the Singers during the Long Night and the builder of the Wall and a person or people who first learned to speak with the cotf all gathered into one ballad.

Its certainly a very common trend in heroic history to find different deeds ascribed to just one individual and indeed GRRM himself comments on this in regards to Bran the Builder:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

... he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

As to the suggestion that the Last Hero and Bran the Builder are one and the same that would appear to be explicitly ruled out not just by the different circumstances [pursued through the woods - building the Wall], but by our Bran's rejection of the offer to be told the story of Bran the Builder in favour of the story of the Last Hero. To his mind they are very clearly two different individuals and given that Bran the Builder is his own legendary ancestor it is inconceivable that he should not make the connection if it existed.

That's not to say that the Last Hero wasn't one of the many other Brandons

[WeaselPie]

Hey Voice, I stumbled across this connection yesterday while looking into something else entirely

I don't know your stance on the World Book, Flagons, but keeping in mind what I just commented above, this seems to confirm the Last Hero's name was Brandon:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

Of course, the tale is cut off before the good stuff, but you can see here that Bran the Builder has done exactly what the Last Hero is said to have done.

Jon ACoK

"I found drawings of the faces in the trees, and a book about the tongue of the children of the forest . . . works that even the Citadel doesn't have, scrolls from old Valyria, counts of the seasons written by maesters dead a thousand years . . . " (Sam)

World Book

It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

The scroll is the interesting thing. Even if you put aside whether or not BtB built the Hightower, we know that since the Wall was not yet raised and the Maester's Library at Castle Black did not exist, the scroll was housed elsewhere.

A tenuous but interesting notion that BtB got the scroll from the Hightowers.

[Black Crow]

Interesting catch. We're told right at the beginning that there have been an awful lot of Brandons. Perhaps there's a reason.

Like the new avatar by the way.

[WeaselPie]

Interesting catch. We're told right at the beginning that there have been an awful lot of Brandons. Perhaps there's a reason.

Like the new avatar by the way.

yes, the whole "stuff the citadel doesnt even have!" line is interesting for a lot of reasons. I always thought the CotF translation scroll might be a breadcrumb.

ty, it suits me lol.

and thanks for your wise response over on my Lyanna /= TOJ thread

[Black Crow]

...and thanks for your wise response over on my Lyanna /= TOJ thread

I have to confess to being appalled at the hysteria which greeted your OP - no other word is adequate to describe it.

[Matthew.]

There's definitely something going on with the Firstmen Blood however.

There is, and that's not really what I was trying to get at. My core complaint is with the very specific statement on the first page that fathers can only pass on physical inheritance, but that magic comes from the mother--I'm saying that no such rule exists for the Targs, and is essentially unverifiable (and unnecessary) for everyone else.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I think much depends on how we define obvious. Is R+L=J too obvious to be true...?

It's not too obvious to be true. But it is certainly too obvious to accept without challenge. And there are better, less obvious solutions built into the story for those persistent enough to seek them out.

[Matthew.]

I've always taken that story of BtB learning the True Tongue as an allegory for him learning how to become a greenseer. :dunno:

[Black Crow]

I've always taken that story of BtB learning the True Tongue as an allegory for him learning how to become a greenseer. :dunno:

Indeed and as I suggested a couple of heresies ago, given the nature of the speech sounds, I'm of the view that it was learned through a telepathic link derived from or intimately connected with the skinchanging magic which ultimately is the foundation of greenseeing.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I have to confess to being appalled at the hysteria which greeted your OP - no other word is adequate to describe it.

:agree: Appalled, though not surprised. I've received similar responses to questioning standard doctrines of "the TOJ."