The Fate of Craster's Sons

[DarkSister1001]

Gilly's son is not at the Wall....she and the baby are with Sam in Oldtown, with the plan being to send Gilly/baby to Horn Hill.

Mance's son & Gilly's were switched. Gilly took Mance's son as her own to Oldtown. Her son remains at the Wall.

I almost look at it in an military sense. The WW have the power to reanimate wights, who are basically foot soldiers. Let's say it does turn out that Crasters sons are being made into WW somehow and not simply wights or sacrifices, etc. They can add foot soldiers all day long but the more they add the more generals they will need to lead them. They may be making the sons into WW to lead them / control them, etc. also it seems that wights and WW are killed in different ways, so rather than just making all wights and leaving yourself vulnerable, to say dragon attacks, better to disversify.

I can see the need. EXCEPT that since we don't have ANY text that shows us a unnatural increase in growth rate the babies would be worthless. Craster had 19 wives total. Assuming he had the same number of sons that were given to the Others, that's not a large enough number, IMO, to make it worth it. Especially since some of them would only be babies or toddlers.

Given the similarities between the Others and Valyrians and their weapons it's reasonable to think that the Others are using the babies in blood magic to make their supernatural weapons like the way the Valyrians used blood magic to make VS. I don't think the mountains of connections between the two species and weapons can be ignored. Even in Qohor it was suspected that they were using blood magic (infants) to reforge VS.

[Buried Treasure]

The Others perhaps have some sense of humour, I have a have a vague memory of the one that fought Waymar laughing at him. It might be that they are amused at the notion of humans providing sacrifices to them, and have Craster a stay of education because why not? It was still Autumn and they probably weren't at full strength, and when the books started (around a year before Gilly gave birth?) there were still other wildling villages to prey upon so they didn't have to prioritise killing Craster.

I doubt the babies were being turned into Others; providing boy-children didn't matter, just sacrifices. When the cold started coming more often he didn't have enough children and sacrificed his stock to the same effect.

The best way to guess at the number of boys he exposed is to estimate his daughters and assume a roughly equal birthrate. He has 20ish wives, from old women to Gilly (probably just pas puberty and around 14, plus a bunch of children. Some of his wives will have died, but others wouldn't have been his daughters. If he has been at it for 40-odd years that is not nearly enough women for 99 daughters and the equivalent number of sons. Making a lot of assumptions I would guess around 40 boys is the high upper limit - and even then many would have died decades and were more likely to be taken by wolves or shadowcats than Others.

[grufolo]

They can re-animate dead into Wights, but they can't create their own kind.

Gilly's son is not at the Wall....she and the baby are with Sam in Oldtown, with the plan being to send Gilly/baby to Horn Hill.

On the first statement there is no proof, and if anything exists it's from the show episode "the children" where the opposite appears.

On the second statement, i think you're wrong. Gilly's son is at th wall because they swapped children with Val, so it's Mance's son who is with Sam and Gilly in Oldtown.

[DarkSister1001]

The Others perhaps have some sense of humour, I have a have a vague memory of the one that fought Waymar laughing at him. It might be that they are amused at the notion of humans providing sacrifices to them, and have Craster a stay of education because why not? It was still Autumn and they probably weren't at full strength, and when the books started (around a year before Gilly gave birth?) there were still other wildling villages to prey upon so they didn't have to prioritise killing Craster.

I doubt the babies were being turned into Others; providing boy-children didn't matter, just sacrifices. When the cold started coming more often he didn't have enough children and sacrificed his stock to the same effect.

The best way to guess at the number of boys he exposed is to estimate his daughters and assume a roughly equal birthrate. He has 20ish wives, from old women to Gilly (probably just pas puberty and around 14, plus a bunch of children. Some of his wives will have died, but others wouldn't have been his daughters. If he has been at it for 40-odd years that is not nearly enough women for 99 daughters and the equivalent number of sons. Making a lot of assumptions I would guess around 40 boys is the high upper limit - and even then many would have died decades and were more likely to be taken by wolves or shadowcats than Others.

40 Sons was my best guess too. And I think that's a little on the heavy side.

And yes, Will says that the Other said something in a tongue he didn't understand but that the tone was mocking. I would like to know what was said, probably something dickish.

Perhaps the seasons near the Wall slowed them down, but they would have still been to Craster's during the different seasons to collect the boys. It could be similar tot he way Mel is more powerful at the Wall. They have strength all through the seasons, but Winter is when they can get shit done.

[grufolo]

But I remember exactly 100 sons being mentioned... Not one less

[DarkSister1001]

But I remember exactly 100 sons being mentioned... Not one less

I would LOVE that quote. I spent months searching and couldn't find any numbers anywhere except that Craster had 19 wives.

[grufolo]

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster

Also

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2nmt3y/spoilers_all_the_number_of_crasters_sons_in_the/

[Buried Treasure]

That would seem to be show canon only then. Besides, anytime a nice round number is given it is almost certain to be bullshit, even Bonifer Hasty only had 86 in his Holy Hundred. As far as Craster goes, I think he would be even less likely to know how many children he has had then remember how many wives he had taken.

[DarkSister1001]

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster

Also

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2nmt3y/spoilers_all_the_number_of_crasters_sons_in_the/

The very first line of the reddit reads "The following includes "show spoilers" in that it includes information that is only in the show but not in the books" and the wiki link is also for the show. My theory is strictly books only.

That would seem to be show canon only then. Besides, anytime a nice round number is given it is almost certain to be bullshit, even Bonifer Hasty only had 86 in his Holy Hundred. As far as Craster goes, I think he would be even less likely to know how many children he has had then remember how many wives he had taken.

Funny you should mention round numbers. In the story of the 79 sentinels there's actual 80 in the ice (Lord Ryswell was added later) but they still call it the story of the 79 sentinels.

[DarkSister1001]

Well, as we know that dragonbone is not involved in VS, I'm going to have to disagree immediately.

I think the babies are very simple, its a blood sacrifice for the power to wake the dead. "Only death can pay for life"

MMD sacrificed Danys baby to raise Drogo, but he was catatonic, if the WW's combine this magic with warging or something similar then you have wights.

Edit: I would also like to point out that what the show did is impossible, there is no way a baby could survive being in the presence of a WW for long, let alone for like 500 miles to the lands of always winter.

Been thinking about this and all the resurrections we've seen thus far. Thoros didn't sacrifice in order to bring Beric back all those times (though he lost a part of himself each time). LM has an interesting thread on Cat & Beric being resurrected by the Old Gods. The Others could simply have the same ability, especially if they are another race of the FM or "gods" as some seem to think.

Couldn't simply the killing of people be the sacrifice to reanimate them to be able to control them?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

I loved the OP.

I agree that the babies are butchered and their blood is used in "icebinding" to create Others. That is the icy counterpart of shadowbinding with blood and life fire. The Others are ice made flesh. Craster has been lying to his wives to not draw their wrath. In fact, he was not exactly lying. The boys somehow turn into the Others but he kept the gruesome details to himself.

Of course, the TV show could not present the butchering of babies. So, they invented the icy touch.

Really? So that`s the line they can`t imply to be crossed. Best tell the whore who bore Roberts bastard in season 1

[LmL]

 

They can re-animate dead into Wights, but they can't create their own kind.  The Others are exclusive creatures from the Wights, and nobody truly knows how many there are, how they are created, if they breed, etc.

 

Gilly's son is not at the Wall....she and the baby are with Sam in Oldtown, with the plan being to send Gilly/baby to Horn Hill.

 

No, the babies were switched - that's why Gilly is upset. It's Mance's boy in Oldtown and Gilly and Craster's son at the Wall. 

And what's this about the Others always coming looking for Craster's sons? Hopefull that won't lead to an Other invasion of Catsle Black or anything...   :devil:

[LmL]

Hey DarkSister001, just finding this thread here. Very cool, although I am not sure if I agree or not (reserving judgement), I think your ideas are well presented and strongly supported... your argument makes sense, and I can't see any disqualifies for it. So nice job... 

I was wondering if you have considered that the Others' bones are milkglass, the same as Dawn. I'm sure you have... butI didn't see you mention it. I happen to think Dawn is the original Ice of House Stark, and although it clearly does not match with the Other's crystal swords, its close, and the oOthers's sword are also called "pale swords." Dawn is definitely an icy sword, symbolism wise. I wouldn't be surprised if ice magic went into it's forging. Maybe you temper a steel sword in a puddle of melted other or something, and it imbues the sword with ice magic? 

 

Voice of the First Men and I have wondered about a cold forging process that would be an inversion of fire forging. There's "cold forge" prominently featured in Jon's chamers in Castle Black, and Ghost even walks around it,  lays in front of it (iirc), etc. Ic magic seems lie a cold version of fire, not just passive ice. It burns and suffocates, etc. I think the forging of Dawn (hypothetical original Ice) may be tied in to the mystery of the Others's weapons. 

Now, one last thought: Craster's Son's and Warrior's sons. Now, this is predicated on the white walkers being Craster's Sons, but you still might find it relevant.

 

The Others have crystal swords, and they always appear at night, so their crystal swords, symbolically, appear against a field of black. The Others have mirror-like armor as well. Now here is the description of the Warrior's Sons of the Faith of the Seven:

 

In the Hall of Lamps, a dozen Warrior’s Sons awaited her coming. Rainbow cloaks hung down their backs, and the crystals that crested their greathelms glittered in the lamplight. Their armor was silver plate polished to a mirror sheen, but underneath, she knew, every man of them wore a hair shirt. Their kite shields all bore the same device: a crystal sword shining in the darkness, the ancient badge of those the smallfolk called Swords. (Cersei, ADWD)

 

 

 

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior’s Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon— or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him— did everything by sevens. The knights wore swordbelts striped in the seven colors of the Faith. Crystals adorned the pommels of their longswords and the crests of their greathelms. They carried kite shields of a style not common since the Conquest, displaying a device not seen in the Seven Kingdoms for centuries: a rainbow sword shining bright upon a field of darkness. Close to a hundred knights had already come forth to pledge their lives and swords to the Warrior’s Sons, Qyburn claimed, and more turned up every day. Drunk on the gods, the lot of them. Who would have thought the realm contained so many of them?

 

Most had been household knights and hedge knights, but a handful were of high birth; younger sons, petty lords, old men wanting to atone for the old sins. And then there was Lancel. She had thought Qyburn must be japing when he had told her that her mooncalf cousin had forsaken castle, lands, and wife and wandered back to the city to join the Noble and Puissant Order of the Warrior’s Sons, yet there he stood with the other pious fools.

 

Lastly, I should note that the Night's King was a warrior who knew no fear. He supposedly was sacrificing to the Others - the only other person who "sacrifices to the Others" is Craster, and he gives them his babies. Now, if he's doing that to make more WW, then we could assume the NK did the same. The NQ has skin as pale as the moon, and Craster's wives make "big cow eyes" at Ser Waymar when he came by (sacrificial cows are of course tied to the moon in mythology). The moon is mentioned with Lancel too, and of course the Others swords shine with moonlight.

 

So, the NK might have been the first warrior, making warrior's sons with crystal swords. But here's the thing - the Warrior's Sons are called "the swords." The NW are the "sword in the darkness" - so there's a tremendous amount of overlap here. Jon Snow represents Lightbringer (I'm sure you have read Schmendrick, right?), so he is a person and a sword both. So...

 

You're thinking the babies become swords, and most think they become Others... "Warrior's Sons," if you will... but they themselves are swords. Perhaps the sword is like an extension of the Other - there's no mention of Sam and Grenn seeing Ser Puddles sword lying on the ground. It must have melted too, right? Perhaps your theory and the consensus are both right. 

Parallel tot his is the idea of a V steel / dragonsteel sword with someone's spurt or ghost locked inside. And that's kind of suggested in a few places... Lightbringer, for example, has Nissa's blood, soul, strength, and courage go into the steel. HER SOUL WENT INTO THE STEEL. The ancient Ironborn are said to have possessed foul black weapons that drank the souls of those they slew. So, the idea is at least out there in ASOIAF land. I've read a few threes about the creation of V steel, and clearly it involves human sacrifice - what if the slain's essence goes into the sword? 

Readers of Moorcock are probably jumping up right now to say "Eric's Black sword was really a demon in disguise,' and Steven Erickson's Dragnipur, another black steel magic sword, has it's own little alt reality where those slain by the sword are confined. 

Anyway, see what you make of that... and again, very nice work here.  :thumbsup:

[Sly Wren]

The most logical explanation for the sacrificing of Craster’s son is a blood sacrifice.  And the most likely reason to spill the blood of the First Men by a group such as the Others would be for the forging of weapons and armor for the upcoming war, the way the Valyrians did to make their distinctive weapons. 

:agree:

Well done, DarkSister1001!

 

I do think the sons are becoming walkers (the women seem sure of that)--we've seen very few actual walkers. And the V6 prologue makes it clear they can perform mass killings and raisings of wights with just the cold. So, not sure they'd need an "army" of walkers. Just enough to control the cold and raisings. That's just my take.

 

But that aside--I love the idea of blood sacrifice also going into the Others' swords and how it parallels Valyrian steel. Can only be made by sacrificing something else. So, in that way, the ice/winter swords and fire swords are evenly matched.

 

We've seen a few blood sacrifices to get weapons--Dany for her dragons is the big one. Ned's being sacrificed and his sword sacrificed to get Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

 

Seems to me that there are traces saying that sacrificing someone else to get something might not go well--IE: Dany's seems not to be able to have children. Plus Oathkeeper, as we were discussing over on my thread--that weapon seems mixed-up. Again--it's alive and unhappy. And the family people that sacrificed Ned to get those weapons--not doing well.

 

But then we have a weapon like Dawn. A weapon you have to prove worthy to get--self-sacrifice. As you noted in your OP, it looks like the Others' swords. But Dawn gleams in the sunlight. It's superior to the Others' swords. Am wondering if that has something to do with how it is wielded--by one who sacrifices for others vs. sacrificing others to get it. Making Dawn the sword to use against the Others.

[DarkSister1001]

 

Hey DarkSister001, just finding this thread here. Very cool, although I am not sure if I agree or not (reserving judgement), I think your ideas are well presented and strongly supported... your argument makes sense, and I can't see any disqualifies for it. So nice job... 
 

 

 

 Thanks!  Fair enough, all I ask is for an open mind to entertain the idea  :)

 

 

I was wondering if you have considered that the Others' bones are milkglass, the same as Dawn. I'm sure you have... butI didn't see you mention it. I happen to think Dawn is the original Ice of House Stark, and although it clearly does not match with the Other's crystal swords, its close, and the oOthers's sword are also called "pale swords." Dawn is definitely an icy sword, symbolism wise. I wouldn't be surprised if ice magic went into it's forging. Maybe you temper a steel sword in a puddle of melted other or something, and it imbues the sword with ice magic? 

 

I did, but I intentionally steered clear so as not to muddy the waters or dis track myself.  I planned on going back to it later but haven't had the chance yet.  And I agree regarding Dawn /Original Ice. 

 

 

 

Voice of the First Men and I have wondered about a cold forging process that would be an inversion of fire forging. There's "cold forge" prominently featured in Jon's chamers in Castle Black, and Ghost even walks around it,  lays in front of it (iirc), etc. Ic magic seems lie a cold version of fire, not just passive ice. It burns and suffocates, etc. I think the forging of Dawn (hypothetical original Ice) may be tied in to the mystery of the Others's weapons. 
 

 

I didn't make that connection before.  I took it as being just cold from non use since Donnel is gone and that it's regular mentioning was to let us know that Jon was wearing mail when he was stabbed.  I like that it's more than that.  His writing is like an onion (if you're a Shrek) or parfait (if you're a Donkey).

 

 

Now, one last thought: Craster's Son's and Warrior's sons. Now, this is predicated on the white walkers being Craster's Sons, but you still might find it relevant.

 

The Others have crystal swords, and they always appear at night, so their crystal swords, symbolically, appear against a field of black. The Others have mirror-like armor as well. Now here is the description of the Warrior's Sons of the Faith of the Seven:

 

In the Hall of Lamps, a dozen Warrior’s Sons awaited her coming. Rainbow cloaks hung down their backs, and the crystals that crested their greathelms glittered in the lamplight. Their armor was silver plate polished to a mirror sheen, but underneath, she knew, every man of them wore a hair shirt. Their kite shields all bore the same device: a crystal sword shining in the darkness, the ancient badge of those the smallfolk called Swords. (Cersei, ADWD)

 

 

 

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior’s Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon— or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him— did everything by sevens. The knights wore swordbelts striped in the seven colors of the Faith. Crystals adorned the pommels of their longswords and the crests of their greathelms. They carried kite shields of a style not common since the Conquest, displaying a device not seen in the Seven Kingdoms for centuries: a rainbow sword shining bright upon a field of darkness. Close to a hundred knights had already come forth to pledge their lives and swords to the Warrior’s Sons, Qyburn claimed, and more turned up every day. Drunk on the gods, the lot of them. Who would have thought the realm contained so many of them?

 

Most had been household knights and hedge knights, but a handful were of high birth; younger sons, petty lords, old men wanting to atone for the old sins. And then there was Lancel. She had thought Qyburn must be japing when he had told her that her mooncalf cousin had forsaken castle, lands, and wife and wandered back to the city to join the Noble and Puissant Order of the Warrior’s Sons, yet there he stood with the other pious fools.

 

 

That's bloody brilliant!  Bless you for that insight.  I had always had a nagging in the back of my mind when Cat or anyone else would talk about the crystals, etc. but could never develop the nag into anything more.  It is interesting that Qyburn is delivering the information to her.  As he's currently involved in necromancy while the High Sparrow resurrects an old sect that may partner or be fully entangled with a group that also uses necromancy. 

 

 

Lastly, I should note that the Night's King was a warrior who knew no fear. He supposedly was sacrificing to the Others - the only other person who "sacrifices to the Others" is Craster, and he gives them his babies. Now, if he's doing that to make more WW, then we could assume the NK did the same. The NQ has skin as pale as the moon, and Craster's wives make "big cow eyes" at Ser Waymar when he came by (sacrificial cows are of course tied to the moon in mythology). The moon is mentioned with Lancel too, and of course the Others swords shine with moonlight.

 

So, the NK might have been the first warrior, making warrior's sons with crystal swords. But here's the thing - the Warrior's Sons are called "the swords." The NW are the "sword in the darkness" - so there's a tremendous amount of overlap here. Jon Snow represents Lightbringer (I'm sure you have read Schmendrick, right?), so he is a person and a sword both. So...

 

I have read it and I'm mostly onboard (I tend to be a bit non-committal). 

 

It would seem that this is just the climax of a war that's been raging for years and every other revolt, rebellion and "war" have been nothing but skirmishes that have kept swords and skills sharp.  The CoTF/Old Gods are arming themselves with Bran, Jon, et al and the Fot7 are gathering their warriors.  Very cool stuff.  Thank you so much for your thoughts.  I cannot wait to see this all unfold!

[DarkSister1001]

:agree:

Well done, DarkSister1001!

 

I do think the sons are becoming walkers (the women seem sure of that)--we've seen very few actual walkers. And the V6 prologue makes it clear they can perform mass killings and raisings of wights with just the cold. So, not sure they'd need an "army" of walkers. Just enough to control the cold and raisings. That's just my take.

 

But that aside--I love the idea of blood sacrifice also going into the Others' swords and how it parallels Valyrian steel. Can only be made by sacrificing something else. So, in that way, the ice/winter swords and fire swords are evenly matched.

 

We've seen a few blood sacrifices to get weapons--Dany for her dragons is the big one. Ned's being sacrificed and his sword sacrificed to get Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

 

Seems to me that there are traces saying that sacrificing someone else to get something might not go well--IE: Dany's seems not to be able to have children. Plus Oathkeeper, as we were discussing over on my thread--that weapon seems mixed-up. Again--it's alive and unhappy. And the family people that sacrificed Ned to get those weapons--not doing well.

 

 

 Thanks!

 

 

But then we have a weapon like Dawn. A weapon you have to prove worthy to get--self-sacrifice. As you noted in your OP, it looks like the Others' swords. But Dawn gleams in the sunlight. It's superior to the Others' swords. Am wondering if that has something to do with how it is wielded--by one who sacrifices for others vs. sacrificing others to get it. Making Dawn the sword to use against the Others.

 That's a very interesting take on it.  There's so much sacrifice in the story.  Be it for a weapon, Cat sticking with Robb instead of going back to WF, Ned for Sansa's life, etc.  You could define a person by the purpose of their sacrifice and I like the idea that they'd be judged that way.  I don't want to go to far into here as it seems better suited for your topic.  :)

[LmL]

Thanks!  Fair enough, all I ask is for an open mind to entertain the idea  :)
 
I did, but I intentionally steered clear so as not to muddy the waters or dis track myself.  I planned on going back to it later but haven't had the chance yet.  And I agree regarding Dawn /Original Ice. 
 
I didn't make that connection before.  I took it as being just cold from non use since Donnel is gone and that it's regular mentioning was to let us know that Jon was wearing mail when he was stabbed.  I like that it's more than that.  His writing is like an onion (if you're a Shrek) or parfait (if you're a Donkey).

Yeah, I can't count the number of times I've read over a quote that I have already wrung a ton of meaning out of, or that others have wrung out, and then all the sudden you see a new layer of import - it's pretty dang impressive, no doubt.

The Cold Forge was Voice's observation, which we then discussed back-channel. It's one of those metaphors you have to squint a bit to see - I'm not sold, but it is tantalizing, given what Martin is going with his ice magic. There a couple scenes where the ice crystals blow like glass shards (think of a forge pounding dragon glass or milkglass) and wights are rising, etc. it's been w hole since I looked at it, but there you go. In real life cold forging is a thing - it's basically just hammering with no heat. But I think Martin's cold forging (if that's indeed a thing) would be more like an icy version of a fire forge, akin to the idea that Ice Dragons breathe cold. If this is the case then we immediately think of original Ice (Dawn), the sword of the King of Winter (presumably). We are left to figure out how you forge a sword of milkglass / Others material / ice magic, and he cold forging idea seems like not a bad solution.

I also wonder about Ned dipping the bloody black sword in the cold black pond, almost like a ritual... Is this repeating some significant action in the past? Was original Ice tempered in that pond? Is there actual ice magic in the pond that can imbue a sword? I like tempering a sword in an Other or an Other puddle, but I don't know how you'd pull that off. The cold black pond seems significant.... I've even wondered if it isn't a melted ice dragon (probably a cracked idea there), since they melt into puddles when slain (supposedly). That would be an opposite of V steel, forged in dragon fire. How about tempered in ice dragon pond?

That's bloody brilliant!  Bless you for that insight.  I had always had a nagging in the back of my mind when Cat or anyone else would talk about the crystals, etc. but could never develop the nag into anything more.  It is interesting that Qyburn is delivering the information to her.  As he's currently involved in necromancy while the High Sparrow resurrects an old sect that may partner or be fully entangled with a group that also uses necromancy. 

Why thank you good ser, I was pretty stocked when I put that together. It's one where clearly, the similarities aren't meant to be taken literally, as if to suggest that the Warriors Sons are Others or used to be Others back in the day. No, this seems like a symbolic parallel intended to sneak us clues about the Others. I was going to ask you - what do you think Martin's intent is here in creating this parallel? One implication could be the Warrior's Sons / "NK making Others" parallel, and considering your OP here made me notice that the W Sons are called the swords, which as I said could indicate that the Others's swords are a part of them, and are created by the same baby stealing ritual or whatever. But what else might it be saying? I haven't had time to pursue this line of thought all the way.
 

I have read it and I'm mostly onboard (I tend to be a bit non-committal). 
 
It would seem that this is just the climax of a war that's been raging for years and every other revolt, rebellion and "war" have been nothing but skirmishes that have kept swords and skills sharp.  The CoTF/Old Gods are arming themselves with Bran, Jon, et al and the Fot7 are gathering their warriors.  Very cool stuff.  Thank you so much for your thoughts.  I cannot wait to see this all unfold!

Schmendrick was the essay that inspired me to go big and go hard on my very first astronomy essay. Love that guy, wherever he is. It's a huge component of the Lightbringer myth, the procreation element. Childbirth is the ultimate sacrifice, offered up in exchange to bring new life into the world. Back in the day childbirth death was such a big risk - 25% died in childbirth in antiquity, iirc - that any time a woman got pregnant, she was really risking her life and had to be willing to do so to get pregnant (and of course there rape and forced marriages also, needs be said). The idea of AA reborn is really about childbirth, on a certain level - every child has something of their parents reborn in them.

I believe this is why George is doing so much with Targ deformed babies and mothers of Ataris who die in childbirth (Tyrion, Jon, and Dany's mothers all three, which I absolutely take as confirmation that all three are Targs).

The song is all about harmony, balance of opposites, I'm sure most will agree. The disharmony crept in during the Long Night (or slammed in, as my theory goes)m and no, it's never been resolved. The world we are living in in the main story has been shaped by this disharmony and other events of the Dawn Age.... The characters are still grappling with it. This is one reason I have hope for a decent amount of reveal as far as the deep mysteries - how are the Others created (if they are created), what caused the Long Night, etc. I'm really hoping for a weirwood flashback which shows fiery meteors falling from the sky - I don't think it's a stretch. Fingers crossed. ;)

So glad I could help, when I pop into a thread to drop a bunch of quotes that I think are relevant, I never know if people will appreciate or be like "who's this guy filling up the comments of my theory with a bunch of quotes?" So I am quite pleased that you found them helpful. Let me know what you think about the Crasters Sons Warriors Sons thing...

[DarkSister1001]

Yeah, I can't count the number of times I've read over a quote that I have already wrung a ton of meaning out of, or that others have wrung out, and then all the sudden you see a new layer of import - it's pretty dang impressive, no doubt.
 

 

I’m starting full re-read #5 (I think, not counting my participation in the Bran Re-read, theory research or desire to just pick up the book and jump around a little); I’m only on Dany #2 in GoT and I still can’t believe how much more I find!  I know GRRM recently said “they’re just words” but I think he’s just being humble.  Or perhaps to a mind that works like his does he may be doing some of these things subconsciously.  Absolutely impressive. 

 

The Cold Forge was Voice's observation, which we then discussed back-channel. It's one of those metaphors you have to squint a bit to see - I'm not sold, but it is tantalizing, given what Martin is going with his ice magic. There a couple scenes where the ice crystals blow like glass shards (think of a forge pounding dragon glass or milkglass) and wights are rising, etc. it's been w hole since I looked at it, but there you go. In real life cold forging is a thing - it's basically just hammering with no heat. But I think Martin's cold forging (if that's indeed a thing) would be more like an icy version of a fire forge, akin to the idea that Ice Dragons breathe cold. If this is the case then we immediately think of original Ice (Dawn), the sword of the King of Winter (presumably). We are left to figure out how you forge a sword of milkglass / Others material / ice magic, and he cold forging idea seems like not a bad solution.

 

The blowing ice crystals have always fascinated me.  Not only does it create stunning imagery (so much so that I get cold  sitting outside reading in the 120 degree desert heat) it opens the door to the possibility you described.  I read his Ice Dragon when it came out and LOVED it.  I know that he (or was it Linda/Ran?) said it wasn’t part of this series but I can see there’s at least some connections.  If VS is forged in dragonflame and Ice Dragons are part of Plaentos than ipso facto Ice Dragons are instrumental in forging WS. 

 

I NEED a dragon in the North.  Either under WF creating the hot springs or in the Wall.  I hadn't considered one as a puddle feeding the cool pool under the heart tree.  That's good stuff.  Could also be a puddle from the previous defeat of the NK/King of Winter.  The one Sam slayed melted.  Maybe that's why it's Winter Fell and that the Heart Tree is the center of WF? 

 

 

I also wonder about Ned dipping the bloody black sword in the cold black pond, almost like a ritual... Is this repeating some significant action in the past? Was original Ice tempered in that pond? Is there actual ice magic in the pond that can imbue a sword? I like tempering a sword in an Other or an Other puddle, but I don't know how you'd pull that off. The cold black pond seems significant.... I've even wondered if it isn't a melted ice dragon (probably a cracked idea there), since they melt into puddles when slain (supposedly). That would be an opposite of V steel, forged in dragon fire. How about tempered in ice dragon pond?

 

This is definitely ritualistic but I do not know if Ned does that intentionally or not.  He never planned to be Lord of WF so I doubt Lord Rickard pulled him aside and showed him what a Lord Stark does in various situations. 

Though he may have seen his father doing the same thing and just picked up the habit. 

 

I like to think that his time in the Eyrie away from other Starks and the Old Gods gave him a deeper appreciation of all things Northern.  I think he was 8 when he left WF?  Aside from the Tourney at HH I don’t think he mentions seeing his family again.  Brandon and his dad died in KL and then Lyanna was next seen dying.  I’m getting off topic, but my point is that an 8 year-old that was never meant to rule and didn’t see his family for almost 10 years probably had little grooming in what would be expected of him as Lord of WF.  So his actions in the GW to cleanse himself and clean Ice were probably instinctual. 

 

 

Why thank you good ser, I was pretty stocked when I put that together. It's one where clearly, the similarities aren't meant to be taken literally, as if to suggest that the Warriors Sons are Others or used to be Others back in the day. No, this seems like a symbolic parallel intended to sneak us clues about the Others. I was going to ask you - what do you think Martin's intent is here in creating this parallel? One implication could be the Warrior's Sons / "NK making Others" parallel, and considering your OP here made me notice that the W Sons are called the swords, which as I said could indicate that the Others's swords are a part of them, and are created by the same baby stealing ritual or whatever. But what else might it be saying? I haven't had time to pursue this line of thought all the way.

 

I’m in the same boat, I need to dwell on it a bit.  My knee-jerk reaction is that GRRM is setting up a holy war.  There are certainly some present day social undertones in the Song and almost every war in recored history has been about religion in some form or fashion. 

 

Those of the Faith seem to have no regard for the Old Gods.  Both sides seem to be amassing and gearing up.  Oddly, the World Book describes the Others as possibly another tribe of people simply put out by territorial disputes.  If that’s the case I would imagine that they’d be worshippers of the Old Gods.  BUT using necromancy so far has only been seen in connection to the Red God.  When Bran whispers to Ned via the WW BR warns him not to try and “call him back” which always seemed like a warning against resurrection to me.  Perhaps the upcoming battle with be 1:1:1, the battle of 3 armies/faiths. 

 

 

Schmendrick was the essay that inspired me to go big and go hard on my very first astronomy essay. Love that guy, wherever he is. It's a huge component of the Lightbringer myth, the procreation element. Childbirth is the ultimate sacrifice, offered up in exchange to bring new life into the world. Back in the day childbirth death was such a big risk - 25% died in childbirth in antiquity, iirc - that any time a woman got pregnant, she was really risking her life and had to be willing to do so to get pregnant (and of course there rape and forced marriages also, needs be said). The idea of AA reborn is really about childbirth, on a certain level - every child has something of their parents reborn in them.

 

I LOVE your Astronomy essays and kudos for the nod from astronomers.  And I wholeheartedly agree with your birth and rebirth explanation. 

 

 I believe this is why George is doing so much with Targ deformed babies and mothers of Ataris who die in childbirth (Tyrion, Jon, and Dany's mothers all three, which I absolutely take as confirmation that all three are Targs).

 

I agree.  That is the single most important clue (to me) that Tyrion is a Targ.  But there are still some other things I need to reconcile myself to in order to put my full trust in it. 

 

 

The song is all about harmony, balance of opposites, I'm sure most will agree. The disharmony crept in during the Long Night (or slammed in, as my theory goes)m and no, it's never been resolved. The world we are living in in the main story has been shaped by this disharmony and other events of the Dawn Age.... The characters are still grappling with it. This is one reason I have hope for a decent amount of reveal as far as the deep mysteries - how are the Others created (if they are created), what caused the Long Night, etc. I'm really hoping for a weirwood flashback which shows fiery meteors falling from the sky - I don't think it's a stretch. Fingers crossed.

 

Absolutely.  I think I am more excited for a Bran/WW chapter in the WOW than anything.  Of course Jon will be in at least one of those (via Ghost).  It’s definitely about harmony and balance.  I was watching Legend with my kiddo a few weeks ago and noticed the opening scrolling text described how light and dark cannot exist without one another.  Love it so much I had to add it to my sig line. 

 

 

So glad I could help, when I pop into a thread to drop a bunch of quotes that I think are relevant, I never know if people will appreciate or be like "who's this guy filling up the comments of my theory with a bunch of quotes?" So I am quite pleased that you found them helpful. Let me know what you think about the Crasters Sons Warriors Sons thing...

 

Not at all!  I’ve been out of the literature and reading game for a while and trying to get back in.  ASoIaF was not only my introduction to fantasy and graphic novels, but it rekindled my passion for literature; something I didn’t realize I missed so much.  I love getting all the different ideas and thoughts, particularly from astute readers and theorists like you. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I admit I skimmed a bit but it sounds like the basic premise is that Craster's sons are used as the blood sacrifice/requisite soul to make Other blades in the same way that dragon-blooded folks were used to make Valyrian steel. (PS if you want more to back up your "anthropomorphized VS" argument, the way Lyn Corbray talks about Lady Forlorn is pretty perfect.)

If so I would say that's a very legit theory. My only hesitation is that everything about the Others seems to be made of magical ice, not just their blades or armor. When pierced by dragonglass the whole Other melts. Sorry if you already addressed that upthread.

My going theory at the moment is that the Others are ice elementals in the same way that dragons are fire elementals (fire made flesh) and that both kinds of elementals (like Valyrian blades) need a human soul to animate them. So Craster's son's souls are in the Others rather than specifically in their swords.

But I could be wrong. Others could simply be an ice-based species, cold forging weapons with souls. I wouldn't be shocked to find out you're right. :-)

 

[DarkSister1001]

12 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I admit I skimmed a bit but it sounds like the basic premise is that Craster's sons are used as the blood sacrifice/requisite soul to make Other blades in the same way that dragon-blooded folks were used to make Valyrian steel. (PS if you want more to back up your "anthropomorphized VS" argument, the way Lyn Corbray talks about Lady Forlorn is pretty perfect.)

If so I would say that's a very legit theory. My only hesitation is that everything about the Others seems to be made of magical ice, not just their blades or armor. When pierced by dragonglass the whole Other melts. Sorry if you already addressed that upthread.

My going theory at the moment is that the Others are ice elementals in the same way that dragons are fire elementals (fire made flesh) and that both kinds of elementals (like Valyrian blades) need a human soul to animate them. So Craster's son's souls are in the Others rather than specifically in their swords.

But I could be wrong. Others could simply be an ice-based species, cold forging weapons with souls. I wouldn't be shocked to find out you're right. :-)

 

Thanks, yeah it's a bit wordy.  Me likey the quotes.  I'll have to look that over, it's been forever since I wrote up this.  I've often wondered if their entire body wasn't covered in some sort of suite/armor so they could survive the warmer (well, warmer than their used to) temperatures.  The biggest thing for me was the smith's in Qohor using babies to make VS and then these babies just go missing after they're sacrificed. 

I went back and forth on the ice and fire elementals.  The dragons are fire made flesh, but they belong to the Targaryens/Valyrians.  If the Others are ice made flesh then who to they belong too?  Not that that is a necessity but you see where I'm going with that. 

ETA:  Would be a whole lot easier to explain if we had some mutha truckin ice dragons!