The Fate of Craster's Sons

[StarkofWinterfell]

8 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey, there's a lot of good theories out there, it's hard to know which ones catch people's attention and why. I did go check out your impact crater / God's Eye theory though, that's right up my alley. Out of curiosity, and a love of good theories, which one of yours should I read next? What is your magnum opus?

 

My two favorites right now are Ancient Aliens: ASOIAF Edition and First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Valyrians, Ironborn: Separate Species?

And of those, the first one intrigues me the most. I argue that the God on Earth was an alien in the sense that he came from outer space. Sometimes I just have weird thoughts.

[LmL]

38 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

My two favorites right now are Ancient Aliens: ASOIAF Edition and First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Valyrians, Ironborn: Separate Species?

And of those, the first one intrigues me the most. I argue that the God on Earth was an alien in the sense that he came from outer space. Sometimes I just have weird thoughts.

Right on brother I'll check them out for sure! Have you read (or listened to) any of mine, by chance? Alien comet space rock is a close as you can get to actual aliens without doing actual aliens, and weird black space rock is one of my main areas of focus.

[StarkofWinterfell]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Right on brother I'll check them out for sure! Have you read (or listened to) any of mine, by chance? Alien comet space rock is a close as you can get to actual aliens without doing actual aliens, and weird black space rock is one of my main areas of focus.

Yeah I am very much a fan! I like to find actual explanations for things that happen in ASOIAF instead of explaining it all away as "magic." And so far you've been best able to come up with something plausible regarding the Long Night.

I know that is your most recognizable one, but do you have any I should check out?

[Arry'sFleas]

 

On 01/05/2016 at 5:07 AM, Sly Wren said:

The walkers kill Waymar and then he rises as a wight. . . seems more like their presence allows his rising vs. cleaning it up

 

Re the white blood cells cleaning up infections, i just thought that was a nice parallel to our world. But no, i do not have textual evidence for this taking place in the HF.

 

 

The mocking WW who killed Waymar was located just where the 8 wildlings died a very sudden death with no indication of a fight. So my guess he did not kill them. But he was near by.

The mocking WW did not seem to have an intention to kill Waymar but 'danced' with him nevertheless and eventually wounded him. I believe (for now at least!) this wound is what caused Waymar to turn eventually into a wight.

If the wight disease is viral in origin then it can be caught by breathing the 'deadly' mist or contact with the deadly ice, as i think they both have the same source.

 

On 01/05/2016 at 5:07 AM, Sly Wren said:

A gaggle? A babble? A yammering of threads?

I like babble, it has a nice rhythm to it...what about a 'blah-blah'?

 

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Arry'sFleas said:

The mocking WW who killed Waymar was located just where the 8 wildlings died a very sudden death with no indication of a fight. So my guess he did not kill them. But he was near by.

So, are you thinking they dies from the cold winds rising? Like we see elsewhere in the novels? 

1 hour ago, Arry'sFleas said:

The mocking WW did not seem to have an intention to kill Waymar but 'danced' with him nevertheless and eventually wounded him. I believe (for now at least!) this wound is what caused Waymar to turn eventually into a wight.

Perhaps. But once the Other examines Waymar's sword, they don't hold back. They seems to enjoy stabbing him. And he is stabbed through they eye. 

Or are you thinking he didn't die, but was changed regardless?

1 hour ago, Arry'sFleas said:

If the wight disease is viral in origin then it can be caught by breathing the 'deadly' mist or contact with the deadly ice, as i think they both have the same source.

I have not heard this idea before--it's intriguing. But what to do with the fact that Jafer Flowers and Thistle and Waymar and all the rest seem really, really dead?

1 hour ago, Arry'sFleas said:

I like babble, it has a nice rhythm to it...what about a 'blah-blah'?

HA! "blah blah" it is! 

[Arry'sFleas]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

So, are you thinking they dies from the cold winds rising? Like we see elsewhere in the novels? 

yes in a way, my current belief is they die of CO2 exposure (I have some theories on where it may come from and I also found an extensive discussion on this topic in Heresy 73); remember that both Will and Sam saw sinks and deep holes on the HF's floor. The CO2 may be escaping (or being pushed?) out of these holes being extremely cold ...and viral.

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Perhaps. But once the Other examines Waymar's sword, they don't hold back. They seems to enjoy stabbing him. And he is stabbed through they eye. 

Or are you thinking he didn't die, but was changed regardless?

correct but by then Waymar is most likely already dead anyway, ' A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye'.

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I have not heard this idea before--it's intriguing. But what to do with the fact that Jafer Flowers and Thistle and Waymar and all the rest seem really, really dead?

Good question. Why do you think the wildlings burn the dead? to stop them from rising, right? it destroys the bones (and the marrow inside them).

So in this world, it seems that no matter how one dies, either instantly frozen (or gassed) or butchered, there is a likely-hood that the corpse will rise or can be raised. Is there a time limit? don't know but it reminds me of Jon's experiment with the 2 corpses he stashed for a rainy day.

Waymar was not dead long, Thistle seemed to have been risen immediately, Jafer and Othor already had blue eyes when Ghost/NW found them, Small Paul was speared by the WW's sword 'its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of Paul's mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss '...just like Waymar.

I imagine the wights are 'not quite dead', with a few red blood cells still kicking in the brain, enabling the 'seeing' (or the skinchanging), and some in the bone marrow, enabling the memory ('the bones remember').

 

 

[Sly Wren]

On May 3, 2016 at 1:21 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

yes in a way, my current belief is they die of CO2 exposure (I have some theories on where it may come from and I also found an extensive discussion on this topic in Heresy 73); remember that both Will and Sam saw sinks and deep holes on the HF's floor. The CO2 may be escaping (or being pushed?) out of these holes being extremely cold ...and viral.

Maybe. But it really seems like it is cold. Weaponized cold. Like the dragons are weaponized fire. Unnatural. Going beyond nature via magic.

But your idea his might be similar to @Voice's miasma theory.

On May 3, 2016 at 1:21 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

correct but by then Waymar is most likely already dead anyway, ' A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye'.

So, transformed like a morghul blade can in Tolkien?

Hmmm, maybe. But Waymar's sword breaks on the Other's sword. Weimar screams. His own sword shatters into his eyes and Will sees blood coming from between Waymar's fingers. Then the Others come forward and start stabbing:

Quote

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles. Game, Prologue.

Sounds like Wyamar was alive and in pain from his own sword shards and then the Others played stab the watchman. Like they really wanted to kill him. And enjoyed doing it.

Seems like Waymar was himself until they stabbed him.

On May 3, 2016 at 1:21 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

So in this world, it seems that no matter how one dies, either instantly frozen (or gassed) or butchered, there is a likely-hood that the corpse will rise or can be raised. Is there a time limit? don't know but it reminds me of Jon's experiment with the 2 corpses he stashed for a rainy day.

Agreed--and I am now realizing Jon never got enough info from his experiments. Am now wondering if, once he rises, the Watch will let him play scientist for a while. Or if they will freak out and smash his lab.

On May 3, 2016 at 1:21 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

I imagine the wights are 'not quite dead', with a few red blood cells still kicking in the brain, enabling the 'seeing' (or the skinchanging), and some in the bone marrow, enabling the memory ('the bones remember').

Possible. And this might fit with the OP ( @DarkSister1001--sorry if I'm going too far afield)--something of life force and memory seems to remain in the bones in world. @Evolett has some strong writing on this subject. 

But it does seem like the body can be dead and the bones still have some life. . . 

But that life could be what enables the seeing, as you say. Almost how the weirwoods still have some power even when cut from the tree.

[Arry'sFleas]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But it really seems like it is cold. Weaponized cold. Like the dragons are weaponized fire. Unnatural. Going beyond nature via magic

Absolutely; and it is cold. CO2 is solid at -80 C, so having a block of that around with a drop of magic would be enough. It becomes gas passed that point, enough to freeze anyone too...the white mist. Science tells us that CO2 ice is found in geothermal sites (and in comets) and the story tells us that obsidian (volcanic glass) is found in the LoaW.

I see a science fiction touch in this set up

I think that whoever is manipulating this resource must be hanging around Craster's to pick up the sons and then disappear with them. Perhaps even underneath his low hill?

[Sly Wren]

On May 5, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

Absolutely; and it is cold. CO2 is solid at -80 C, so having a block of that around with a drop of magic would be enough. It becomes gas passed that point, enough to freeze anyone too...the white mist. Science tells us that CO2 ice is found in geothermal sites (and in comets) and the story tells us that obsidian (volcanic glass) is found in the LoaW.

I see a science fiction touch in this set up

Very possible.

I do have reservations re: Martin's saying that magic is, well, magic. Not necessarily a recipe that can always be recreated. Which is one of the reasons Dany can wake her dragons. Magic is back. Yes, she found the "right" procedure, but it worked because magic is "back."

Makes me think that the killer cold and the raising wights aren't just science or formulas, but innately magical. More than just a drop.

That said, Martin is a sci-fi writer, so, no question this could work.

It may even tie into the OP and the foreign of the swords. @DarkSister1001 --what do you think of the idea of the of the swords being largely sci-fi driven? Could that still fit with using Craster's boys to forge the swords?

On May 5, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

I think that whoever is manipulating this resource must be hanging around Craster's to pick up the sons and then disappear with them. Perhaps even underneath his low hill?

Or just in the wood.

So, if I'm reading you right, you're asserting that the Others do all this largely through science? 

[Arry'sFleas]

17 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

So, if I'm reading you right, you're asserting that the Others do all this largely through science?

no, not really.

I think there is a basis of science fiction behind the 'cold world' as imagined by Martin and of course fantasy behind the dragons.

The Others are using the natural elements around them to work their magic, same as the Children use obsidian/dragonglass to break the spell of this magic, or Dany uses a stone egg to hatch a dragon.

Unless Craster's sons are a white herring (and I am not sure that this is the author' style), then i agree they would be needed to somehow assist in providing 'life' to the spell-bound ice forms which are the WW.

I think the swords are the same as the rest of the WW, they are part of the spell-bound imagery. I have wondered why the WW have an 'armour'..do they need one? and they have 'no face: ' Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood.'.

Perhaps they don't need one, a well armed knight would have their face hidden behind a helm anyway.

It seems as if the WW are animated to look like something not foreign to those they approach. They don't look like monsters at all....but that leads to another discussion!

 

 

[DarkSister1001]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:08 AM, Ser Knute said:

Firstly I want to say lido's on the work you put into the OP, a lot of legwoek there.

Thanks!  It sure was.  I'm just getting back from a trip with the kiddo, bonding and shit, so bear with me as I play catch up. 

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:08 AM, Ser Knute said:

Anyway I got a little off the main topic, but my point is that it seems the Long Night wasn't Westeros-centric which should in turn make its cause less centric on Westeros happennings, even though our story-current impending LN is seeming Westeros centric, if that makes sense?

It does make sense.  I must admit, I'm not completely clear on the GEotD, I have read it a few times but I have had a hard time wrapping my brain around it, probably bc it's already so full of other things. 

 

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:08 AM, Ser Knute said:

I also find it interesting that in the tale of the Starks bringing down the Warg King that they put his sons to the sword as well as his beasts and Greenseers, but take his daughters (the women) as prizes, likely leading to offspring yes?

Oh yes.  And carrying on/strengthening the warg genetics. 

 

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:08 AM, Ser Knute said:

I do agree that they may indeed be using blood sacrifice to make their Ice weapons and that Craster's sons may serve that purpose but then what do we make of the NK?  Is he like some sort of expert ice sorcerer who is able to raise the dead (wights)?  How do we explain WW's?  Icy Greenseers for lack of a better term?

I'm of a mind that they were once a tribe of FM as the World Book suggests.  And with that blood line they would posses the possibility of being skinchangers.  It seems logical to me that perhaps they were the "bad boys", the Euron's of the FM and perhaps their strategy involved magic that other's saw as abominations, blood magic, and they were exiled for that.  I think the wight's are skinchanged. 

When Bran sees Ned in the Godwoods BR tells him not to seek to call him back, he doesn't say it's impossible, just don't do it.  I think that's very telling. 

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:08 AM, Ser Knute said:

It's interesting to me that the others were only defeated, not rendered extinct.   That then makes you wonder how the Battle for the Dawn played out does it not?  

Absolutely.  Why did they CotF not go all Reynes of Castamere on their asses?

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:08 AM, Ser Knute said:

Sorry I went all over the place but I just really have to wonder what compels the Others... is it the knowledge of eternity and sort of getting humans to respect the Earth and all its inhabitants or is it just territorial in nature?  Afterall they seem to hate all things warm!

No worries, love the discussion.  I am excited to learn more about them. 

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 11:12 AM, LmL said:

Have you read this from @Lord Martin?

 

 

Hello!  Not yet, but I'll add it to my queue.  I still have to finish your most recent Wordpress essay. 

@Sly Wren - I had a thought but I can't recall if we were discussing it here or on your Wolf Horn thread...the crypts in WF.  We've never seen the lower levels, who's to say the old KoW aren't enthroned in weirwood roots?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

24 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Thanks!  It sure was.  I'm just getting back from a trip with the kiddo, bonding and shit, so bear with me as I play catch up. 

It does make sense.  I must admit, I'm not completely clear on the GEotD, I have read it a few times but I have had a hard time wrapping my brain around it, probably bc it's already so full of other things. 

 

Oh yes.  And carrying on/strengthening the warg genetics. 

 

I'm of a mind that they were once a tribe of FM as the World Book suggests.  And with that blood line they would posses the possibility of being skinchangers.  It seems logical to me that perhaps they were the "bad boys", the Euron's of the FM and perhaps their strategy involved magic that other's saw as abominations, blood magic, and they were exiled for that.  I think the wight's are skinchanged. 

When Bran sees Ned in the Godwoods BR tells him not to seek to call him back, he doesn't say it's impossible, just don't do it.  I think that's very telling. 

Absolutely.  Why did they CotF not go all Reynes of Castamere on their asses?

No worries, love the discussion.  I am excited to learn more about them. 

Hello!  Not yet, but I'll add it to my queue.  I still have to finish your most recent Wordpress essay. 

@Sly Wren - I had a thought but I can't recall if we were discussing it here or on your Wolf Horn thread...the crypts in WF.  We've never seen the lower levels, who's to say the old KoW aren't enthroned in weirwood roots?

 

You gotta learn how pretend to be working on your phone. 

[DarkSister1001]

7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You gotta learn how pretend to be working on your phone. 

Haha!  I promise y'all don't want me participating in the thread while I'm sucking down margaritas. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Haha!  I promise y'all don't want me participating in the thread while I'm sucking down margaritas. 

I like the way you bond with the kids. 

[DarkSister1001]

15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I like the way you bond with the kids. 

Ha!  She's 16 and knows that after one I get loosey-goosey with the Skee Ball tokens. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

38 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Ha!  She's 16 and knows that after one I get loosey-goosey with the Skee Ball tokens. 

Hey, don't sweat it, I recall touring one European city as my wife drank her Arbor red from a sippy cup. 

[Sly Wren]

On May 10, 2016 at 9:28 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

 

@Sly Wren - I had a thought but I can't recall if we were discussing it here or on your Wolf Horn thread...the crypts in WF.  We've never seen the lower levels, who's to say the old KoW aren't enthroned in weirwood roots?

Nope! They are supposed to be collapsed.

And I would not be at all surprised to find a weirwood throne down there--assuming we every get down that far.

So, are you thinking they put the earliest Kings of Winter in the roots before they started using tombs? If not, the Winterfell heart trees roots grow into that hill. So, the roots might be entwined with the Kings of Winter anyway. Which might mean they are engaging with the weirwood consciousness.

Though @Voice harbors a theory that Lyanna is down there, speaking to her family through the Winterfell heart tree.

[DarkSister1001]

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Nope! They are supposed to be collapsed.

And I would not be at all surprised to find a weirwood throne down there--assuming we every get down that far.

So, are you thinking they put the earliest Kings of Winter in the roots before they started using tombs? If not, the Winterfell heart trees roots grow into that hill. So, the roots might be entwined with the Kings of Winter anyway. Which might mean they are engaging with the weirwood consciousness.

There's a reason we haven't seen the lower levels yet.  It's either collapsed and dangerous as we're told or there's something down there they shouldn't see and over the years the stories and excuses just morphed into what we're told.  

Winterfell is strong and only the areas in ruin are from neglect or purposefully destroyed are in ruin, like the broken tower.  I think the Starks, like the NW, forgot their history and purpose.  They eventually abandoned the lower levels, maybe they were full, and over the years the intrusive weirwood roots eroded the earth and caused the damage.  Maybe they were too much to maintain, like the Night Fort.  Maybe they were intentionally enthroned or accidentally just by tree growth over time.  Either way I say the weirwood can reach down there and that'll give Bran collective knowledge of all the past KoW and Lord's of WF.

ETA - There's also the Haunted Forest that has been left alone in places and is creeping closer to the Wall.  So why not an unchecked weirwood?

[LmL]

2 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

There's a reason we haven't seen the lower levels yet.  It's either collapsed and dangerous as we're told or there's something down there they shouldn't see and over the years the stories and excuses just morphed into what we're told.  

Winterfell is strong and only the areas in ruin are from neglect or purposefully destroyed are in ruin, like the broken tower.  I think the Starks, like the NW, forgot their history and purpose.  They eventually abandoned the lower levels, maybe they were full, and over the years the intrusive weirwood roots eroded the earth and caused the damage.  Maybe they were too much to maintain, like the Night Fort.  Maybe they were intentionally enthroned or accidentally just by tree growth over time.  Either way I say the weirwood can reach down there and that'll give Bran collective knowledge of all the past KoW and Lord's of WF.

ETA - There's also the Haunted Forest that has been left alone in places and is creeping closer to the Wall.  So why not an unchecked weirwood?

That makes perfect sense, since weirs are eternal and grow forever. Look at Bloodaven's cave - the roots are thicker than a giant's leg and have woven themselves all throughout the earth and rock. Winterfell's weirwood should be doing the same, down there somewhere in the dark. In a way, the bodies of the dead Starks are being fed to the weirwood. 

[DarkSister1001]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

That makes perfect sense, since weirs are eternal and grow forever. Look at Bloodaven's cave - the roots are thicker than a giant's leg and have woven themselves all throughout the earth and rock. Winterfell's weirwood should be doing the same, down there somewhere in the dark. In a way, the bodies of the dead Starks are being fed to the weirwood. 

Yup.  Have you read the knew Arianne chapter?