How Ice became Dawn

[LmL]

Couple suggestions...

Spring is coming.

Dawn is coming.

The dawn after the night.

The light after the darkness.

The light in the darkness. (though by rights that should have been House Hightower, of course "We light the way" is just as good)

Side note: House Tollet's words are "When all is darkest..." I think they had a part in the Long Night as well. For a minor character, Edd is not only entertaining, but I think important as well. He may even have given us a clue on Coldhands with his idea that after he (Edd) dies, they'll still expect him to work. ;)

Additional side note: Anybody think the first light in that high-tower was lit via dragonflame?

I love that Edd quote, and yeah I think it's a big tip off. I've begun looking at his sarcastic sayings in a different way since finding that one recently. :)

[Voice]

I quite like this theory. Bran the Builder is the Other we see in the show. Very interesting. It's possible that the Starks are Others as well, as evidenced by their ability to warg.

:cheers:

You may be interested to know that I am one of the few dedicated to this subject that do not connect the ability to warg with the Others. In my mind, the Others represent a completely different and separate power. I see their abilities as the complete opposite of Old-Gods-magic (greenseeing, greendreams, warging and skinchanging), as those abilities all deal with life. The Others exist in a suspended state of anti-life... in my mind anyway.

I also put no credence in the show, though I probably should LOL. I think there is enough in the text to suggest the existence of Night's King without the "mummer's farce"¹ on HBO.

¹Credit goes to Mr Black Crow for coining the term "mummer's farce"...

:cheers:

:cheers:

Just a couple of factual corrections:

Ice was not lost 400 years ago. There is no information suggesting that. All we know is that the V Steel version came from Valyria 400 years ago, and that it is not the original Ice. There is absolutely nothing to imply Ice was lost at the same time.

Second: there is no record of which First Men house was before another, apart from Garth the Green possibly being the first man in Westeros and the weird stories about the Ironborn. The Dayne's claim to go back to the Dawn of Days just as many FM houses do, but they do claim to have arrived before anyone else. Numbers like 8,000 and 10,000 years ago are of course approximate. If they say 10 in one place and 8 in another it does not mean there's a difference. They both mean "around the time of the Dawn Age / Long Night," and that's about it.

The Daynes certainly date back to this time and in my opinion are descended from the Dawn Age dragon lords from Asshai who came before Valyria's rise and built the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle in Oldtown... But it is not accurate to suggest there's a factual time gap between the Dayne's origin and the Stark's origin based on the text. All that is just really good extrapolation and guesswork for us to do.

:cheers:

Looking at this from a writer's standpoint (and I know I'm not on par with GRRM, but still...)

"A" Wind of Winter would make no sense. There's no one wind during winter. You get a bunch of them, and they're all very cold. So it has to be plural which eliminates the use of "a" denoting the singular.

Interestingly, the original-ish title that best corresponds to TWOW from what we can tell is A Time for Wolves. Still important stuff for Bran, who is a wolf.

I hear ya. I like "The Winds" as it is gives the feeling of a more precise threat, rather than a vague one.

Couple suggestions...

Spring is coming.

Dawn is coming.

The dawn after the night.

The light after the darkness.

The light in the darkness. (though by rights that should have been House Hightower, of course "We light the way" is just as good)

Side note: House Tollet's words are "When all is darkest..." I think they had a part in the Long Night as well. For a minor character, Edd is not only entertaining, but I think important as well. He may even have given us a clue on Coldhands with his idea that after he (Edd) dies, they'll still expect him to work. ;)

Additional side note: Anybody think the first light in that high-tower was lit via dragonflame?

I'm thinking along the same lines for House Dayne's words. I wouldn't be surprised if they were simply "We Bring the Light."

Uh, the sword was taken from the enemy and used to pierce their armor because as an enemy substance it's the same toughness as the armor they'd use, and like in every video game and sci-fi series and fantasy story it was only then that the enemy could be defeated because no weapon of man could do it. Then the Starks had a sex scandal and the sword had to assume a new identity to escape from the police, so it was taken and paraded in the Summer lands nearer the equator, where it's sunnier and more Dawnish.

Interesting... I don't disagree, but in my view, dragonsteel was effective against the Others, and is not the same thing as the milkglass blades of Others themselves, which is what Dawn is...

[Daendrew]

Even more important, House Yronwood's words are We Guard The Way.

...To Starfall?

What is so important for The Battle for The Dawn that is in Starfall?

Asking for a friend. ;-)

I will probably have my article and theory on Dawn out tomorrow.

[Dire Dawg]

So I don't think we're too far apart on this LB :cheers: At least in terms of outcome. The Daynes are keeping Dawn away from the spawn of Night's King, be they Starks or Grumpkins ;)

So if this is the case, Ned Stark's honor saved the whole world since he didn't keep Dawn. He instead pried it from Arthur Dayne's dead hands and returned to Starfell. Was there a moment of hesitation, was there a temptation to bring back his house's ancestral blade? Is that the promise he made to Lyanna?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I love that Edd quote, and yeah I think it's a big tip off. I've begun looking at his sarcastic sayings in a different way since finding that one recently. :)

It just occurred to me that he said "They'll prune you when you least expect it." And in the show, the Others look a bit prune-y. :D

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Even more important, House Yronwood's words are We Guard The Way.

...To Starfall?

What is so important for The Battle for The Dawn that is in Starfall?

Asking for a friend. ;-)

I will probably have my article and theory on Dawn out tomorrow.

Great catch, Daen!

So if this is the case, Ned Stark's honor saved the whole world since he didn't keep Dawn. He instead pried it from Arthur Dayne's dead hands and returned to Starfell. Was there a moment of hesitation, was there a temptation to bring back his house's ancestral blade? Is that the promise he made to Lyanna?

Lyanna has just given birth to a son whose life will be in danger if the new king finds out he exists, and her only thought was a sword going back to someone.

Somehow I don't think so.

[Daendrew]

It just occurred to me that he said "They'll prune you when you least expect it." And in the show, the Others look a bit prune-y. :D

They should have published The Wit And Wisdom of Edd Tollett, instead of Tyrion Lannister.

[Voice]

So if this is the case, Ned Stark's honor saved the whole world since he didn't keep Dawn.

Indeed.

He instead pried it from Arthur Dayne's dead hands and returned to Starfell. Was there a moment of hesitation, was there a temptation to bring back his house's ancestral blade? Is that the promise he made to Lyanna?

This is where I have a different view of things from most. I don't think Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy. As Arthur Dayne lay dying, I think he told Ned that Lya was at Starfall.

So yes, I think Ned did feel some temptation, or at least, that Dawn felt incredibly "right" and "wrong" in his hand. If he were his older brother Brandon, instead of The Ned, things may have played out much differently. But Eddard was not so wolf-blooded as he. Instead, he was overcome with admiration and respect for Arthur, brought down the tower to make cairns for the 8 fallen men, and returned Dawn to where it belonged.

Once at Starfall, Ned discovered his dying sister, and made her another promise.

[Daendrew]

Are there towers at Starfall?

GRRM I read said somewhere Neds vision was a fever dream and shouldn't be take literally.

Could Ashara's tower be Lyanna's tower? The tower where his joy fell?

How could Ned knock the tower down anyway? Without wildfyre.

[Voice]

Are there towers at Starfall?

There are. Paramount among them is the "Palestone Sword" tower. Ashara threw herself from it.

GRRM I read said somewhere Neds vision was a fever dream and shouldn't be take literally.

Indeed he did.

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander and the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the tower of joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Could Ashara's tower be Lyanna's tower?

This is my thinking.

The tower where his joy fell?

Possibly, but the tower of joy is what Rhaegar was said to have named the place where Ned fought the KG, which does not seem to be the same place Lyanna died...

How could Ned knock the tower down anyway? Without wildfyre.

Right, unless the tower Ned pulled down "himself" wasn't much of a tower. I'm thinking the actual "tower of joy", where Ned fought the KG, looked like this.

Then after pulling it down, he made 8 cairns for the fallen out of the rubble.

(Then he went to Starfall)

[Daendrew]

There are. Paramount among them is the "Palestone Sword" tower. Ashara threw herself from it.

Indeed he did.

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander and the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the tower of joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

This is my thinking.

Possibly, but the tower of joy is what Rhaegar was said to have named the place where Ned fought the KG, which does not seem to be the same place Lyanna died...

Right, unless the tower Ned pulled down "himself" wasn't much of a tower. I'm thinking the actual "tower of joy", where Ned fought the KG, looked like this.

Then after pulling it down, he made 8 cairns for the fallen out of the rubble.

(Then he went to Starfall)

Could Lyanna have killed herself and died in a seabed of blood?

That is why he was so fast to squash rumors about Ashara and him.

Ashara is Lyanna.

And Ser Arthur was in front of the Tower of Joy because that is his castle. This echos the squires who beat up Howland but switched roles.

Kind of mind blowing.

Does anyone else in the real world and not Ned's dream mention Ned killing Ser Arthur?

[LmL]

Voice, look what you've done to poor Daen. You've brought on one of his fits... someone get the sweetsleep. It will pass but it's gonna be ugly until it does. ;)

[Voice]

Could Lyanna have killed herself and died in a seabed of blood?

That is why he was so fast to squash rumors about Ashara and him.

Ashara is Lyanna.

Mayhaps.

Lyanna and Ashara were both real and two separate women, but their deaths seem to be strangely linked by Ned's journey to Dorne. Both were close to Ned. Ashara is said to have had a child, Lyanna is theorized to have had one.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit to entertaining the crackpot idea that Ned brought Ashara's remains to Winterfell, as she was his true, first wife (and thus, the Lady of Winterfell), before the political marriage to Catelyn, but that is quite unsupported by text, not to mention crazytalk. LOL

Another facet to this is that if Lyanna died at Starfall, or threw herself from the Palestone Tower, it might explain this quote from the fever dream:

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

This could be describing Lyanna's/Ashara's suicide. Streaking across the sky, falling ever downward, toward the deep blue sea...

[Voice]

Voice, look what you've done to poor Daen. You've brought on one of his fits... someone get the sweetsleep. It will pass but it's gonna be ugly until it does. ;)

LMAO!!!

Holy shit that one got me :cheers:

[Daendrew]

Voice, look what you've done to poor Daen. You've brought on one of his fits... someone get the sweetsleep. It will pass but it's gonna be ugly until it does. ;)

He woke the ice dragon. You never want to wake the ice dragon.

Let me me go one step further before the sweet sleep....Does Starfall have red doors and a lemon tree?

[Voice]

Let me one up all of you... Does Starfall have red doors and a lemon tree?

I've suggested the same, though it was, in truth, a joke :)

Conversely, what if Braavosi Lemon Trees have Blue Flowers?

[The Great Cornholio!]

Quick first impressions (am in a rush): Concise and clever.

Like the split personality of the Night's King and the double agent (more Carre than Stevenson)--any theories as to why the split?

Was it the sacrifices alone that caused his brother to turn on him, or the double agency?

The sword--was it originally an Other's sword? Or always the pale milk glass of Dawn? Not quite clear from fast read. . .

Does the sword itself have the power to return Winter, or that if it returns, a Stark can use it to bring Winter back.

And I have to go. Great post. :cheers:

Doesn't the Azor Ahai legend in Essos speak of the Nights King worshiping a meteor? Wouldn't it be interesting if the fragments of the meteor were used to make Dawn? The sword that can defeat the Nights King?

[Voice]

Doesn't the Azor Ahai legend in Essos speak of the Nights King worshiping a meteor? Wouldn't it be interesting if the fragments of the meteor were used to make Dawn? The sword that can defeat the Nights King?

I have a hunch LmL will have something to say regarding this. I'll just throw in the idea that the meteor (a "fallen star" in the text) may be speaking of the fall of the Night's King (with stars for eyes), instead of an actual meteorite.

[LmL]

I've suggested the same, though it was, in truth, a joke :)

Conversely, what if Braavosi Lemon Trees have Blue Flowers?

Dude, just stop. You're going liquefy Daen's brains until they leak out of his ears like melting milkglass.

[Daendrew]

Dude, just stop. You're going liquefy Daen's brains until they leak out of his ears like melting milkglass.

Worst part is, I'm lactose intolerant.