How Ice became Dawn

[LmL]

I have a hunch LmL will have something to say regarding this. I'll just throw in the idea that the meteor (a "fallen star" in the text) may be speaking of the fall of the Night's King (with stars for eyes), instead of an actual meteorite.

It might be, but it's not. ;)

We have too many literal fallen stars for that to be the case.

As for the rest... we have a black stone that fell in the east and is connected to the LN, and a pale stone which fell at Starfall and made a sword called Dawn. I tend to think that the Bloodstone Emperor was Azor Ahai, and AA's Lightbringer was made of black steel from the black stone meteor, while Dawn was made from a pale stone, a piece of the comet. Dawn was the "actual" Lightbribger, but it's name was originally Ice, while Lightbringer the red sword of Azor Ahai was actually more like a darkbringer.

If that sounds interesting at all you might try the theories linked in my signature.

[LmL]

Worst part is, I'm lactose intolerant.

Now my brains are melting!

Let no man call you an Other sympathizer. You're intolerant of them with every fiber of your being. Perhaps you'd make an excellent ranger of the Nights Watch.

[Daendrew]

Mayhaps.

Lyanna and Ashara were both real and two separate women, but their deaths seem to be strangely linked by Ned's journey to Dorne. Both were close to Ned. Ashara is said to have had a child, Lyanna is theorized to have had one.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit to entertaining the crackpot idea that Ned brought Ashara's remains to Winterfell, as she was his true, first wife (and thus, the Lady of Winterfell), before the political marriage to Catelyn, but that is quite unsupported by text, not to mention crazytalk. LOL

Another facet to this is that if Lyanna died at Starfall, or threw herself from the Palestone Tower, it might explain this quote from the fever dream:

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

This could be describing Lyanna's/Ashara's suicide. Streaking across the sky, falling ever downward, toward the deep blue sea...

Really interesting thoughts. Palestone is a curious name. It is called the Palestone Sword. Which is even more curious.

Palestine is where the biblical savior was born. It may be where Westeros' anti-savior was born too.

Dany ate the fruit from the Western Wall as well.

[Voice]

Dude, just stop. You're going liquefy Daen's brains until they leak out of his ears like melting milkglass.

LOL!

Worst part is, I'm lactose intolerant.

Aw that's just sad. But, in truth, we should all wean ourselves off the teat at a certain point anyway. A man needs milk like a baby needs beer.

If that sounds interesting at all you might try the theories linked in my signature.

I certainly recommend them highly.

Now my brains are melting!

Let no man call you an Other sympathizer. You're intolerant of them with every fiber of your being. Perhaps you'd make an excellent ranger of the Nights Watch.

LOL, again haha. But yes, one does wonder if the NW is anti-dairy. Might this whole series be a treatise on Veganism?

Really interesting thoughts. Palestone is a curious name.

Palestine is where the biblical savior was born. It may be where Westeros' anti-savior was born too.

Dany ate the fruit from the Western Wall as well.

Very nice connection there with Palestine. I did not catch that :cheers:

But yeah, for me Palestone Sword = An Other's Milkglass Sword....

[Daendrew]

There are. Paramount among them is the "Palestone Sword" tower. Ashara threw herself from it.

Indeed he did.

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander and the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the tower of joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

This is my thinking.

Possibly, but the tower of joy is what Rhaegar was said to have named the place where Ned fought the KG, which does not seem to be the same place Lyanna died...

Right, unless the tower Ned pulled down "himself" wasn't much of a tower. I'm thinking the actual "tower of joy", where Ned fought the KG, looked like this.

Then after pulling it down, he made 8 cairns for the fallen out of the rubble.

(Then he went to Starfall)

Have you written a post with all of this out together?

[Voice]

Have you written a post with all of this out together?

I haven't. Until very recently, I was in the "tower of joy" camp. Then my eyes were opened by a more careful examination of the published canon, with eyes unclouded by fan interpretations. Now, I'm all but certain Lyanna died at Starfall, and that Jon was born there.

The impetus came from this thread, and conversations with its writer. I've been participating in the new iteration as well.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If I could go OT for just a second: do any of you gentlemen actually think Ashara is dead?

[Daendrew]

If I could go OT for just a second: do any of you gentlemen actually think Ashara is dead?

Ashara is Dany's treason the treason for love. That is why she is Septa L'(e)more. The Septa that flirts and has scars from childbirth. Her eye color are never mentioned by Tyrion.

If fAegon is perceived to be the true heir, his claim outranks Dany's and Ser Grandfather will have to choose. Just as he had to choose but failed when he supported Robert vs Viscerys.

He has never chosen himself in all his life. And this may be the first time he does. Ashara Dayne may be the dealbreaker. Why else write in his love for her?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Ashara is Dany's treason the treason for love. That is why she is Septa L'(e)more. The Septa that flirts and has scars from childbirth. Her eye color are never mentioned by Tyrion.

If fAegon is perceived to be the true heir, his claim outranks Dany's and Ser Grandfather will have to choose. Just as he had to choose but failed when he supported Robert vs Viscerys.

He has never chosen himself in all his life. And this may be the first time he does. Ashara Dayne may be the dealbreaker. Why else write in his love for her?

Ashara is not Septa Lemore. Jon Con knew Ashara and we get no clues from his POV that Lemore is anyone other than Lemore. If she was Ashara, JonCon would know.

Her eye color is not mentioned by Tyrion most likely because it's not important to her identity.

Ashara can still be alive, and present a choice for Barristan without her being Lemore.

[Daendrew]

Ashara is not Septa Lemore. Jon Con knew Ashara and we get no clues from his POV that Lemore is anyone other than Lemore. If she was Ashara, JonCon would know.

Her eye color is not mentioned by Tyrion most likely because it's not important to her identity.

Ashara can still be alive, and present a choice for Barristan without her being Lemore.

I might have missed the part of Jon Con and Ashara. My last ADWD reread was last year. But aren't both living lies regarding their true identities and all in on the fake identities together, sans Young Griff?

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

1. and 2. yes indeed

3. While the Long Night was a global event, we have mention of "the Others" in Westeros alone. Which isn't at all strange, considering it is the only continent that reaches arctic climes.

4. glad we settled that ;)

5. You misunderstood what I wrote. There's no Brandon in the godswood... There's a cotf-greenseer in the weirwood. That particular weirwood will eventually see the walls of Winterfell rise around it. But for now, it remains virgin, though surrounded by frozen dead lands. Brandon is not there, not yet. For now (like Bran in his coma dream, or Jon being called to the crypts) this man named Brandon is being invited to come and learn.

6 No contradiction at all... The North is under attack, and falling quickly to the Others. The realm of frozen dead lands is ever growing, but not without resistance. When attacked by Others in the long night they keep watch from atop walls. This is known from the vow of the Night's Watch itself. Pay attention to the "old version" of the vow that Samwell repeats before the Black Gate:

Bran IV ASOS

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

"the walls"....plural. Not "the Wall." Thus, the Watch predates the Wall, and there had been "watchers" on "walls" for some time during the Long Night.

6b. I wasn't sure what you meant by this:

If they are only 13, they'd rather all have warg/greenseer powers.

7. You misunderstood 5, so it's snowballing now... He hasn't yet reached the greenseer, but I suppose in a way the greenseer effed his dozen companions.

8. No, he still has not reached the greenseer. At this point, he is the lone wolf, on an ice white field, desperate, with Others hot on his trail with their ice spiders. Just before it is too late, we know the cotf rescued him:

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

The youngest of the black brothers shifted uncomfortably in his seat. "There's not a man on the Wall knows the haunted forest better than Benjen Stark. He'll find his way back."

"Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out."

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

9. Hopefully now you understand... Only now, since being rescued in 8 above, has the last hero been in the greenseer's company in order to learn the magics. You can think of the 12 as a sacrifice if you like. They didn't make it, which makes little difference.

I think this is more snowballing from 5, but to answer... No. The greenseer reached out to this man named Brandon through his dreams (like 3EC and Bran). Inspired by his dreams, he set out into the frozen dead lands of the North on his way to the greenseer he hoped would help him make the Winter-fall. His companions didn't survive the journey. He was the last of the heroes, and became known as the last hero. We know from Bran that he was rescued by the cotf. Once rescued, he is brought, or is led, to the weirwood that will later become the heart (tree) of Winterfell. At this time, it is only a weirwood that is protected from the frozen dead lands by a natural hot spring, with no castle around it. (It should be noted that the hot springs are a very unique feature of Winterfell's godswood.) This is the first time the man named Brandon has ever been there.

I believe the world book offers further evidence that Brandon the Builder was indeed the Last Hero:

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

I think we'd all agree that tale was worth repeating, but maesters like to tease. Anyhoo, I'm saying the bold took place in the cave that would soon become the Crypts of Winterfell, that the weirwood of this greenseer would soon become Winterfell's heart tree, and that this gave rise to the Stark connection to Winter, and the reason there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. :cool4:

10. What? I think you must have misunderstood 7 as well. These dozen companions did not constitute the entire Night's Watch, they were only fellow rangers, led by a commander. Or, mayhaps they were all commanders from various walls.

11. We agree :) thus, he became a Hero.

12. Yes indeed. The Others retreated to the Lands of Always Winter, behind their curtain of light, where no tree takes root and nothing "lives"... unless you happen to be an ice-based form of life, instead of carbon.

13. I do. But he wasn't alone. He had the Watch, and many Builders. To this day, the Builders guild of the NW keeps raising the Wall higher than they found it. After 8,000 years, it stands 700ft tall. So, one has to wonder, how low was it 8,000 years ago? This Hero named Brandon simply consolidated these many watcher from upon many walls, organized them, and set about connecting what became the foundation of the Wall. We know the Wall contains magic. He's the one that brought it. :cool4:

14. I've been reduced to "so-called" reasoning, tis a sad day at the Night Fort LOL. Anyway, yes. Old Nan verifies that the 13th LC was a Stark. She adds, "Mayhaps his name was Brandon." The worldbook says Brandon the Builder is the man who sought aid from the cotf to raise the Wall, and the books tell us the Last Hero did something very similar. All he needs to do is turn to the dark side, and bed a cold woman with skin like the moon and eyes like blue stars. The "new version" of the NW vow likely comes from his inhuman acts.

And while it is dubious BtB made everything credited to him (like Storm's End), it isn't at all hard to believe that he built the Wall, and laid the first stone at Winterfell.

15. If you don't like the idea of the 13th Lord Commander starting off by fighting Others, then switching sides after sleeping with a pale, star-eyed woman, you'll have to take it up with the author.

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

16. Again, your beef is with GRRM. It's straight from the book.

17. Well your point at 14 wasn't exactly earth-shattering, but feel free to keep it. Again, take it up with the author if you don't like the idea of the 13th Lord Commander leading the Night's Watch "against" the Others for thirteen years, while secretly aiding them. It's straight from the book. And unless his sworn brothers enjoyed the idea of being bound to his will with sorcery, it seems likely he double-crossed them.

18. That actually is another way to look at it, but wasn't my point.

My point is this:

By day, Night's King was a man, commanded the Night's Watch, and led Men... laid the first stone at Winterfell... was a swell guy. LOL

By night, the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch reigned the Long Night as King, and led Others... made sacrifices to the Others... named his Other-looking woman "queen"...

19. It is said that "with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will." That sounds like some major voodoo shit. ;)

20. Oh really? I use the pronoun "he" to refer to only one man until 23. I assume readers are familiar with the story of the Night's King. I use similar language here.

21. Precisely. Such machinations are often imperfect. Can you not think of a loyal brother who has defied his Lord, Commander, and King, because he believed his liege to be under the influence of a pale sorceress? :cool4:

22. He who brings the Dawn cannot be threatened with Night.

23. All it took was one man to send the Watch to hell in a handbasket. All it took was one to end it. Just think, the 13th Lord Commander was a man like any other until that enchantress came along. One wonders what might happen if she were not in the picture anymore...

24. I'm don't know what you meant on this one...

24b Bran the breaker?

Mayhaps this was the founder of House Dayne, who discovered his sworn/brother's treachery. Mayhaps it was another name for Brandon the Builder once he began Breaking Vows. Who knows... 8,000 years leach at a man's memories.

25b Joramun?

What were the wildlings before the Wall? It seems to me Joramun was just a fellow First Man who didn't like what the Night's Watch was becoming. Maybe he was even a watcher on a wall himself. Who knows. In any case, I think his "horn" left the Wall quite in tact, so Mance was trippin. The only way he brought the Wall down was in the downfall of Night's King, which only strengthened the Night's Watch. So, it seems wildlings have forgotten a few things over these past 8,000 years as well, and that they were once friends to the Watch and to the SiW.

25c And why then there's a Dawn in Starfall, in FREKING Dorne at the opposite side of Westeros ?

To keep it away from the descendants of the Night's King.

Doth I detect sarcasm? lol

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joramun

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I might have missed the part of Jon Con and Ashara. My last ADWD reread was last year. But aren't both living lies regarding their true identities and all in on the fake identities together, sans Young Griff?

Yes, but we have JonCon's POV and he thinks of Lemore as "Lady Lemore." If she were Ashara Dayne, who Jon Connington knew (and danced with at Harrenhal, per Meera's story) there would be some clues to her identity in his chapters.

JonCon is certainly living a lie, but he's not lying in his POV. And actually we don't know that Lemore is living a lie at all. She had a child at one point but that doesn't mean she's not a septa.

[Voice]

If I could go OT for just a second: do any of you gentlemen actually think Ashara is dead?

I greatly enjoy the idea of her being alive, but I don't think she is. Such a rare beauty would be hard to hide.

[Voice]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joramun

Uh huh... Not sure what I'm supposed to see there. I'm aware of the descriptions of Joramun in the text, just tossing around other angles.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I greatly enjoy the idea of her being alive, but I don't think she is. Such a rare beauty would be hard to hide.

Depends on where. And there are always glamours. ;)

[Knight and Dayne]

She was a rare beauty 20(ish) years ago, but that Dornish sun is a nightmare for proto-Valyrian complexion.

[Mithras]

I don't trust the Daynes. They should be the bad guys IMO.

[Dire Dawg]

I don't trust the Daynes. They should be the bad guys IMO.

Why? Arthur Dayne seemed to be universally respected and lil Ned seemed like a decent enough young kid. Darkstar does seem a bit troublesome, but he's not a "real" Dayne.

[Voice]

A glamour for 17 years?

If she was Ned's age or younger she'd be like 35 tops. Hardly an old maid.

We saw how hard it was for Catelyn Tully to hide in plain sight... I think it would be far more difficult for the most beautiful woman in memory.

[Voice]

I don't trust the Daynes. They should be the bad guys IMO.

Eddard respects few men. Barristan and Arthur are on his shortlist. That, I think, speaks volumes in spite of the lack of information we have.

That being said, you could well be right, but I think House Stark is the one with the milkglass skeletons in the closet.