How Ice became Dawn

[Voice]

Here's how it all went down (except for the origin of the Others, which I'm still writing up lol):

1. A winter that lasts a generation comes, the people name it "the Long Night"
   
2. In that darkness the Others came for the first time
   
3. The Others sweep over the many kingdoms (and walls) of the First Men (with their ice spiders :devil:)
   
4. The armies of men lost the North, including what is now Winterfell...
   
5. A greenseer reached out to a man named Brandon from the roots of the heart tree, located in what has since become Winterfell's godswood...
   
6. A man named Brandon called together many "watchers" from many walls, and consolidated them into a brotherhood named "the Night's Watch"
   
7. This man set out into the frozen dead lands, with his fellow 12 Lords Commander, who were all destroyed, along with his horse, dog, and sword
   
8. He was desperate, like a direwolf running across an ice-white field, when the cotf rescued him...
   
9. There, the place where it will soon be said that The Winter, fell, he learned ancient magics from the greenseer
   
10. When he returned to the Night's Watch, the Others could not stand against him
    
11. He won back some of the frozen dead lands (the North)
    
12. He set about building a great wall of ice along the northern boundary of the lands he saved (to protect the godswood of his mentor)
    
13. This man named Brandon became known as "the Builder"
    
14. By day, he became known as the (last) Hero, and the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
    
15. One night, as he was building, he glimpsed a woman with skin as pale as the moon and eyes like bright glowing stars
    
16. Fearless, he took her and gave her his seed, and his soul as well
    
17. Brandon develops split personalities, and becomes a double agent...
    
18. By day: he was a man like any other, a father to his trueborn children, a husband to his wife, a hero of the First Men, and a leader of his sworn brothers (note the vow repeated at the Black Gate does not include the father no children admonition)
    
19. By night: he was a man unlike any other, he named himself king and his pale woman queen, made sacrifices to the Others, and bound his sworn brothers with sorcery
    
20. It was discovered he had been making sacrifices to the Others (most likely in secret, through the Black Gate)
    
21. A sworn brother disarmed this Long Night's King of Winter, freed his brothers from bondage, and claimed his pale, milkglass sword, and it became known as Dawn [Dawn of the Day(ne)]
    
22. Exiled, Night's King retreated with the Others and the Long Night came to an end.
    
23. The sworn brother that cast him down became known as he who ended the long night, he who "brought the dawn," and the "sword of the morning."
    
24. The descendants of Brandon the Builder say that Winter is Coming, and name their new ancestral sword Ice in remembrance of the shame of their House, the origin of their House, or, as a reminder that their House will return to power with the coming winter.
    

In my thinking, Ned returned Dawn to Starfall because he knew his House no longer had any claim to it. Dawn/Ice represents the dark history of House (Star+Dark) Stark. And that shamed Ned. That sword now belongs to House (Day+Dawn) Dayne.

[watson98]

Not sure I agree with all of it but I like the idea of the 13th lord commander being the last remaining after the first 12 died in the long night

[Aegon the Poached]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104473-reconciling-northern-myths-last-hero-is-nights-king/

This is a similar idea.

[plectrum]

It's an interesting idea. Seems a little too neat for the sprawling epic though. That's not really a criticism with any teeth mind you, but just my first impression.

I really like the wordplay in the names by the way.

[Sly Wren]

Quick first impressions (am in a rush): Concise and clever.

Like the split personality of the Night's King and the double agent (more Carre than Stevenson)--any theories as to why the split?

Was it the sacrifices alone that caused his brother to turn on him, or the double agency?

The sword--was it originally an Other's sword? Or always the pale milk glass of Dawn? Not quite clear from fast read. . .

Does the sword itself have the power to return Winter, or that if it returns, a Stark can use it to bring Winter back.

And I have to go. Great post. :cheers:

[sciteacher]

In my thinking, Ned returned Dawn to Starfall because he knew his House no longer had any claim to it. Dawn/Ice represents the dark history of House (Star+Dark) Stark. And that shamed Ned. That sword now belongs to House (Day+Dawn) Dayne.

Am I confused? Are you saying that Ned took his Valyrian steel great sword to the Daynes, and now that sword is Dawn?

[Dire Dawg]

Nice work.

Really like the idea that he is the 13th because the other 12 died before him on the quest, and the split personality side of good old Bran the Builder (Nice Stark whitewash there).

2) First time the Others came since the FM arrived in Westeros or first time ever?

[Helikzhan]

Not sure I agree with all of it but I like the idea of the 13th lord commander being the last remaining after the first 12 died in the long night

How could the first 12 die in the long night if the Night's Watch didn't exist until after the battle for the dawn?

[Voice]

Not sure I agree with all of it but I like the idea of the 13th lord commander being the last remaining after the first 12 died in the long night

:cheers: Without some disagreement, these would be very bland conversations... Like when John Malkovich went inside himself in Being John Malkovich.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104473-reconciling-northern-myths-last-hero-is-nights-king/

This is a similar idea.

Indeed! You'll find many comments from me on that thread, including some further thoughts I have on Winterfell's godswood.

It's an interesting idea. Seems a little too neat for the sprawling epic though. That's not really a criticism with any teeth mind you, but just my first impression.

I really like the wordplay in the names by the way.

Understandable. The the sprawling threads must eventually form a tapestry we can understand, yes? ;)

Glad you like the wordplay. It's kind of my thing :)

1 Quick first impressions (am in a rush): Concise and clever.

2 Like the split personality of the Night's King and the double agent (more Carre than Stevenson)--any theories as to why the split?

3 Was it the sacrifices alone that caused his brother to turn on him, or the double agency?

4 The sword--was it originally an Other's sword? Or always the pale milk glass of Dawn? Not quite clear from fast read. . .

5 Does the sword itself have the power to return Winter, or that if it returns, a Stark can use it to bring Winter back.

6 And I have to go. Great post. :cheers:

1 :cheers:

2 Yes. I like the idea of two wives for this man, one living blood (fire), the other cold blood (ice). I believe that the stress of polygamy caused his mental disorder LOL! That's one...

The other, is that he became the terrible half-human of legend.

By day, he was normal.

By night, he wasn't.

Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.... A weir-wolf ;)

3 The double-agency. LOL, like I know! In my mind, at least, the sacrifices were how his treachery was discovered... the smoking gun. His human-inhuman duality was the true offense.

4 Both. "Dawn" was always the pale milkglass blade of an Other, but not just any other, it belonged to the (long) Night's King. There are precious few references to milkglass in the series. One is Dawn. One is the bones of the Other Samwell killed. The others mentions are all relating to death (ghost grass with stalks/pointy ends/swords of milkglass that glows with the souls of the damned, Maester Pycell's vials of poison, and the windows of the Temple of the Moonsingers in Braavos.

5 I have a feeling the King wants his House back. And his sword. :devil:

6 Thanks for commenting!

Am I confused? Are you saying that Ned took his Valyrian steel great sword to the Daynes, and now that sword is Dawn?

Yes, there were two swords named "Ice":

Catelyn I AGOT:

"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

So there is the modern, Valyrian Ice, which Ned wielded. But that sword was named after an elder blade from the age of heroes. I'm suggesting that that blade once belonged to Brandon the Builder, and that as he became Night's King, his sword changed as well. I probably should have said something about that in the OP, come to think of it!... LOL

Nice work.

Really like the idea that he is the 13th because the other 12 died before him on the quest, and the split personality side of good old Bran the Builder (Nice Stark whitewash there).

2) First time the Others came since the FM arrived in Westeros or first time ever?

:cheers:

I can go full crackpot and say that Bran the Builder slept with his pale woman and put sapphires in his eyes that burned like blue stars and became known as Symeon Star Eyes until his full conversion to the psyche of the Night's King...and that his "hellhounds" were ice spiders... but I won't ;)

ETA: first time ever, imo

[Voice]

How could the first 12 die in the long night if the Night's Watch didn't exist until after the battle for the dawn?

Easy. The Night's Watch was a response to the Battle for the Dawn, or else, who was doing the battling? ;)

Thirteen Heroes set out into the frozen dead lands to learn ancient magics from the cotf, and turn the tide against the Others. Only the last survived.

[Helikzhan]

Easy. The Night's Watch was a response to the Battle for the Dawn, or else, who was doing the battling? ;)

Thirteen Heroes set out into the frozen dead lands to learn ancient magics from the cotf, and turn the tide against the Others. Only the last survived.

This is asoiaf, not the 13th warrior.

The Battle for the Dawn decided the fate of that war. The wall was built following the war's end and the Night's Watch was established to watch over the wall and to defend the realms of men.

The only reason there were 12 lord commanders before the NK was to give his 13th iteration some relevancy to the morale of his story. 13 is an unlucky number. In the lineage of lord commanders he was the worst. I don't think he is anymore complicated than that.

[Voice]

This is asoiaf, not the 13th warrior.

LOL, I'm afraid you'll have to take that up with GRRM. It's straight from the book...

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

The Battle for the Dawn decided the fate of that war. The wall was built following the war's end and the Night's Watch was established to watch over the wall and to defend the realms of men.

The timelines are far from precise. The Night's Watch predates the Wall. And, the annals of the Night's Watch (which are historical records of the deeds of the Night's Watch) record the Last Hero and his dragonsteel blade that the Others could not stand against.

The only reason there were 12 lord commanders before the NK was to give his 13th iteration some relevancy to the morale of his story. 13 is an unlucky number. In the lineage of lord commanders he was the worst. I don't think he is anymore complicated than that.

You may well be right. But I tend to think this is a rather complicated tale, and that the circumstances surrounding the Long Night, House Stark's connection to Winter, and the proximity of the Last Hero and Night's King are suggestive. Old Nan names the Night's King "Stark."

[sciteacher]

sciteacher, on 13 Jun 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

Am I confused? Are you saying that Ned took his Valyrian steel great sword to the Daynes, and now that sword is Dawn?

Yes, there were two swords named "Ice":

Catelyn I AGOT:

"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

So there is the modern, Valyrian Ice, which Ned wielded. But that sword was named after an elder blade from the age of heroes. I'm suggesting that that blade once belonged to Brandon the Builder, and that as he became Night's King, his sword changed as well. I probably should have said something about that in the OP, come to think of it!... LOL

Thanks for clearing that up. Is there specific information on the earlier Ice that makes you think it was altered instead of just set aside? I know the Others are supposed to have swords of ice--and doesn't Valyrian steel harm them?

[Helikzhan]

Ah, so that is interesting. I never caught that bit about the Night's Watch being formed during the long night, before the battle for the dawn.

So it seems all these different stories DO tie together just in variation per region and word of mouth. That makes perfect sense.

However, I'm hesitant to think you can have 12 companions and come away with a 13th lord commander. Unless they nominated one another lord commander as the last was eaten by the ice spiders they were running from. :bang:

[Voice]

Ah, so that is interesting. I never caught that bit about the Night's Watch being formed during the long night, before the battle for the dawn.

So it seems all these different stories DO tie together just in variation per region and word of mouth. That makes perfect sense.

However, I'm hesitant to think you can have 12 companions and come away with a 13th lord commander. Unless they nominated one another lord commander as the last was eaten by the ice spiders they were running from. :bang:

Precisely ;)

[Voice]

Thanks for clearing that up. Is there specific information on the earlier Ice that makes you think it was altered instead of just set aside? I know the Others are supposed to have swords of ice--and doesn't Valyrian steel harm them?

No problem :) we have no info at all on the original Ice... Tis all conjecture in that dept. But, there does seem to be something about Starks that is more wintry than other great houses of First Men. And just the fact that the sword was named Ice is quite telling, in my mind anyway :)

Edit: Who can tell me how many swords in the series are said to be "sharper than any razor"? ;)

[White Ravens]

I'm not following the origins of Dawn in your presentation. What of the established origin story or Dawn? - Meteorite falls to earth and is forged into the Sword Dawn, pale as milkglass but as light and strong as Valyrian steel.

[Braavosi Lemons]

Edit: Who can tell me how many swords in the series are said to be "sharper than any razor"? ;)

The phrase "sharper than any razor" appears two times one describing the blades of the Others and once describing Ice (the sword currently know as "Ice")

http://asearchoficeandfire.com

[Voice]

I'm not following the origins of Dawn in your presentation. What of the established origin story or Dawn? - Meteorite falls to earth and is forged into the Sword Dawn, pale as milkglass but as light and strong as Valyrian steel.

I wrote the OP from a BtB-centric perspective, but I do have an explanation for that.

Rather than a meteorite, Dawn is said to have come from a "fallen star". Bran III ACOK:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

So, rather than a fallen meteorite, as we might find in the real world, I think Dawn was won from the "fallen" Star-Eyed Night's King. I believe Star-fall and Winter-fell are descriptions of the same event: the fall of the Night's King and the end of the Long Night.

[Voice]

The phrase "sharper than any razor" appears two times one describing the blades of the Others and once describing Ice (the sword currently know as "Ice")

http://asearchoficeandfire.com

Exactly. Ice, and the blade of Ser Crackles. Those are the only two swords said to be sharper than any razor. Why would GRRM describe only Ice and Dawn, of all swords in the series, in language that evokes images of an Other's sword?