"Lyanna was at the TOJ" = semi-canon

[WeaselPie]

Many of you probably read my last thread on the topic, but in case you missed the discussions that followed up on elsewhere, here's what happened. A couple people were asking about this but it was in a few different threads, so here is everything in one place.

I asked Ran if he could verify the statement “Ned found Lyanna inside the tower of joy” and you can read his answers here and here.

To summarize -Lyanna’s death location as the tower of joy has been verified as semi-canon (secondary canon), not primary canon, by Ran because of a family tree he received in 2008 and also appears on a family tree he received in 1999.

“In the case of Lyanna Stark, she's on that Stark tree, and there her death location is given as the tower of joy.”

It doesn’t answer my question verbatim, but it does help fuel the brain fires.

More importantly for all of us, Ran has confirmed that the App is semi-canon, not canon and therefore the information in it is subject to possible change by GRRM in the upcoming novels as they’re published, or in any subsequent verified SSMs/semi-canonical reports that might conflict with the info in the App.

Or something like that. You can read Ran’s article on Referencing and Canon in case I got some words wrong. Now we can all get on the same page and not argue about what's canon and what isn't.

Thanks again Ran for all the time and research!

ETA proper links

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Thank you, WeaselPie!

You do realize that this is not going to end the arguments though...

[Voice]

Semi-canon. Wow. LOL

Here's hoping we might break some new ground :cheers:

Let's all put our minds together and think what it might mean if Lyanna was not at the toj.

[RumHam]

The evidence in the very first novel strongly points to Lyanna's presence at the tower of joy, given that Eddard's opening line about the dream connects the encounter with the Kingsguard, the tower, and Lyanna in her bed of blood as being all part of a single incident. Everything else -- her death in the red mountains, as Eddard attests -- also fits that. I'm sure there are arguments otherwise, but there are also arguments for why the earth is really flat, too. ;) And as it happens, George's family tree simply confirmed the fact that her death at the tower of joy is what he intended back in 2008.

So in addition to the first book suggesting she died there, we now have confirmation from the family tree files that that is what Martin intended. Though he is free to change his mind. I'd say Ran put the issue of where Lyanna died to rest.

[Voice]

Clearly there is no need for any future books. The answers have been there all along huh?

Ok moving on...

[Iron Stag]

So in addition to the first book suggesting she died there, we now have confirmation from the family tree files that that is what Martin intended. Though he is free to change his mind. I'd say Ran put the issue of where Lyanna died to rest.

Then why did this

her death in the red mountains, as Eddard attests

Never happen?

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense. This is not in the books. One cannot be referencing something that never happened as evidence that something else happened.

[Sly Wren]

Am guessing that if Lyanna at the Tower is semi-canon, one question that arises is how much of the stories/symbolism/prophesies readers tie Lyanna into depend on her being in that tower.

Some ideas: Obviously, R+L=J--no reason I can see what this can't still be true. But if KG aren't with her--does this mean they know it's over? Do they think Jon can't be king? A potential symbol for Jon's significance NOT being tied to kingship?

Or does this mean that Jon isn't Rhaegar's son?

Bottom line--what depends on Lyanna being at the Tower and what doesn't?

[SFDanny]

Many of you probably read my last thread on the topic, but in case you missed the discussions that followed up on elsewhere, here's what happened. A couple people were asking about this but it was in a few different threads, so here is everything in one place.

I asked Ran if he could verify the statement “Ned found Lyanna inside the tower of joy” and you can read his answers here and here.

To summarize -Lyanna’s death location as the tower of joy has been verified as semi-canon (secondary canon), not primary canon, by Ran because of a family tree he received in 2008 and also appears on a family tree he received in 1999.

“In the case of Lyanna Stark, she's on that Stark tree, and there her death location is given as the tower of joy.”

It doesn’t answer my question verbatim, but it does help fuel the brain fires.

More importantly for all of us, Ran has confirmed that the App is semi-canon, not canon and therefore the information in it is subject to possible change by GRRM in the upcoming novels as they’re published, or in any subsequent verified SSMs/semi-canonical reports that might conflict with the info in the App.

Or something like that. You can read Ran’s article on Referencing and Canon in case I got some words wrong. Now we can all get on the same page and not argue about what's canon and what isn't.

Thanks again Ran for all the time and research!

ETA proper links

I would think there is plenty of evidence that events in future novels may supersede those in previous novels, if Martin wishes them to do so. So, canon replaced by new canon is likely (Catelyn Stark arises from the dead as Lady Stoneheart, etc.) There are also numerous instances of semi-canon being replaced by canon as the new books are published (the semi-canon of George's remarks over the years concerning Aegon's fate and the new story line of Young Griff, for example.) And any or all what is canon or semi-canon just may turn out to be not true. I should think all of that is obvious.

What isn't necessarily obvious is that certain categories of semi-canon - specifically those from the app - may have more support than some of us wish to acknowledge. So, when the app states Lyanna dies at the tower of joy that is actual evidence of where the author appears to have taken her story. Not evidence that cannot be changed, but evidence nonetheless. Evidence that we now know fits into a category of semi-canon, and evidence that should be used just as we have used remarks by the author as evidence in the past.

When we try to figure out elements of the story, it would seem that we would want to take all the evidence into account. Or not. At times readers want to put forward new ideas that run counter to the existing evidence or at least beyond where that evidence takes us. Such new thinking is all to the good, as long as those new thinkers understand they have the responsibility to show how the new theory fits within canon and semi-canon sources, or even how replacing that evidence makes sense for the story.

So when new theories are made that places Lyanna's death at somewhere other than where the canon hints at and the semi-canon points directly to, her dying at the tower of joy when Ned finds her on her deathbed in a room smelling of blood and roses, that all of that existing evidence is acknowledged, or just why we should ignore some of, or all of, that evidence. And if not, the new theories should bear some skepticism for not doing so. Not very outrageous in my point of view, anyway. And I don't really think it should be in yours.

[Bael's Bastard]

So in addition to the first book suggesting she died there, we now have confirmation from the family tree files that that is what Martin intended. Though he is free to change his mind. I'd say Ran put the issue of where Lyanna died to rest.

Yup. But the denial is strong with some people.

[JNR]

To summarize -Lyanna’s death location as the tower of joy has been verified as semi-canon (secondary canon), not primary canon, by Ran because of a family tree he received in 2008 and also appears on a family tree he received in 1999.

Weasel, I'm confused. Maybe you can explain something.

We all know Ran and GRRM communicate all the time. GRRM treats Ran as a reference for trivial things like which third son of which obscure house did which deed.

So it seems like Ran could just ask GRRM "Did Lyanna die in the TOJ or not?" and get a straight answer.

Has it been explained why that hasn't happened?

[RumHam]

Then why did this

Never happen?

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense. This is not in the books. One cannot be referencing something that never happened as evidence that something else happened.

No offense taken, I did actually look for what Ran was talking about there and found no mention of Eddard saying Lyanna died in the Red Mountains. I'm not sure what he was thinking of. Still this in now way undermines his point.

Weasel, I'm confused. Maybe you can explain something.

We all know Ran and GRRM communicate all the time. GRRM treats Ran as a reference for trivial things like which third son of which obscure house did which deed.

So it seems like Ran could just ask GRRM "Did Lyanna die in the TOJ or not?" and get a straight answer.

Has it been explained why that hasn't happened?

The same reason Ran hasn't asked him if water is wet or the sky is blue. He already knows the answer.

[Voice]

Am guessing that if Lyanna at the Tower is semi-canon, one question that arises is how much of the stories/symbolism/prophesies readers tie Lyanna into depend on her being in that tower.

Some ideas: Obviously, R+L=J--no reason I can see what this can't still be true. But if KG aren't with her--does this mean they know it's over? Do they think Jon can't be king? A potential symbol for Jon's significance NOT being tied to kingship?

Or does this mean that Jon isn't Rhaegar's son?

Bottom line--what depends on Lyanna being at the Tower and what doesn't?

Precisely the sorts of questions we should be asking. We know where Lyanna and Jon being in the toj takes us. That ground has been plowed hundreds of times. Let's plow some new earth. If they are not at the tower, how might the narrative change?

I think many like the idea of Jon being king. And I agree he'd make a better one than Robert Baratheon. But if that isn't his destiny, what might be?

If Jon was born at the place known as Star Fall at about the same time as the Sword of the Morning, fell... then, was raised to nearly-manhood where Winter Fell in the Long Night... then has taken up residence at the Wall (which happens to look far more like the palestone, aka milkglass, "Dawn" than it does any Valyrian blade)...

There is new ground to cover, if folks can get past their personal quarrels and simply consider a viable alternative to the toj being Lyanna's maternity room. And, clearly, until it migrates from the realm of semi-canon to the realm of published canon, it is not canon. Nothing trumps the text.

Did Jon reach manhood with the arrival of the Red Comet? If so, what does that mean?

Might Jon have been born at Starfall in the Palestone Sword Tower? If so, what does that mean for Ashara's motive? Arya VIII ASOS:

He doesn’t like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

“How long have you been Lord Beric’s squire?” she asked, to take his mind from his misery.

“He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt.” He coughed. “I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings.”

“I never learned the lance, but I could beat you with a sword,” said Arya. “Have you killed anyone?”

That seemed to startle him. “I’m only twelve.”

I killed a boy when I was eight, Arya almost said, but she thought she’d better not. “You’ve been in battles, though.”

“Yes.” He did not sound very proud of it. “I was at the Mummer’s Ford. When Lord Beric fell into the river, I dragged him up onto the bank so he wouldn’t drown and stood over him with my sword. I never had to fight, though. He had a broken lance sticking out of him, so no one bothered us. When we regrouped, Green Gergen helped pull his lordship back onto a horse.”

Arya was remembering the stableboy at King’s Landing. After him there’d been that guard whose throat she cut at Harrenhal, and Ser Amory’s men at that holdfast by the lake. She didn’t know if Weese and Chiswyck counted, or the ones who’d died on account of the weasel soup… all of a sudden, she felt very sad. “My father was called Ned too,” she said.

“I know. I saw him at the Hand’s tourney. I wanted to go up and speak with him, but I couldn’t think what to say.” Ned shivered beneath his cloak, a sodden length of pale purple. “Were you at the tourney? I saw your sister there. Ser Loras Tyrell gave her a rose.”

“She told me.” It all seemed so long ago. “Her friend Jeyne Poole fell in love with your Lord Beric.”

“He’s promised to my aunt.” Ned looked uncomfortable. “That was before, though. Before he…”

…died? she thought, as Ned’s voice trailed off into an awkward silence. Their horses’ hooves made sucking sounds as they pulled free of the mud.

“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother… Jon Snow?”

“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair… “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’” Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “If you lie I’ll punch your face.”

“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the… the Lord of Starfall.”

Behind them, Gendry groaned. “Lords and ladies,” he proclaimed in a disgusted tone. Arya plucked a withered crabapple off a passing branch and whipped it at him, bouncing it off his thick bull head. “Ow,” he said. “That hurt.” He felt the skin above his eye. “What kind of lady throws crabapples at people?”

“The bad kind,” said Arya, suddenly contrite. She turned back to Ned. “I’m sorry I didn’t know who you were. My lord.”

“The fault is mine, my lady.” He was very polite.

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. “There was an Arthur Dayne,” she remembered. “The one they called the Sword of the Morning.”

“My father was Ser Arthur’s elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.”

“Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled.

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”

“No. Did he know her?”

“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”

“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”

“Her heart was broken.”

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”

He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place…”

“Tell me.”

He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”

“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”

“I’m sure he did, my lady, but—”

“She was the only one he loved.”

“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.

Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. “My father had honor,” she said angrily. “And we weren’t talking to you anyway. Why don’t you go back to Stoney Sept and ring that girl’s stupid bells?”

Gendry ignored that. “At least your father raised his bastard, not like mine. I don’t even know my father’s name. Some smelly drunk, I’d wager, like the others my mother dragged home from the alehouse. Whenever she got mad at me, she’d say, ‘If your father was here, he’d beat you bloody.’ That’s all I know of him.” He spat. “Well, if he was here now, might be I’d beat him bloody. But he’s dead, I figure, and your father’s dead too, so what does it matter who he lay with?”

It mattered to Arya, though she could not have said why. Ned was trying to apologize for upsetting her, but she did not want to hear it. She pressed her heels into her horse and left them both. Anguy the Archer was riding a few yards ahead. When she caught up with him, she said, “Dornishmen lie, don’t they?”

“They’re famous for it.” The bowman grinned. “Of course, they say the same of us marchers, so there you are. What’s the trouble now? Ned’s a good lad…”

“He’s just a stupid liar.” Arya left the trail, leapt a rotten log and splashed across a streambed, ignoring the shouts of the outlaws behind her. They just want to tell me more lies. She thought about trying to get away from them, but there were too many and they knew these lands too well. What was the use of running if they caught you?

It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. “Where do you think you’re going, milady? You shouldn’t run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things.”

“I’m not afraid,” she said. “That boy Ned said…”

“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

“She killed herself, though,” said Arya uncertainly. “Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea.”

“So she did,” Harwin admitted, as he led her back, “but that was for grief, I’d wager. She’d lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning.” He shook his head. “Let it lie, my lady. They’re dead, all of them. Let it lie… and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother.”

I'm reminded of Eddard taking away another woman's child. Cat II AGOT:

"The Others take both of you," Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the maester. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes. "My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again."

"A different time," Maester Luwin said. "A different king."

"Yes," Ned said dully. He seated himself in a chair by the hearth. "Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell."

His words were like an icy draft through her heart. "No," she said, suddenly afraid. Was this to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?

"Yes," Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. "You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes."

"Gods will, not for many years," Maester Luwin murmured.

"Maester Luwin, I trust you as I would my own blood. Give my wife your voice in all things great and small. Teach my son the things he needs to know. Winter is coming."

Maester Luwin nodded gravely. Then silence fell, until Catelyn found her courage and asked the question whose answer she most dreaded. "What of the other children?"

Ned stood, and took her in his arms, and held her face close to his. "Rickon is very young," he said gently. "He should stay here with you and Robb. The others I would take with me."

"I could not bear it," Catelyn said, trembling.

"You must," he said. "Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too."

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. "Yes," she said, "but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven."

"I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it."

He was right; Catelyn knew it. It did not make the pain any easier to bear. She would lose all four of them, then: Ned, and both girls, and her sweet, loving Bran. Only Robb and little Rickon would be left to her. She felt lonely already. Winterfell was such a vast place. "Keep him off the walls, then," she said bravely. "You know how Bran loves to climb."

With no Robb and baby Rickon to mother, might Cat have thrown herself from a tower? It doesn't seem unlikely given her behavior after Bran's fall.

I would think there is plenty of evidence that events in future novels may supersede those in previous novels, if Martin wishes them to do so. So, canon replaced by new canon is likely (Catelyn Stark arises from the dead as Lady Stoneheart, etc.) There are also numerous instances of semi-canon being replaced by canon as the new books are published (the semi-canon of George's remarks over the years concerning Aegon's fate and the new story line of Young Griff, for example.) And any or all what is canon or semi-canon just may turn out to be not true. I should think all of that is obvious.

What isn't necessarily obvious is that certain categories of semi-canon - specifically those from the app - may have more support than some of us wish to acknowledge. So, when the app states Lyanna dies at the tower of joy that is actual evidence of where the author appears to have taken her story. Not evidence that cannot be changed, but evidence nonetheless. Evidence that we now know fits into a category of semi-canon, and evidence that should be used just as we have used remarks by the author as evidence in the past.

When we try to figure out elements of the story, it would seem that we would want to take all the evidence into account. Or not. At times readers want to put forward new ideas that run counter to the existing evidence or at least beyond where that evidence takes us. Such new thinking is all to the good, as long as those new thinkers understand they have the responsibility to show how the new theory fits within canon and semi-canon sources, or even how replacing that evidence makes sense for the story.

So when new theories are made that places Lyanna's death at somewhere other than where the canon hints at and the semi-canon points directly to, her dying at the tower of joy when Ned finds her on her deathbed in a room smelling of blood and roses, that all of that existing evidence is acknowledged, or just why we should ignore some of, or all of, that evidence. And if not, the new theories should bear some skepticism for not doing so. Not very outrageous in my point of view, anyway. And I don't really think it should be in yours.

This is all quite well said. Rather than require theories from every new voice, I think we are better served to simply reexamine the canon at hand, and see what narratives could emerge from it.

I do hope we can avoid the canon vs not-canon debate, this time around. There are semi-canonical sources for Lyanna's death to have occurred at the toj. That is not the same thing as canon. And that is not the same thing as giving birth there.

The sole canonical source connecting these events comes from the notorious fever dream, which as we all know GRRM has warned against interpreting in a literal fashion, and stated we have to wait for more info regarding the tower of joy. Until then, we can only infer, and WP's original OP was correct. Semi-canon =/= Canon. As I've long said, nothing trumps the text.

So, in looking at the text, I think both sides of the debate are completely within reason. I, myself, don't care who ends up being right, and I hope we can all move past that sort of thinking like grown ups... I'll be happy with whatever story GRRM ends up publishing, even if the tower of joy really was The Tower of Joy, and served Lyanna+Rhaegar as maternity/honeymoon suite. But until then, I see no reason not to explore the possibilities that emerge with the notion of Lyanna not being at the tower, and looking at the fever dream as being a compression of multiple events, rather than the revelation of a single one.

Reexamining one's perceptions can only be beneficial, no matter the situation.

[WeaselPie]

Weasel, I'm confused. Maybe you can explain something.

We all know Ran and GRRM communicate all the time. GRRM treats Ran as a reference for trivial things like which third son of which obscure house did which deed.

So it seems like Ran could just ask GRRM "Did Lyanna die in the TOJ or not?" and get a straight answer.

Has it been explained why that hasn't happened?

I asked pretty specifically - "Can you please confirm that GRRM personally confirmed that Ned found Lyanna inside the tower of joy?" and that question was based on reports that the info in the App was reviewed by GRRM in the form of questions sent to him by Ran and Co. and gone over with his assistant - or something like that, don't quote me.

But yes, that was the spirit of my question.

And the answer was - "In the case of Lyanna Stark, she's on that Stark tree, and there her death location is given as the tower of joy." etc. per links in the OP.

Ran used the 2008 (or 1999) family tree for his answer, so I guess there's a reason for that. What is not certain is if that the question was among the hundreds of questions sent to Ran for GRRM to review. Ran took the time to find the family tree to confirm the "semi-canon" status of the info, so I'm guessing my question was impossible to answer the way I asked it. But Ran can correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

My guess is that Ran didn't need to ask him that question for the App, probably for the reason you stated.

And about Ran responding about "her death in the red mountains, as Eddard attests", yeah no, that never happened in the books, so.

So I guess technically Ran answered my second question (from my original OP) and not my first question that I actually asked him in the wiki thread.

:cool4:

Anyway, I'm sure Ran will respond here if needed.

[WeaselPie]

/snip

Interesting things that Harwin confirms. That Winterfell servants heard the rumors about Ashara certainly, but he doesn't quite say they'd heard the rumors about Wylla. Also that they kept things from Catelyn. Which is intriguing because Cat says it was Ned who demanded that the servants stop mentioning Ashara's name. Kind of tells me that the Winterfell household had more to hide from Cat than she even knew about. ;)

About the OP, Lyanna died at the tower of joy, but there is no mention of Jon. Pretty sure some people think Jon was at Starfall anyway.

So it opens several doors if Jon is at Starfall, because it means Jon may not be Lyanna's - as you suggest. There are several timeline arguments about Ned+Ashara not working, but I doubt anyone has a dare I say canon timeline of events. The "accepted" timeline could be off by a few months and it's certainly possible, especially when we consider that JON being born at the toj has most certainly not be confirmed (obviously).

Jon being at Starfall is confirmed by Edric in the text, and I don't see much reason for him to be considered an unreliable narrator. Harwin just showed us that servants gossip, and sometimes servants don't gossip for the sake of their liege lord and family. Meaning it all stays as mysterious as GRRM intended.

Then we have Cersei's line about Ned stealing a baby and she obviously knew the rumors about Ashara

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?"

The stolen child accusation from Cersei is unique in the books. Did she not get the same memo that Barristan did, that Ashara had a stillborn daughter?

tons of great OP's in the works now, I hope

[Sly Wren]

Precisely the sorts of questions we should be asking. We know where Lyanna and Jon being in the toj takes us. That ground has been plowed hundreds of times. Let's plow some new earth. If they are not at the tower, how might the narrative change?

@Voice (either my computer or the site is flipping out, so I can't tell how this post will look--hence the quote and the "@"). Thanks! I'd do the cheers emoji, but I can't make it work at present.

Going off the implications of Jon's possibly being Ned and Ashara's--the problem I run into is Ned's taking the baby. Bringing the baby home is going to hurt Cat--he has to know that, even if they don't know each other very well. Ned may make questionable decisions, but he's no idiot. Plus, he brings Dawn to Starfall, tells the Daynes he's killed Arthur, leaves with Lyanna's bones, and thanks them for all their misery and trouble by taking Ashara's baby? Why? Why not leave the baby with his mother--comfort, etc.? If losing so much makes Ashara fling herself into the sea, why not minimize the loss and leave the baby--yes, bastard, fallen woman, etc. Still, it just seems mean.

But if the baby is still Rhaegar's--Ashara's death by flinging still makes sense. Possibly makes sense if Jon is Arthur's, too. Ned will raise the child as his own. But Ashara's flinging is still due to the other events.

Obviously the "semi-cannon" status opens more doors than it closes. And doesn't give us any more textual evidence to play with. But given what we know of Ned--having a hard time with he takes Jon from Ashara and leaves Ashara suicidal . . .

[wolfmaid7]

Then why did this

Never happen?

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense. This is not in the books. One cannot be referencing something that never happened as evidence that something else happened.

:ninja: I was just about to bring this up,soooooo what the frack???

[WeaselPie]

Precisely the sorts of questions we should be asking. We know where Lyanna and Jon being in the toj takes us. That ground has been plowed hundreds of times. Let's plow some new earth. If they are not at the tower, how might the narrative change?

I think a lot of this is a refresher course that neither Jon Snow, nor any baby, has ever been confirmed to be at the toj. That's not even a thing from an old family tree - the "fact" does not exist.

The Ned/Ashara scenario can actually make some sense if you consider that Aegon was being hidden at Starfall. Elia and Rhaegar trust the Daynes, and the child is half a Martell. It may have been a necessity for Ashara to fake her death (not a new thought) to get Aegon away to safety (also not a new thought). Possibly happy in the knowledge her child would grow up safe with Ned.

But I do agree that Ned hiding all this from Cat is strange. Unless he didn't want anyone coming after Jon for being a Dayne/SotM. Dunno. Not enough info, of course.

Then there is the possibility that Jon is actually Aegon. Yeah I know the SSM's and the supposed timeline. They aren't written in stone. "Jon Snow" (airquotes) was born around the time of the Sack. Nameday perhaps? :P

Bastards grow up faster. Really Luwin? Always a strange comment that makes no sense unless Jon appears to be more advanced and older than Robb.

We also have the possibility that Lyanna gave birth to a girl. Or twins.

And we have the possibility that Ned and Ashara had a child together much earlier in the timeline. Ashara was a maid to Elia. She could have agreed to swap her baby with Aegon to keep him safe, much as Gilly does with Monster and Steelsong.

If it was Ned and Ashara's baby who was killed by the Mountain, how horribly tragic. And not something Ned can ever explain to Cat or anyone else.

Which leaves open the possibility that the baby was not killed, but taken by Varys. Making fAegon a Stark/Dayne.

I could go on ;) but a lot of these are for other threads

[WeaselPie]

The sole canonical source connecting these events comes from the notorious fever dream, which as we all know GRRM has warned against interpreting in a literal fashion, and stated we have to wait for more info regarding the tower of joy. Until then, we can only infer, and WP's original OP was correct. Semi-canon =/= Canon. As I've long said, nothing trumps the text.

I wanted to repeat what Ran said: I very much doubt he has changed his mind about such a fundamental piece of information, but anything is possible until he actually publishes the book, hence why this information remains semi-canon. If someone asked him today about it and he confirmed that she died at the tower of joy, it would still be semi-canon, as well.

Because I see tons of arguments against interesting notions that begin with "you are wrong because George said in an SSM that...."

And I want to remind everyone that SSM's are also in the semi-canon category. Maybe people don't realize that or something.

Nothing trumps the text. :cheers: Voice!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think a lot of this is a refresher course that neither Jon Snow, nor any baby, has ever been confirmed to be at the toj. That's not even a thing from an old family tree - the "fact" does not exist.

The Ned/Ashara scenario can actually make some sense if you consider that Aegon was being hidden at Starfall. Elia and Rhaegar trust the Daynes, and the child is half a Martell. It may have been a necessity for Ashara to fake her death (not a new thought) to get Aegon away to safety (also not a new thought). Possibly happy in the knowledge her child would grow up safe with Ned.

But I do agree that Ned hiding all this from Cat is strange. Unless he didn't want anyone coming after Jon for being a Dayne/SotM. Dunno. Not enough info, of course.

Then there is the possibility that Jon is actually Aegon. Yeah I know the SSM's and the supposed timeline. They aren't written in stone. "Jon Snow" (airquotes) was born around the time of the Sack. Nameday perhaps? :P

Bastards grow up faster. Really Luwin? Always a strange comment that makes no sense unless Jon appears to be more advanced and older than Robb.

We also have the possibility that Lyanna gave birth to a girl. Or twins.

And we have the possibility that Ned and Ashara had a child together much earlier in the timeline. Ashara was a maid to Elia. She could have agreed to swap her baby with Aegon to keep him safe, much as Gilly does with Monster and Steelsong.

If it was Ned and Ashara's baby who was killed by the Mountain, how horribly tragic. And not something Ned can ever explain to Cat or anyone else.

Which leaves open the possibility that the baby was not killed, but taken by Varys. Making fAegon a Stark/Dayne.

I could go on ;) but a lot of these are for other threads

Wait, a double switch??? :eek: Shocking, and yet it could work

Jon being Ned's son doesn't work. Ned has to think that Rhaegar is the father. It's the only reason to keep the truth from Cat...and from Robert.

[Iron Stag]

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”

“No. Did he know her?”

“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”

This. This is very interesting, and precisely why we need to constantly re-examine the text for theories. Edric tells us right here, that Ashara Dayne never met Lyanna at Harrenhal, only that she met Eddard, Brandon, and Benjen. Which raises some interesting implications and questions

1) Where was Lyanna when Ashara met the Stark boys?

2) How long was Ashara with the Stark boys? Very important considering question #1. If Ashara only met them for a bit, that's one thing, but if she spent days with them, what was Lyanna doing throughout all this time? Remember, even if Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the knight only competed for 1 day, so if Ashara spent days with all the Stark boys, this still doesn't explain what Lyanna was doing.

3) We have no reference to Lyanna and Ashara ever knowing each other. Many people believe that it was Ashara who told Ned to go to the tower of joy, but Edric tells us here that Lyanna and Ashara never met. So this seems unlikely then

I'm sure there's other things that people can come up with, but this is a very important piece of information, that I don't think anybody has ever noticed. When Ashara Dayne met the Starks, Lyanna was not there