Heresy 170

[Sly Wren]

Before I read the following posts, I thought Ghost and Weirwood right away.

The addition of blue-rose crown is interesting, from Ned's point of view. Clear fodder for the faithful there, but what else might it mean? Winter roses, tears of blood. A Winter Queen with bloody eyes? Difficult to digest. I'm reminded of the blue eyes of death passage, where we have these same colors being used in contrast with each other, yet attributed to Lyanna. Eddard X:

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

In any case, I think Lyanna weeping tears of blood supports my theory that she is on life support in the roots of Winterfell's heart tree (which once looked up at Bran, knowingly). :cool4:

Bran cried red blood in the passage above. Ghost doesn't say much, but he always has eyes of blood. Then there's Bloodraven...

Lyanna is in the Crypts I tell ya!

Ah--so it IS "Fall of the House of Usher." Roderick (Ned) has prematurely entombed the doomed and cursed Madeline (Lyanna) with her tears of blood--and now she wants OUT! Like an Other! Flee!!!!

[wolfmaid7]

I know. I've been arguing against the idea quite vigorously, as you know, but that would be pretty awesome/tragic:

1. Ned kills the KG

Ned pulls down the tower

Ned starts making cairns

Ned finds Lyanna in the rubble

Ned says "Oh shit!"

Lyanna says "Promise me, Ned"

Ned's like "Yeah, for sure, Sis... whatever you want."

Lyanna dies smiling

Ned never knew what she was talking about

Ned sends her remains to Winterfell

Ned goes to Dorne to return Dawn

Ned is "comforted" by Ashara/Wylla

Ned comes home with Jon Snow

The "promise" haunts Ned because he killed her, and never knew wtf she was talking about ;)

Edit: This is why I say it explains "spattered with gore" and "a bitter memory." Howland knows the truth....

Hahaha that is hilariously tragic.

[wolfmaid7]

I think it would be more accurate to say that there's a wariness about blindly accepting one particular interpretation of the clues offered, particularly when that interpretation comes with so many warning flags.

Which reminds me, does anybody else recall that line where Robert complains about how everybody will only remember the ballad-singers' version?

I recall that it was a convo with Ned i'll try and locate it when i come back.If someone gets it first then cool.

[Sly Wren]

For this to be true, we must first presume that the Old Gods are equivalent to Ice, and that BR is then "Fire and Ice" rather than "Fire and Earth." To some of us, this is far from certain--I think that House Stark is uniquely connected to ice and the Others in a way that other Westerosi houses are not, and that only a Stark + Valyrian bloodline would yield fire and ice.

That's fair--but am thinking that whether or not the blood is the only determinative factor, BR and very possibly Rhaegar are trying to mess with ice and fire. May be why BR is such a mess--trying to do all this without enough of the "right blood."

But the power of blood per se--am not sold on the novels as having established that as a hard and fast rule. Mel likes to use it. Not yet sure I buy the argument.

[Sly Wren]

Thematically, I just disagree. How Ned's internal narrative is framed makes it seem like the two events are directly connected. Sure, he could be talking about some big promise years prior, but I don't think it jives with the way GRRM has written these things into the book. Also, the way he dreams about the ToJ, where his friends are described as "wraiths" and the Kingsguard were clear and bright ("these were no shadows"), strongly indicate to me that Ned's psyche paints him and his companions as the "bad guys" in this scenario.

I like this! Explains a lot of Ned's guilt. But it might also work both ways--Ned sees the deaths of these Kingsguard as unnecessary (war lost). And his friends--following hims turned them into wraiths--faceless but haunting him. So, I think the images could work for doomed romance or rescue mission or something else (the fight at the tower is still weird to me).

And I think I get what you're saying re: romance. There are indicators in that direction. But there's stuff in the wrong way, too--a lot listed above. And the idea that Rhaegar was a monster--am really hoping Barristan and Jaime have it right re: Rhaegar. No real reason to doubt them. But sadly that doesn't mean Rhaegar wasn't capable of screwing up or even doing something terrible--at least some evidence that he might have.

Bottom line: I agree. Digging in one's heels before the books are done doesn't get us far. Digging heels in when the book ARE done probably won't help either. So, I don't think exploring other possibilities, even completely conflicting options, can't be all that bad.

[e1kabong]

I like this! Explains a lot of Ned's guilt. But it might also work both ways--Ned sees the deaths of these Kingsguard as unnecessary (war lost). And his friends--following hims turned them into wraiths--faceless but haunting him. So, I think the images could work for doomed romance or rescue mission or something else (the fight at the tower is still weird to me).

Yeah, the ToJ memory is rife with possible symbolism for heretical thought, particularly since it's taking place as a "fever dream", thus enhancing the possibility that Ned's feelings about the situation is coloring half the picture. There's another strange twist to that imagery, as well. Here's the quote:

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life... Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows...They were seven, facing three...They waited before the round tower... their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear..."

If his own friends faces are lost to his memory, does this implicitly mean that the faces of the Kingsguard are fresher in his mind (ie - that they actually survived the ToJ)? Maybe the wraith imagery is a subtle tell of who died and who lived. Nothing guaranteed, of course, but another layer that makes that whole scene fascinating for speculation.

[Knight and Dayne]

That's fair--but am thinking that whether or not the blood is the only determinative factor, BR and very possibly Rhaegar are trying to mess with ice and fire. May be why BR is such a mess--trying to do all this without enough of the "right blood."

But the power of blood per se--am not sold on the novels as having established that as a hard and fast rule. Mel likes to use it. Not yet sure I buy the argument.

For a super-centenarian albino with only one eye, BR is doing alright.

For all the stock characters put in blood, we don't really see it do much. The only literal blood magic I can recall is Beric's flaming sword, but that likely has more to do with Thoros' fiery kiss of life than Dondarrion blood (which should be watery, not fiery, if we follow the House's storm king antecedents).

Mel loves kingsblood, but she's far from reliable. She doesn't kill any kings for her shadow children (that we know of!). I'm also a big fan of the Mel prophesy conundrum: does she use magic to make her visions come true, or does she use prophetic visions to make it look like she has magic powers? The latter seems likely in the case of the leeches.

[TheSmallOther]

Sooo much to catch up on! Crazy how fast you guys move when I'm busy, and how slow the threads seem to go when I'm not! LOL. Hopefully everything I write hasn't been ninja'd already... but here it goes.

Before I read the following posts, I thought Ghost and Weirwood right away.

The addition of blue-rose crown is interesting, from Ned's point of view. Clear fodder for the faithful there, but what else might it mean? Winter roses, tears of blood. A Winter Queen with bloody eyes? Difficult to digest. I'm reminded of the blue eyes of death passage, where we have these same colors being used in contrast with each other, yet attributed to Lyanna. Eddard X:

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

In any case, I think Lyanna weeping tears of blood supports my theory that she is on life support in the roots of Winterfell's heart tree (which once looked up at Bran, knowingly). :cool4:

Well, weirwood is an option. Of course, this would mean Lyanna is definitely not a Winter Queen but more related to Old Gods. Perhaps friendship with Howland Reed paid off finally. It's not very clear what role Rhaegar had there. Did he found a connection between his prophecy and Old Gods?

One may also remember heart trees weep red fluid sometimes, which is associated with blood. When do we see them weeping? When someone is sacrificed to them. Of course, it's just a coincidence but Lyanna's statue is weeping blood when... When her ex-fiancee Bob dies.

[Voice]

Well, weirwood is an option. Of course, this would mean Lyanna is definitely not a Winter Queen but more related to Old Gods. Perhaps friendship with Howland Reed paid off finally. It's not very clear what role Rhaegar had there. Did he found a connection between his prophecy and Old Gods?

Lyanna is of the north, she belongs to the Old Gods, regardless of her role and crown.

One may also remember heart trees weep red fluid sometimes, which is associated with blood.

Someone should certainly remind BC ;)

When do we see them weeping? When someone is sacrificed to them. Of course, it's just a coincidence but Lyanna's statue is weeping blood when... When her ex-fiancee Bob dies.

Here, I disagree. We've nothing to suggest they only weep when sacrifices are made. They're trees, so I think the sap flows freely.

[Black Crow]

For a super-centenarian albino with only one eye, BR is doing alright.

For all the stock characters put in blood, we don't really see it do much. The only literal blood magic I can recall is Beric's flaming sword, but that likely has more to do with Thoros' fiery kiss of life than Dondarrion blood (which should be watery, not fiery, if we follow the House's storm king antecedents).

Mel loves kingsblood, but she's far from reliable. She doesn't kill any kings for her shadow children (that we know of!). I'm also a big fan of the Mel prophesy conundrum: does she use magic to make her visions come true, or does she use prophetic visions to make it look like she has magic powers? The latter seems likely in the case of the leeches.

I'm rather of the opinion these days that blood doesn't matter in the way that some think. That is to say that it doesn't matter that its king's blood or peasant's blood, First Men or anybody else's blood. It just has to be human blood offered as a sacrifice. And that's why a heresy or so back I likened Stannis to the Night's King, not because he was sacrificing to the blue-eyed lot, which he clearly isn't but rather because of his willingness to ritually slaughter people not in the name of justice or even revenge, but to buy the favour of the gods. And ultimately this is how I currently see this working out, not by bringing about a victory of Ice over Fire or a balancing of the two, but rather through a severing of the connection between blood and magic.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, the ToJ memory is rife with possible symbolism for heretical thought, particularly since it's taking place as a "fever dream", thus enhancing the possibility that Ned's feelings about the situation is coloring half the picture. There's another strange twist to that imagery, as well. Here's the quote:

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life... Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows...They were seven, facing three...They waited before the round tower... their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear..."

If his own friends faces are lost to his memory, does this implicitly mean that the faces of the Kingsguard are fresher in his mind (ie - that they actually survived the ToJ)? Maybe the wraith imagery is a subtle tell of who died and who lived. Nothing guaranteed, of course, but another layer that makes that whole scene fascinating for speculation.

I really don't see it as a hint that the three Kingsguard survived the fight. After all its after he's awake and thinking clearly that he recalls burying them with the rest. Nevertheless its an interesting point and I'd perhaps be more inclined to read it as emphasising that the fight was primarily a rencounter with those three. In other words rather than riding to the rescue of Lyanna and finding them barring his way, Lord Eddard had set out that morning with the express intention of taking or killing those three men.

[Knight and Dayne]

I'm rather of the opinion these days that blood doesn't matter in the way that some think. That is to say that it doesn't matter that its king's blood or peasant's blood, First Men or anybody else's blood. It just has to be human blood offered as a sacrifice. And that's why a heresy or so back I likened Stannis to the Night's King, not because he was sacrificing to the blue-eyed lot, which he clearly isn't but rather because of his willingness to ritually slaughter people not in the name of justice or even revenge, but to buy the favour of the gods. And ultimately this is how I currently see this working out, not by bringing about a victory of Ice over Fire or a balancing of the two, but rather through a severing of the connection between blood and magic.

Guessing this means that you're not big on Jojenpaste.

We've also got several Iphigenias sacrificed for favorable winds. It's actually all very Greek - the gods one sacrifices humans to are cruel and fickle (like nature!). It's unclear whether the sacrifices are an effective or simply symbolic of faith. Favorable winds aren't exactly proof that the ritual worked. You can have favorable winds without human sacrifice, otherwise trade would be a great deal bloodier. The MMD/Dany/Drogo debacle goes horribly awry, and doesn't produce the intended result.

But how does one sever the connection between blood and magic?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Which reminds me, does anybody else recall that line where Robert complains about how everybody will only remember the ballad-singers' version?

Sure. It's right after he knocks Cersei to the floor with the back of his hand:

"You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not... that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong... no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar. Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." (1.39, EDDARD)

[Matthew.]

The context of that quote does not support the original argument - that Barristan and Dany's perception of Rhaegar and Lyanna is a product of romanticized re-imaginings from ballad singers.

[Black Crow]

Sure. It's right after he knocks Cersei to the floor with the back of his hand:

"You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not... that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong... no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar. Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." (1.39, EDDARD)

That's the one thanks and it really does make me wonder what was the story those songs told and whether they are the origin of the tales of star-crossed lovers and the dying Prince whispering a name.

[Voice]

The context of that quote does not support the original argument - that Barristan and Dany's perception of Rhaegar and Lyanna is a product of romanticized re-imaginings from ballad singers.

and...

That's the one thanks and it really does make me wonder what was the story those songs told and whether they are the origin of the tales of star-crossed lovers and the dying Prince whispering a name.

This stuff again huh?

Bran didn't hear that Rhaegar raped Lyanna from a singer, and the same goes for Dany and Barristan regarding R loving L. The act of families knowing and sharing their family history is not dependent on the travelings of minstrels.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

That's the one thanks and it really does make me wonder what was the story those songs told and whether they are the origin of the tales of star-crossed lovers and the dying Prince whispering a name.

My guess any song King Robert heard wasnt about star crossed lovers or the singer wouldnt be singing it much longer lol

[Black Crow]

It all comes back to to the business of conflicting stories. Bran says rape, Robert says rape, Danaerys says love and Baristan seems to buy into it too. Theon dreams of spattered gore. We can argue about this and will no doubt continue to argue about it until the truth is known, but the point is that its not as straightforward as it seems.

[Black Crow]

My guess any song King Robert heard wasnt about star crossed lovers or the singer wouldnt be singing it much longer lol

I wouldn't count on it. He seems very bitter.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I wouldn't count on it. He seems very bitter.

yeah did u see who he was married to!!! hell yeah he's bitter