The Eunuch Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I know that he is a spy. But why would the Tyrells accept someone as Loras' squire who is not highborn? Loras is the bloody heir to Highgarden; one day he'll be one of the most, if not the most, powerful lords in Westeros. No way do the Tyrells accept some random commoner as his squire? Olyvar is first introduced as Loras's squire in season 3, and at that moment, if I'm not wrong, Littlefinger is still Master of Coins. So now you're telling me that the Master of Coins, who is said to provide money for important things like Royal Weddings, Hand's Tourney and even the City Watch, is totally incapable of placing one of his pawns as a squire in the castle and lie about him? Given he quite publicly ran LF's brothel it is quite ridiculous. Everyone would know he is in LF's employ, and even if he weren't in another lord's employ who would disgrace their family name by taking a brothel keeper to court as their squire? As I explained before, Littlefinger was in charge when Olyvar was hired. And yes, Olyvar is a terrible witness against Loras. So what? Have you forgotten that Littlefinger wants to help Olenna? Do you think that aspect of Olyvar's life won't be used against him? It's one of the obvious reasons that Loras will be freed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I already answered to you about the birthmark. Yes it's a weak reason to arrest him, and Marg lying is even weaker. You criticize this as if it was something stupid with the show, while it's clearly the point in the story : the charges are weak. That's the point. It's on purpose. Loras and Marg will probably be freed. The whole idea is the same as in the books : Cersei's plot doesn't work and it backfires. The charges against Margaery initially are quite strong. Pycelle confesses to her asking for Moon Tea, she has no hymen and a knight confesses to bedding her. It's only after Osney confesses to the truth and the people she has been accused of sleeping with have been arrested and questioned does the evidence appear weak, so much so that the HS releases her into the custody of Randyll Tarly. And the birthmark isn't weak evidence. It isn't evidence at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasanil Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 As I explained before, Littlefinger was in charge when Olyvar was hired. And yes, Olyvar is a terrible witness against Loras. So what? Have you forgotten that Littlefinger wants to help Olenna? Do you think that aspect of Olyvar's life won't be used against him? It's one of the obvious reasons that Loras will be freed. It would actually be the opposite, it strengthens the case against Loras. Given that he is 1) publicly known to be in someone else's employ and 2) his lowly socially compromised station as a brothel-keeper why would anyone in their right mind ever keep him as a squire if not for the gay sex he provides Loras? It is pretty much the only explanation that makes a lick of sense as to why he would be squire to the heir of House Tyrell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Olyvar is first introduced as Loras's squire in season 3, and at that moment, if I'm not wrong, Littlefinger is still Master of Coins. So now you're telling me that the Master of Coins, who is said to provide money for important things like Royal Weddings, Hand's Tourney and even the City Watch, is totally incapable of placing one of his pawns as a squire in the castle and lie about him? How would LF get this guy into Loras' service? Did he suggest him to the Tyrells? Because one of the first things the Tyrells would want to know about any potential squire is 'what family does he come from?' Don't tell me that they never even asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I am clearly decrying the stereotype to which Loras is (arbitrarily) being made to conform, rather than endorsing it, which would seem to undercut the "homophobia" argument, wouldn't it? Since you don't have some kind of magical scrying glass that lets you peer into the secret hearts of strangers on the Internet and infallibly discern their true motivations on the basis of a few snippets of text, let's stop with the tedious and juvenile name-calling. Actually Loras is shown having at least TWO relationships (both without substantial romantic, as opposed to merely sexual, content), the first with Renly -- and since the transition between the two is in no way coordinated it severely undercuts the idea of him having any actual romantic devotion to Renly as he did in the books. Also you seem to neglect to mention the fact that he hopped into bed with Olyvar literally immediately after meeting him for the first time! And then there is, again, the gratuitous and lengthy discussion about what his wedding clothes should look like and his fantasies about his dream wedding, not in the books and in perfect conformity to the popular stereotype of the frivolous and shallow gay man (not to mention he acts like a total awkward closet-case around Sansa on the shower, whereas in the books he treats her with respectful courtesy, even though he has no reason to). And this is all done because it is the only way ignorant Western audiences totally without serious knowledge of history can process one man loving another man romantically: as part of a universal "sexual orientation" forever carved in stone and frozen in time. Love one man and I guess you can love just about any, right? You're clearly decrying no stereotype at all. Men having sex together is not a stereotype. Gay men having sex is not a stereotype. Relationships without substantial romantic is not a stereotype either, and you don't need to be gay to do that, a lot of straight men do it too. And in Loras's case, there is a romantic aspect since he's always with the same guy and they are talking about going to Dorne (even if it's just a dream). And just look how Loras is affected when Olyvar appears as a witness in the trial... And as for "stereotype" about clothes that you describ in the show, it's a bit stupid, considering the fact that in the books he's the Knight of the Flowers and member of the rainbow guard and also always described as handsome and with long hair, plus look at the description of Renly (frivolous...). But I think we get your point : you're okay with gay characters when they are just hinted and secret, but when they are shown in bed together you consider it a "stereotype" (because of course, gay men are always in a platonic relationship, they never have sex :rolleyes: ). You're okay with a character that is a fighter and gay as long as he's never seen having a gay relationship, because it's "sterotype" and that would "ruin" is character. Again, grieved enduringly for his lost beloved, entered into a life of solemn chastity and knightly service as a way of honoring his memory, continuing to conduct himself honorably even amidst the insanity and degeneration of the royal court, etc. Loras is not a POV in the books, so we have no idea of what he's doing. You have no idea of his "life of solemn chastity", it's just your assumption. Yes he's shown mourning Renly, so what? Do you really think that a 20-something man will stop having sex for the rest of his life just because his former lover is dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 How would LF get this guy into Loras' service? Did he suggest him to the Tyrells? Because one of the first things the Tyrells would want to know about any potential squire is 'what family does he come from?' Don't tell me that they never even asked. Why are you talking about the Tyrells all the time? Do you think Loras is unable to choose his own squire? The first time we see Olyvar, he brings a cup to Loras after his training (and Loras is surprised because he's never seen him before). Littlefinger could easily hire a cup bearer in the Red Keep, since he's Master of Coins, remember? And Loras probably made him his squire after they became close, exactly like Loras was Renly's squire. Such a level of nit picking is beyond comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Loras is not a POV in the books, so we have no idea of what he's doing. You have no idea of his "life of solemn chastity", it's just your assumption. Yes he's shown mourning Renly, so what? Do you really think that a 20-something man will stop having sex for the rest of his life just because his former lover is dead? I think the phrase 'once the sun has set, no candle can replace it' sums up Loras' attitude at that moment. He's joined the KG, who swear to a life of chastity. Will he never have sex again? Probably not. But the point is that he's young and romantic; at that moment, he can't see himself ever loving another person. That's why Tyrion remarks about his youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Why are you talking about the Tyrells all the time? Do you think Loras is unable to choose his own squire? The first time we see Olyvar, he brings a cup to Loras after his training (and Loras is surprised because he's never seen him before). Littlefinger could easily hire a cup bearer in the Red Keep, since he's Master of Coins, remember? And Loras probably made him his squire after they became close, exactly like Loras was Renly's squire. Such a level of nit picking is beyond comprehension. Of course the Tyrells would look at whomever Loras intends to take as a squire. Both his father and grandmother would look at Olyvar and ask 'who is he? What family does he come from?' And Loras was page and squire to Renly before they got close, not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 There is precious little evidence (in the books) that JonCon is "gay." He loved one man. He may have even had sexual feelings for that man. His affections were entirely singular: there is no evidence of a general trend of finding men attractive. Ditto Loras with Renly: Loras is a man (a manly man, in the books, not a pathetic shallow stereotype of a fop as he in the books) who happened to love and have sex with another man. There is no evidence in the books that I can recall of this being a general trend with him. In both cases, once their beloved die, both men appear to live chastely. Actually, Jon is gay because GRRM says so. In the book, it's not as easy to catch as first time. His thoughts about Rhaegar are very romanticised and platonic: his hair, his harp, etc. Even Sansa has a bit more sexual thoughts about men than he does. Idem for Myles Toyne (who I think could have been his lover at some point). He speaks about his smile and heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I think the phrase 'once the sun has set, no candle can replace it' sums up Loras' attitude at that moment. He's joined the KG, who swear to a life of chastity. Will he never have sex again? Probably not. But the point is that he's young and romantic; at that moment, he can't see himself ever loving another person. That's why Tyrion remarks about his youth. The candle metaphor is about love, that doesn't prove that he won't have sex again. You seem to forget that he was in the King's Guard for Renly too, does that prevented him to have sex? Of course the Tyrells would look at whomever Loras intends to take as a squire. Both his father and grandmother would look at Olyvar and ask 'who is he? What family does he come from?' And you really think that Littlefinger, Master of Coins of Westeros (who is in charge of nearly all the people who work at the Red Keep), the same man who managed to murder a king and a Hand (and also smuggled one of the most wanted person in Westeros out of the capital, and pretend she was his niece), you really think that this man is totally incapable of lying about the origins of a cup bearer? Yeah that makes perfect sense! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 And you really think that Littlefinger, Master of Coins of Westeros (who is in charge of nearly all the people who work at the Red Keep), the same man who managed to murder a king and a Hand (and also smuggled one of the most wanted person in Westeros out of the capital, and pretend she was his niece), you really think that this man is totally incapable of lying about the origins of a cup bearer? Yeah that makes perfect sense! :rolleyes: *Sigh* Of course LF can lie. But a lie has to be realistic. How does he pass off a common-born brothel keeper as a highborn? Who does he say Olyvar is? Again, what family is he from? They could have avoided all this fuss if they had simply made Olyvar a highborn who becomes Loras' squire and Littlefinger bribes. But then of course he couldn't be a brothel keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Despite GRRM dweling a lot on realism, some knights of his are still very "romantic". There is Loras' candle speech and there is also Bonifer Hasty, who didn't join the KG but he chose the Maiden after he couldn't have Rhaella. It's not impossible that Loras has chosen chastity. Look at Barristan (and his thoughts about Ashara Dayne) as well and the rest of the KG. Except two of them, looks like they all have vowed to keep their pants on their place. Even JonCon seems to be all about celibacy after Rhaegar died. And Jon himself seems to be all done with love after Ygritte. I don't see why is odd that Loras is pretty much done with love and sex after Renly's death. ETA: Just like the "All women are chaste" trope is sexist, the "no man is a virgin" is sexist as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Of course LF can lie. But a lie has to be realistic. How does he pass off a common-born brothel keeper as a highborn? Who does he say Olyvar is? Again, what family is he from? Firstly, he was not a brothel keeper at that moment. He was just a whore. He became brothel keeper after he succeeded in his first mission for LF. And you seem to believe that everybody has ID cards, but sorry, that didn't exist... It's not written on Olyvar's face that he's a prostitute in LF's brothel. Nobody knows that, except the gay clients of LF's brothel, and if one of them meets Olyvar with Loras in the Red Keep, they would never say publicly that they know a male prostitute. "Hey look! It's the male prostitute I fucked last night in Littlefinger's brothel! And he's the squire of Loras! Shame on him!!". :laugh: And why should Olyvar be highborn? Squires are not all highborn, in real life and in the books too (look at Hugh of the Vale for instance, and it's just the first one that comes to my mind). The king's squires are highborn because it's a priviledge, but not all squires in Westeros are highborn. They could have avoided all this fuss if they had simply made Olyvar a highborn who becomes Loras' squire and Littlefinger bribes. But then of course he couldn't be a brothel keeper. That wouldn't make sense, actually. Your highborn would come out of nowhere, and would accept to have sex with a man just because he's bribed? And also betray the brother of the Queen? You think that makes more sense? Littlefinger knows Olyvar because he is one of his prostitutes, and he uses him because he is probably his most handsome gay prostitute and he bet on the fact that Loras would be seduced. And Olyvar can't refuse, since he has no other option than being prostitute (contrary to your highborn squire who could lose everything). That makes total sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Littlefinger knows Olyvar because he is one of his prostitutes, and he uses him because he is probably his most handsome gay prostitute and he bet on the fact that Loras would be seduced. That makes total sense. No, it does not. It's like, if my husband/boyfriend dies, anyone could expect I would jump into bed with the most handsome guy someone puts in front of me. This is D&D relying on the oldest and stupidest of the tropes about homosexuals. AAAAAAAAND look what example this page gives: Game of Thrones: Downplayed by Ser Loras Tyrell; he is rather easily seduced by an attractive male prostitute, and exchanges significant glances with the openly bisexual Oberyn Martell not long after his lover Renly Baratheon is killed. He mostly comes across as this in comparison to his literary incarnation, who falls into a deep depression after Renly's death, is apparently celibate, and shows signs of being a Death Seeker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.P. Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 as part of a universal "sexual orientation" forever carved in stone and frozen in time. Love one man and I guess you can love just about any, right? Most people are either gay, straight or bi from a young age and are stuck that way for the rest of their lives. It's not too much of a stretch to assume, not given additional info, that if Loras can love one man, he can love others. How many people do you know that don't have a fixed sexual orientation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 That wouldn't make sense, actually. Your highborn would come out of nowhere, and would accept to have sex with a man just because he's bribed? And also betray the brother of the Queen? You think that makes more sense? Just make him a Cuy, Appleton or Fossoway or something. And why does he have to have sex with a man? He could just be passing on information to LF in exchange for money (or lands, titles, marriage etc.); he doesn't have to sleep with Loras to do that. And there are ways for Loras to reveal his wedding that doesn't involve him sleeping with the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 No, it does not. It's like, if my husband/boyfriend dies, anyone could expect I would jump into bed with the most handsome guy someone puts in front of me. Renly was long dead when Olyvar appeared, it's not as if Loras was at Renly's funeral 5 minutes ago... If your husband/boyfriend dies, will you stop having sex for 30 years? Let's be honest. It makes sense for Littlefinger to hire one of his male prostitutes (and probably the most handsome) to have a spy in the Tyrell family. This is D&D relying on the oldest and stupidest of the tropes about homosexuals. AAAAAAAAND look what example this page gives: Game of Thrones: Downplayed by Ser Loras Tyrell; he is rather easily seduced by an attractive male prostitute, and exchanges significant glances with the openly bisexual Oberyn Martell not long after his lover Renly Baratheon is killed. He mostly comes across as this in comparison to his literary incarnation, who falls into a deep depression after Renly's death, is apparently celibate, and shows signs of being a Death Seeker. Please don't use that ridiculous website as an evidence of anything. The "oldest and stupidest of the tropes about homosexuals" is saying that gay men like to have sex? Really? How many men in this whole world don't like or want to have sex? How is that a stereotype? Put a 20 years-old sexy woman in front of any straight man and most of them will have sexual desire for her. Why should it be a "stupid trope" when it's about gays? And please, stop using the word "promiscuous" when there's nothing promiscuous. You try to accuse D&D of being homophobic and in the same post you say that Loras/Olyvar having sex is "promiscuous", which is homophobic. Two men having sex is no more "promiscuous" than two straight persons. Tyrion sleeps with whores all the time and yet nobody accused GRRM or D&D to depict dwarfs as promiscuous... Now Loras has sex with ONE persone and you say it's a "stupid trope" and "promiscuous". Your point is totally stupid and plain homophobic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam20 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Sorry to say that, but some comments here are really stupid.In the books, the Sparrows arrest Cersei and Marg for a few charges, but mostly fornication. It means that the Sparrows consider that unmarried people who have sex are sinners. And now, you're telling here that they would have no problem with homosexuality? They arrest people for fornication and you think they wouldn't care when two men sleep together? It's a "populist agenda" and a "political statement" from the show, really? What kind of stupidity is that? :dunno:Exactly my view. It's made pretty clear in the books that the Sparrows are a fundamentalist and revivalist movement of believers disillusionned by these wars and who wants the laws in the Seven Kingdom to be based exclusively on the Seven-Pointed Star. So obviously fornication and homosexuality doesn't work well with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Freypie Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You forgot Loras is labelled as fucking every stable boy in the country by Olenna (and Renly himself get same treatment this season). Olenna who is not even homophobe but rather gay friendly, so the viewer as all reasons to think she isn't lying.Clearly "gays" (in addition to looking like modern gays) are described as promiscuous in this show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You forgot Loras is labelled as fucking every stable boy in the country by Olenna (and Renly himself get same treatment this season). Olenna who is not even homophobe but rather gay friendly, so the viewer as all reasons to think she isn't lying. Clearly "gays" (in addition to looking like modern gays) are described as promiscuous in this show. I don't remember these lines but I trust you on this. However, in this topic we're talking about Loras and Olyvar and they clearly are in a relationship, there's nothing "promiscuous" about them. When someone here says that they are "promiscuous" just because we see them in bed a few times, it's homophobic, I'm sorry to say that. And now, even if Loras fucks every stable boy in the country, how is it different that the treatment of all straight men in the story? Tyrion fucks every whore in town (actually it's in a brothel of Winterfell that we meet him in the first episode of the show), Theon fucks every woman he meets (he even tries to sleep with his sister), we have countless scenes of brothel, orgies and rapes, yet, when two gay men are seen in bed, it's a "stupid trope" and a "stereotype"? How is that logical? This type of complaints only makes sense for nit pickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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