being gay a sin according to followers of 7 gods?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I can't believe people is using the argument "you are mad because he's having sex".

How would you feel if, in this season, Ellaria had showed up in bed with some random lover planning road trips and sharing stuff? Moving on?

We would feel that her love for Oberyn was not as strong as it's supposed to be.

No one says a person should become celibate after a partner dies, but that's not the same as jumping in bed to the first person you find. And even if you do, it's mostly due to morning and grief, not because you're ready to move on.

Did Cat have sex with other men after Ned died? No

Did Ellaria have sex with other wo/men after Oberyn died? No

Did Jeyne Westerling have sex with other men after Robb died? No

You know what? Because they were brokenhearted.

The only person who kinda had that kind of sex was Cersei, and Martin portrayed it in a negative way, she wanted a replacement for Jaime (who wasn't even dead) and used a young kid. But she barely had any feelings for him.

But of course, Loras had immediate sex with some guy because 1. All men are promiscuous, 2. All gays are promiscuous. That's what mostly stories in TV thing about men and homosexuals: they are all about the sex and have no feelings. You know who does not do that? Martin. He has a good share of sensitive men in his books. Look at Jaime. Brokenhearted as he is due to Cersei, he's still loyal to her in his way and he isn't going around looking woman just because he's turned out by them (like Pia or the other whore he noticed).

Rather than homophobic (or misogynistic), I think the right and more proper word to use about the show is sexist. Because it is sexist: it assigns judgemental and preconceived notions about men and women and take them as norm. Using certain tropes for sexes and genders is not bad itself, but stereotyping with them is wrong. And this happen when inept people try to use those tropes.

[Lady Blackmont]

^Bingo

[CarCrashFiance]

If anything GRRM is closer to your made up 1 or 2% figure (or just a little above if you count Cersei and Dany having lesbian experiences as "as homosexual as the red viper") than to the modern supposed numbers you pretend to be false.

The most exaggerated figures are that non-heterosexuals still make up less than five percent of the adult population. The realistic figures are that the number of non-heterosexuals is less than two percent. Show me the evidence please that 'ten percent' of the world is non-heterosexual. Even the prominent gay advocacy group out of UCLA that does extensive polling and research won't go above 3.5% for the total non-heterosexual population. And its job is to promote liberal values.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/15/what-percentage-of-the-u-s-population-is-gay-lesbian-or-bisexual/

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/health-survey-americans-gay_n_5587696.html

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/040615/dq040615b-eng.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-survey-gives-government-its-first-large-scale-data-on-gay-bisexual-population/2014/07/14/2db9f4b0-092f-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html

The CDC says non-heterosexuals are "less than three percent". You think that the CDC is some homophobic hate group? Making up numbers? Gays are likely two percent of the adult population. Things fluctuate highly depending on geography and sample sizes. But under the best surveying and polling techniques you'll find that gays are around two percent. There's nothing homophobic or political about facts and numbers. I don't think many gay advocacy groups care if gays are one percent or twenty percent....they want rights for 100 percent of gays. Why would they focus on numbers if they want rights for everyone? Lying about gay population statistics isn't something that rational scholars engage in ever. If you want non-political data it is out there. Gays are two percent of the adult population. And many reliable studies indicate that the number is closer to one percent than even two percent.

Again. I doubt GRRM know any of this. As apparently most of his readers are clueless as well. Which is why ASOIAF is not a good series of novels to reflect medieval or even modern values towards homosexuals. By the way I do not care about gay marriage or gay rights as an issue. I just know from reading dozens of books and studies that gay population estimates have always been exaggerated and that modern population sampling techniques have helped identify a more accurate picture of society. GRRM is part of a society where the media is using erroneous data. But he has obviously been influenced by the media as have D&D which is reflected in the novels and certainly on the show.

[Lord Freypie]

Ok I stand corrected, as long you weren't speaking about 1 or 2% of homosexuals but 1 or 2% of people identifying themselves as one when asked on the phone those numbers look correct.

Anyway, it still doesn't make them prevalent in asoiaf.

[Pies are coming]

I can't believe people is using the argument "you are mad because he's having sex".

How would you feel if, in this season, Ellaria had showed up in bed with some random lover planning road trips and sharing stuff? Moving on?

We would feel that her love for Oberyn was not as strong as it's supposed to be.

No one says a person should become celibate after a partner dies, but that's not the same as jumping in bed to the first person you find. And even if you do, it's mostly due to morning and grief, not because you're ready to move on.

Did Cat have sex with other men after Ned died? No

Did Ellaria have sex with other wo/men after Oberyn died? No

Did Jeyne Westerling have sex with other men after Robb died? No

You know what? Because they were brokenhearted.

The only person who kinda had that kind of sex was Cersei, and Martin portrayed it in a negative way, she wanted a replacement for Jaime (who wasn't even dead) and used a young kid. But she barely had any feelings for him.

But of course, Loras had immediate sex with some guy because 1. All men are promiscuous, 2. All gays are promiscuous. That's what mostly stories in TV thing about men and homosexuals: they are all about the sex and have no feelings. You know who does not do that? Martin. He has a good share of sensitive men in his books. Look at Jaime. Brokenhearted as he is due to Cersei, he's still loyal to her in his way and he isn't going around looking woman just because he's turned out by them (like Pia or the other whore he noticed).

Rather than homophobic (or misogynistic), I think the right and more proper word to use about the show is sexist. Because it is sexist: it assigns judgemental and preconceived notions about men and women and take them as norm. Using certain tropes for sexes and genders is not bad itself, but stereotyping with them is wrong. And this happen when inept people try to use those tropes.

How much time went through between Renly's death by mid season 2 and Loras and Olyvar's hook up by mid season 3? Remember Sansa had been tormented by Joffrey "for years". And where is it written that people who had their boyfriends killed refrain from sex forever? Why can't people think that their departed loved one would have wanted them to carry on living, and that his memory is honored by being happy instead of miserable?

Why Bronn has to sleep with a woman? According to your logic, anything can happen, so Bronn could have or have not slept with a man.

Thing is that Loras doesn't have to march and say "I am sleeping with X" That is not how we find 90% of things. Someone might have said something, seen something, heard something. It is not like your case is the only one where we would find out about Loras moving on. GRRM has countless ways at disposal of informing us that Loras moved on. He simply didn't use them. But he did make a point of saying to us how Loras feels about Renly.

Because the point is not about Loras not having sex. The point is about Loras not wanting to have sex with anything with a penis. Whether Loras has sex with someone after Renly's death is irrelevant, what matters is that as a character, he is not stipulated on that. Loras in TV series is all about his sexuality. He doesn't have a single characteristic, other than being gay. The producers went to quite a length to portray him that way. Seasons 3,4 and 5 has been about him being gay (it's not like even the first 2 seasons were any better) So, that is the problem here. Him being a face of homosexuality in the show, him being the "gay dude in GoT". There are so many things about Loras that could have been used. Even, when they cut Garlan and Willas, they could have added some more flesh to Loras. For instance, we could have had Loras being involved in Purple wedding, possibly the same way Garlan was. Or that he has been nice to Sansa like Garlan was on her wedding. To portray some of those things his book counterpart is all about. Protection of Margaery, care for homeland... If they did even one or two of those, no one would have cared if he slept with someone else. But, they did nothing. They just let him sleep around.

Well, Bronn could have slept with a man or not. Stuff going on off page can happen as long as it fits the characterization (I doubt Bronn would have been hosting honest "Robb Stark is awesome" parties, for instance). What we can't do is to assert those things happened. Even GRRM can't go around giving every detail of every character's life. Is it Randyll Tarly faithful to his wife? We just don't know - just because Brienne's chapters doesn't mention a mistress of Randyll doesn't mean we can affirm he didn't have one.

In the show, Loras shows himself as a warrior during seasons 1 and 2, when the Tyrells are fighting either for real or in tournaments. House Tyell has not been in any battle, tournament, skirmish or naval engagement since the Blackwater, and they are depicted as rich playboys, not as a family of warriors, as the Lannisters or Starks - see Mace Tyrell.

But the fact remains, when House Tyrell fought, Loras Tyrell fought, and fought well. At which point in seasons 3 to 5 do you expect him to fight? When he was caught. unarmed, outnumbered, surprised, and probably thinking his family would clear everything anyway? Whenever Renly is mentioned in his prescence, he is shown distraught. He's also shown as awkward in social situations (say, with Sansa or Cersei). And he also happens to refrain from celibacy.

But yes, I agree on something. It's a shame the show cut his murder of Robar Royce and the other guy. Probably part of their whitewashing of murderers.

[Dracarys Stormborn]

And now, even if Loras fucks every stable boy in the country, how is it different that the treatment of all straight men in the story? Tyrion fucks every whore in town (actually it's in a brothel of Winterfell that we meet him in the first episode of the show), Theon fucks every woman he meets (he even tries to sleep with his sister), we have countless scenes of brothel, orgies and rapes, yet, when two gay men are seen in bed, it's a "stupid trope" and a "stereotype"? How is that logical?

This type of complaints only makes sense for nit pickers.

There is no stereotype about straight men having tons of sex. There is, however, the extremely harmful stereotype that gay people have so much sex to the point where it's ridiculous. Renly and Loras are depicted as being so in the show, which could be seen as homophobic. Plus, making Loras promiscuous (if his grandmother is to be believed, which I think she should be) is completely the exact opposite of his book counterpart, so it's like the showrunners went out of their way to make Loras a stereotype. At least they're keeping Tyrion in character by whoring around. They changed Loras to one who sleeps around to make him seem more "gay". That's homophobic.

[ambi76]

It's a shame the show cut his murder manslaughter of Robar Royce and the other guy. Probably part of their whitewashing of murderers everybody.

If this was supposed to be a slight, let me assure you, that this Loras fan is extremely pissed off that this was cut out of the show too, because, yes, that's a very important part of Loras character in the books. But like we say D&D have not shown interest in anything about Loras except the gay part so far (the warrior part is a very distant afterthought). I'm also one of the rare female pervert fans that loves almost all the sexposition on the show, so Loras could fuck Oberyn, Lancel and Moonboy for all I know, if I was given some proper context for it (no time for that obviously and that sucks). Being bored out of his mind in Kings Landing is not proper/sufficient context IMHO.

ETA: The gay dude being awkward around womenfolk is also a bit too cliche for my taste (also a whitewashing, since book Loras is more rude than awkward with the woman he interacts).

[tormund's beard]

was he awkward around women ? or was just with cersei ?

[ummester]

The reason D&D changed the Loras plot arc is that they have a very powerful platform with the show for denouncing religious bigotry. GRRM really does not need to preach to his readers because very few folk who read fantasy buy into a bigoted world view. But the show is different, showing Jerry Fallwell with his bigoted rage hidden beneath the cloak of fake humility is important.

How the fuck did you come to that conclusion? There are all types of fantasy and all types of people that read the various types :D

[ummester]

I can't believe people is using the argument "you are mad because he's having sex".

How would you feel if, in this season, Ellaria had showed up in bed with some random lover planning road trips and sharing stuff? Moving on?

We would feel that her love for Oberyn was not as strong as it's supposed to be.

No one says a person should become celibate after a partner dies, but that's not the same as jumping in bed to the first person you find. And even if you do, it's mostly due to morning and grief, not because you're ready to move on.

Did Cat have sex with other men after Ned died? No

Did Ellaria have sex with other wo/men after Oberyn died? No

Did Jeyne Westerling have sex with other men after Robb died? No

You know what? Because they were brokenhearted.

The only person who kinda had that kind of sex was Cersei, and Martin portrayed it in a negative way, she wanted a replacement for Jaime (who wasn't even dead) and used a young kid. But she barely had any feelings for him.

But of course, Loras had immediate sex with some guy because 1. All men are promiscuous, 2. All gays are promiscuous. That's what mostly stories in TV thing about men and homosexuals: they are all about the sex and have no feelings. You know who does not do that? Martin. He has a good share of sensitive men in his books. Look at Jaime. Brokenhearted as he is due to Cersei, he's still loyal to her in his way and he isn't going around looking woman just because he's turned out by them (like Pia or the other whore he noticed).

Rather than homophobic (or misogynistic), I think the right and more proper word to use about the show is sexist. Because it is sexist: it assigns judgemental and preconceived notions about men and women and take them as norm. Using certain tropes for sexes and genders is not bad itself, but stereotyping with them is wrong. And this happen when inept people try to use those tropes.

So hormones have no effect on human behavior whatsoever Jon Con? We are all unique and special butterflys that somehow transcend our sexuality with our individuality, are we? I think you have an overly idealist viewpoint of what a human is.

[Lady Blackmont]

There is absolutely no facts to suggest that, say, someone who reads ASOIAF is a notch above the rest.

It is based on a couple of assumptions.

It accepts that:

1. Intelligence has an inverse relationship with bigotry.

2. People who read large books are more intelligent.

I guess it's possible, but absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.

[ummester]

There is absolutely no facts to suggest that, say, someone who reads ASOIAF is a notch above the rest.

It is based on a couple of assumptions.

It accepts that:

1. Intelligence has an inverse relationship with bigotry.

2. People who read large books are more intelligent.

I guess it's possible, but absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.

No, I don't even think there is any supporting evidence for intelligence having an inverse relationship with bigotry. I think bigotry, like morals, is defined by and entirely dependent on an individual or cultural POV - it is intolerance towards different opinions or types and every opinion or type has a counter, so anyone who accuses someone of bigotry could be seen as bigoted towards the person they accuse.

[RoamingRonin]

Loras sleeping with Olyvar doesn't bother me much but I think it would have gone over better if the writers did some hand-waving of it. Perhaps have Loras sleep with Olyvar because he misses having a male companion but he doesn't want a new lover. Tywin is notorious for loving Joanna but he slept with Shae. There are theories he had other whores and these theories are built on the idea that, well, men have needs. The same could have been done with Loras. Men have needs. Stalwart Shield couldn't copulate but he still wanted a female companion.

If there was a scene where Olyvar tries to get closer to Loras and Loras rebuffs him because "when the sun sets no candle can replace it" then, I think, those dissatisfied with his storyline might have been more accepting of it. Perhaps Olyvar feeling jilted could have been another reason why he betrays him to the High Sparrow. Even if it was just a simple, "I need you but I don't want you" kind of thing and Olyvar is totally cool with that because he's a whore... that would have been enough.

[ambi76]

was he awkward around women ? or was just with cersei ?

Well, he doesn't fare much better around Sansa either. Okay, it was (unfortunately/unprofessionally) pretty obvious that Finn hated that scene the way he acted it. What's with the grimacing and all.

The scene (apart from the ridiculous wedding dress planning) were for me the contrast to rude "Who the fuck are you? Would you please stop babbling about Robar and Renly!" Loras from the books is pretty stark. Owed to the difference in his plot of course, but still grating.

@ RoamingRonin: Yeah, like I say, give us some/any context for that stuff and I mean on the show not in Q&A sessions. We don't even know what the Olyvar/Loras relationship is? Fuckbuddies? Boyfriends? Prostitute and John? Probably not the latter since Olyvar seems to really have expertly hidden his double life from the court of Kings Landing. (Really? Nobody there knows that this guy is a whore and wonders why he is "squiring" for Loras? Oberyn? Tywin? Anyone?)