being gay a sin according to followers of 7 gods?

[Eldric Storm]

I am annoyed by this part and want to know where the creators of this show came up with this because I've yet to remember seeing this in the books. It's almost as if they had to make this a Catholic thing which annoyed me. I will probably no longer watch the series but I'm trying to factor the entire reasoning that the creators of the show are taking so many liberties.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

This is the case in the books too. People who are homosexual in the Seven Kingdoms try to hide it (except in Dorne). Their society is based on medieval society, which wasn't exactly LGBTA-friendly. It's not meant to be agreed with. With the change of god having seven faces instead of three, Martin did largely base the Faith of the Seven on Catholicism - hence the septons and septas. I read an article about that recently. It hasn't had as big a deal made of it in the books because there it's still secret to many people that Renly and Loras had a relationship.

[Jubal]

There are many places around the world today where homosexuality is considered a crime, both by the predominant religion and by the state.

[A Man Has Said]

I agree with the point of view of the OP.

My impression was that GRRM was fairly deliberate about trying to make Westeros represent a place where, even though the dominant Faith of the Seven has elements in common with Christianity, the Mosaic Code squeamishness about sexuality doesn't apply, or at the very least is severely diminished, and anyway not rigidly enforced.

That impression has endured through a couple of re-reads, so if there is any indication of a Mosaic prudishness in Westeros, it's somewhere in the realm that includes terms like; very subtle, well hidden and non-existent.

Imagine going back in time to the Medieval Britain that is represented in these stories. Do you really think that there would be so damned many brothels? Or that the owner of the largest and fanciest brothels in the capital city would also be Lord of the Exchequer? (Equivalent to Littlefinger's position as Master of Coin.) Obviously not.

As to the relationship between Renly and Loras, it's barely even mentioned at all in the books, but when it is it's treated as either a well-known and accepted fact or perhaps an open secret (which is really not a secret at all.)

The only reference I can remember offhand is a comment that Jaime makes on returning to KL after captivity at Riverrun to the effect, (said to Loras) "get out of my way, or my sword will find a way into you that even Renly couldn't find."

The SHOW on the other hand made a very big thing about the gayness of the two characters, who clearly didn't try to hide it from anyone in the first 4 seasons. It was only in the latter part of this latest train wreck of a season that, for narrative convenience, the Faith Militant decided that they would be far more prudish than the Faith were in general, in order to come up with a plot line that involved Loras being arrested. Lame, lame, lame.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In books we only have one character being gay as a pov and he doesn't feel remotely guilty about it. Considering he was planning on winning a war with the main purpose of gain Rhaegar's love and pretty much shoved their friendship in everybody's faces, I would say discretion is not something he was aiming for :dunno:

There are also two gay dudes in the Watch and no one cares.

There is also this one kid Tyrion meets in the SS saying he missed "his friend". Tyrion barely bats an eyelash about it.

So, HBO just pulled it from their asses in order to make a political statement that didn't work.

[jarl the climber]

Its not really clear where the Faith stands on this issue in the books. It could be that a more pious High Septon like the High Sparrow would condemn it. Outside of Dorne the the Westerosi are considered more uptight about sexuality at least by the Summer Islanders. There is some prejudice against Satin but he was a catamite, a lowborn male prostitute and that Jon had made a bad call promoting him to be his squire, there is a class issue there. There seems to be some toleration towards nobles who are gay, like Ser Lyn Corbray, Renly and Loras, they get a pass on it but people need them and their families, so there is a toleration that doesn't necassarily mean that its acceptable. Cersei is clearly prejudiced against Loras, she doesn't want a man like that near her son, all though Cersei is carrying on an affair with another woman. Victorian and his brothers seem to consider gays to be weak and unmanly. Its sort of vague but since we see few gay characters, most would probably hide it, indicates there is a prejudice against it.

[H.P.]

In books we only have one character being gay as a pov and he doesn't feel remotely guilty about it. Considering he was planning on winning a war with the main purpose of gain Rhaegar's love and pretty much shoved their friendship in everybody's faces, I would say discretion is not something he was aiming for :dunno:

There are also two gay dudes in the Watch and no one cares.

There is also this one kid Tyrion meets in the SS saying he missed "his friend". Tyrion barely bats an eyelash about it.

So, HBO just pulled it from their asses in order to make a political statement that didn't work.

Is it Jon Connington who is the gay PVO character? I think his gayness is very discreet, I didn't even know about it until I visited these boards.

Who are gay in the Watch?

[Ramsay Gimp]

There is certainly prejudice against gays in the books, but nothing to suggest it's considered an abominable sin

[jugdesh258]

In attempt to single out the issue, you make it seem like it was picnic for fornicators and adulterers.

They need to invent the magna carta ( in addition to light bulb) so people have civil rights, then they can fight for equal rights

[R4W13Y]

Its not really clear where the Faith stands on this issue in the books. It could be that a more pious High Septon like the High Sparrow would condemn it. Outside of Dorne the the Westerosi are considered more uptight about sexuality at least by the Summer Islanders. There is some prejudice against Satin but he was a catamite, a lowborn male prostitute and that Jon had made a bad call promoting him to be his squire, there is a class issue there. There seems to be some toleration towards nobles who are gay, like Ser Lyn Corbray, Renly and Loras, they get a pass on it but people need them and their families, so there is a toleration that doesn't necassarily mean that its acceptable. Cersei is clearly prejudiced against Loras, she doesn't want a man like that near her son, all though Cersei is carrying on an affair with another woman. Victorian and his brothers seem to consider gays to be weak and unmanly. Its sort of vague but since we see few gay characters, most would probably hide it, indicates there is a prejudice against it.

Just because it's a sensitive issue and is tolerated in special cases doesn't mean the High Sparrow's goal was to eradicate homosexuality from the realm (or at least KL). In fact, we know it wasn't in the books, since that wasn't their goal and they aren't shown hurting or arresting any gay members of the community. They have bigger fish to fry, both in the books and in the show.

I do agree that they view it as a sin, but not one condemnable by death like treason/regicide/kinslaying (as it is in the show).

[Varamyr'sSeventhSkin]

Is it Jon Connington who is the gay PVO character? I think his gayness is very discreet, I didn't even know about it until I visited these boards.

Who are gay in the Watch?

I never got the impression that Jon Connington is gay either.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Is it Jon Connington who is the gay PVO character? I think his gayness is very discreet, I didn't even know about it until I visited these boards.

Who are gay in the Watch?

It's in Melisandre's chapter. There is this one guy who was very hurt finding out a ranger died. Very subtle.

[SerWolfgang]

I believe that in the "Queer Customs of the South" part of TWOIAF that acceptance of homosexuality is one of the reasons that Septons want to "Shepard Dorne to the path of righteousness" so that implies that it is considered a sin by the Faith, though I reject the idea that its as serious as kinslaying or betraying the guest right.

[CarCrashFiance]

I am annoyed by this part and want to know where the creators of this show came up with this because I've yet to remember seeing this in the books. It's almost as if they had to make this a Catholic thing which annoyed me. I will probably no longer watch the series but I'm trying to factor the entire reasoning that the creators of the show are taking so many liberties.

D&D are Jewish. Most shows and movies that are run by Jews take shots, some veiled, some direct, at Christianity. Or take shots at white/European conservative values. This is nothing new. Steven Spielberg put a shot in War of the Worlds of a Church getting destroyed for fun. Terrence Winter (Jewish convert, Jewish wife) changed lines in The Wolf of Wall Street where the main character says "Synagogue" in the book to "Church" in the film. Terrence Winter went to so far to remove Jewish references from Wolf of Wall Street that they released the film on Christmas. The original "Wall Street" film was the same, the books were all Jewish finance crooks, but the movie made everyone nondescript White. I was shocked at how different Wolf of Wall Street the film was from the books.

This is something that Bill Maher talked about on this show, how if you mock Christianity you get a free pass, but if you mock Islam or Israel/Jews you get run through the wood chipper being called an Islamophobe or Antisemite. There is a climate in the media right now where almost any criticism of Israel is treated as being Neo-Nazi ranting. And any criticism of Islam is seen as "bigotry" and "phobia". It's just where American entertainment and the media is right now. Bill Maher, a very left leaning Jewish Hollywood inside, couldn't get through a sentence on HIS OWN SHOW before being called a "racist" when he talked about Islam.

If you're just noticing this now you've been not paying attention to Game of Thrones.

You think it's a coincidence that D&D keep recasting White/European styled characters with African/Black actors? D&D aren't White like GRRM. They don't really care about the European history that the books are partially based off of. GRRM obviously was very influenced by White European history when he created his books. Just like Tolkien was influenced by European history when he wrote LOTR. D&D come from a very different culture. If you've got Jewish friends and conservative Christian friends then you'll know they often have very different beliefs.

I doubt GRRM cares at this point. When Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Areo Hotah, and Salladhor Saan, become magically black from paper to screen....it should be obvious that there is a cultural agenda on the show regarding the casting. D&D deliberately have no respect for the white characters in the books and simply want to shoehorn in black faces for "political correctness". And the HBO audience is very liberal so the leftist applaud the changes rather than respect an accurate portrayal of the novels that the show is based on.

GRRM obviously likes European history. And loves medieval fantasy. Combining the two to create some of the greatest novels every written. But I highly doubt that the same history books and novels that GRRM read and were influenced by, have ever been presented to D&D. They don't care about what influenced GRRM. They simply don't. And I doubt most "hardcore" ASOIAF fans do either. That's why they have no problem casting characters based on European history with actors with African features and skin. And why most fans think root and cheer when blacks are cast on the show replacing their white counterparts from the books. They don't understand that European and Christian history are not something that D&D are likely even aware of. Their people have their own history, religion, and culture, which is not reflected in ASOIAF....but it is HIGHLY reflected in the HBO adaptation.

[GrammarYatzy]

people say JC is gay and the blackfish.

[kaboom987]

It is most definitely a crime, as it has been mentioned in the books before.

They did take some liberties like arresting ser Loras, but it's simply to compensate his story line.

[A Ghost of Someone]

In books we only have one character being gay as a pov and he doesn't feel remotely guilty about it. Considering he was planning on winning a war with the main purpose of gain Rhaegar's love and pretty much shoved their friendship in everybody's faces, I would say discretion is not something he was aiming for :dunno:

There are also two gay dudes in the Watch and no one cares.

There is also this one kid Tyrion meets in the SS saying he missed "his friend". Tyrion barely bats an eyelash about it.

So, HBO just pulled it from their asses in order to make a political statement that didn't work.

HBO is just trying to make the faith more hated than they normally would be, partially to make Cersei and Margeary and yes, Ser Loras more sympathetic. They are all traitors for the userpation of the throne and therefore any suffering is hard for me to feel sorry for them but the gay bashing by the faith is just one more layer to make people hate them. Then again it is sex outside marriage in their eyes, therefore adultry, so whatever. Ser Loras needs to escape via "Midnight Express" and get to Dorne/Porne and live happily ever after.

[jarl the climber]

Just because it's a sensitive issue and is tolerated in special cases doesn't mean the High Sparrow's goal was to eradicate homosexuality from the realm (or at least KL). In fact, we know it wasn't in the books, since that wasn't their goal and they aren't shown hurting or arresting any gay members of the community. They have bigger fish to fry, both in the books and in the show.

I do agree that they view it as a sin, but not one condemnable by death like treason/regicide/kinslaying (as it is in the show).

I agree that it is not any sort of capital offense in the Martin universe. In the books the Sparrows don't even have the authority to close the brothels, all though they do stage protests on the Street of Silk, Cersei admonishes them for it. The Faith also makes mead and wine on their monastery farms so they are not teetotalers either. Would they be above using something like this to discredit an opponent, probably not but the Faith would likely have members who are gay just like any other demographic. Its still a little gray to me in the book universe but thats not what the book is about.

[A Ghost of Someone]

people say JC is gay and the blackfish.

there is contextual evidence of JC being gay. The Blackfish seems like a true soldier who lives for it and does not want to be bothered with a wife and kids but loves his brother's children and grandchildren. Also, it surprises me that he and Ser Barristan both became famous during the War of The Nine Penny Kings (The Last Blackfyre Rebellion)and Ser Barristan became a Kingsguard. After Robert's Rebellion, there were 5 openings for Kingsguard and the Blackfish was apparently not considered for one of them. Ser Jaime admired the Blackfish as a child as he was already a legend so is that not funny him not being atleast offered Kingsguard, he seems perfect for it?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It is most definitely a crime, as it has been mentioned in the books before.

They did take some liberties like arresting ser Loras, but it's simply to compensate his story line.

Where it has been mentioned in the books?