When did the Andals leave Essos?

[Free Northman Reborn]

 

The world book says that according to some maesters, early Andals were raiding the North before Wolf's Den was built, which is actually why Wolf's Den was built.

 

I am very happy with that. I am sure no one is suggesting that there were zero Andal raiders crossing the Narrow Sea, ever, until one day suddenly the massive invasion of the Vale began. Ser Bartimus makes it quite clear that Jon Stark built the Wolfsden to protect the White Knife from sea raiders. Well, who would these sea raiders possibly be, that far back in the past, if not the people living on the closest part of Essos, which was of course the inhabitants of Andalos.

 

So the first Andal raiders likely started landing in the North more or less around the time Jon Stark built the Wolfsden. But this was some time before the main Andal invasion of the Vale. And more than a thousand years before Theon Stark defeated Argos Sevenstar's invasion of the Weeping Water.

[Mithras]

The also give several other options for these raiders and im sorry but i don't agree that the Andals make the most sence, to me it seems that the Sistermen are the most likely candidates after al it is there constant raiding that promps the Rape of the Sisters. Heck the Andals are actualy given as the least likely option.

 

Sistermen were not mentioned to be raiders and slavers nor they were considered among the alternatives.

 

The other options are the forebears of the men of Ib or slavers of Valyria out of Volantis.

 

Andals are the most reasonable option among these. Slavers from the Volantis are least likely because these incursions should predate Volantis.

[Free Northman Reborn]

 

Sistermen were not mentioned to be raiders and slavers nor they were considered among the alternatives.

 

The other options are the forebears of the men of Ib or slavers of Valyria out of Volantis.

 

Andals are the most reasonable option among these. Slavers from the Volantis are least likely because these incursions should predate Volantis.

 

Note, I would not say these raiders were Andals exclusively. Ibbenese pirates and Sistermen might well have been among them. There is no reason why there could not have been a multitude of different raiders trying to target the fertile and navigable White Knife riverbasin.

[Mithras]

Another important thing:

 

Harrag Hoare was the King of the Iron Islands during the reign of Theon Stark. Harrag’s son was Ravos the Raper who was slain by Theon Stark but the ironmen returned under Harrag’s grandson, Erich the Eagle. Later the ironmen again raided the North under the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy. Rodrik Stark reclaimed Bear Island after the Old Kraken died.

 

Therefore, all of these ironborn kings were driftwood kings. 

[direpupy]

I don't have the book in front of me right now becouse i am not at home, i do remember the forebeares of Ib and the slaver from Valyria but i have to acmit im not sure about Sistermen so you may actually be right Mithras, i wil check when i get home but if i am wrong i do apoligise to you.

 

However we are talking of raiders so this was before the Andals decided to stay and settle, therefore it does not change the timeline of the Andal invasion as proposed by Free Northman.

 

Your claim on Harrag directly contradicts a factual statment on page 185 of the Worldbook Mithras and this is something i checked last night with the book in front of me.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Another important thing:

 

Harrag Hoare was the King of the Iron Islands during the reign of Theon Stark. Harrag’s son was Ravos the Raper who was slain by Theon Stark but the ironmen returned under Harrag’s grandson, Erich the Eagle. Later the ironmen again raided the North under the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy. Rodrik Stark reclaimed Bear Island after the Old Kraken died.

 

Therefore, all of these ironborn kings were driftwood kings. 

 

No, this is clearly a mixing up of different Ironborn kings. Note that the implication is that Rodrik Stark reclaimed Bear Island not long after Loron Greyjoy's death. Yet in the crypts, Rodrik lived fairly recently, and indications are that he won Bear Island and gave it to the Mormonts a mere 500 years ago. He certainly lived in the last 1000 years.

 

Loron Greyjoy certainly was a Driftwood King, and he certainly conquered Bear Island. But this would have been more than 3000 years ago, before the Greyiron dynasty and long before Theon Stark's time. Most likely Loron was not the first or last Ironborn king to conquer Bear Island. Nor was Theon Stark the first Stark king to win it back. It seems to have changed hands many times over the millenia. Just like Cape Kraken.

 

So the timline is:

 

Loron Greyjoy conquers Bear Island maybe 3500 years ago.

 

It is taken back by the Starks around 3300 years ago.

 

The Greyirons take over the Iron Isles 3000 years ago. The Andals begin their invasion of the Vale.

 

The Hoares join with the Andals to get rid of the Greyirons 2200 years ago.

 

Harrag Hoare takes Bear Island from the Woodfootes 2000 years ago. Theon Stark takes it back and kills Ravos the Raper.

 

The Ironborn raids on the North continue.

 

At some point some Hoare king conquers Bear Island again.

 

500 years ago Rodrik Stark wins it back and gives it to the Mormonts.

[Mithras]

Yet in the crypts, Rodrik lived fairly recently, and indications are that he won Bear Island and gave it to the Mormonts a mere 500 years ago. He certainly lived in the last 1000 years.

 

...

 

500 years ago Rodrik Stark wins it back and gives it to the Mormonts.

 

What do you base these on?

[Free Northman Reborn]

 

What do you base these on?

 

Rodrik appears very close to Torhenn Stark in the crypts.

[Mithras]

Rodrik appears very close to Torhenn Stark in the crypts.

 

I previously posted in this thread that the king lists are not reliable. In AGoT, Theon Stark appears before Brandon the Shipwright. In ACoK. He appears after Brandon the Shipwright. That is why I asked whether there could be two Theon Starks.

[Free Northman Reborn]

 

I previously posted in this thread that the king lists are not reliable. In AGoT, Theon Stark appears before Brandon the Shipwright. In ACoK. He appears after Brandon the Shipwright. That is why I asked whether there could be two Theon Starks.

 

No, what is not reliable is the Ironborn history. Ran said as much, stating that there are clear contradictions because Martin wrote it seperately, before matching it with the histories of the other regions. So you can expect the Ironborn history to change significantly to fit in with the other more reliable information in all the books, including the World book.

[Mithras]

BTW, I am really bored with this thread. Why the hell should I do George’s work for him?

 

No matter where you look, the World Book is full of inconsistencies. Some readers might like it as more realistic but for me, these are failures on author’s behalf in a high fantasy.

 

As I said before, George did not do his homework properly. He is barely doing that since ASoS was released.

[Mithras]

No, what is not reliable is the Ironborn history. Ran said as much, stating that there are clear contradictions because Martin wrote it seperately, before matching it with the histories of the other regions. So you can expect the Ironborn history to change significantly to fit in with the other more reliable information in all the books, including the World book.

 

But Harrag the driftwood king is from the North section whereas Harrag Hoare the hereditary king (who is also mentioned to be a contemporary of Theon Stark) is from the "Andal tainted" Hoare line given in Iron Islands section.

[Free Northman Reborn]

BTW, I am really bored with this thread. Why the hell should I do George’s work for him?

 

No matter where you look, the World Book is full of inconsistencies. Some readers might like it as more realistic but for me, these are failures on author’s behalf in a high fantasy.

 

As I said before, George did not do his homework properly. He is barely doing that since ASoS was released.

 

Mithras, you seem to have a particular historical view that you are trying to justify throughout your posts. A very specific timeline theme that you are desperately trying to validate. What is that theme exactly?

 

Does it perhaps originate in your desire to stretch Valyrian history further back in time than the 5000 years we have been given in the books, in order to make them the original creaters of dragons around the time of the Long Night? And is that why you need to push the Andal invasion further back in time, in order to support your view that the Valyrians were active players as far away as Andalos, as far back as 6000 years ago by forcing the Andals to migrate at the traditional date of the timeline? A date that has since been clearly disproven by a multitude of better sources?

[Free Northman Reborn]

 

But Harrag the driftwood king is from the North section whereas Harrag Hoare the hereditary king (who is also mentioned to be a contemporary of Theon Stark) is from the "Andal tainted" Hoare line given in Iron Islands section.

 

There was a Harrag that was the contemporary of Theon Stark. But the error crept in when they claimed he was a Driftwood king, when instead he was an Andal Hoare. Clearly Theon Stark interacted with the Andals. We know that from his confrontation with the greatest Andal warlord to ever invade the North - Argos Sevenstar.

 

We also know that the Andals took 1000 years from landing in the Vale to conquering the Iron Isles. And that during this timespan the Iron Isles were ruled by the Greyirons. This makes it quite clear that the era of the Driftwood kings ended before the Andal invasion of Westeros began.

 

So, from these simple facts on their own (quite aside from the multitude of other pieces of evidence which we have talked about separately), we can quite clearly establish that the Harrag Hoare that Theon Stark warred with was not a Driftwood King.

[direpupy]

Both the Harrag in the North section and the Harrag in the Iron Islands section are mentioned together with a son called Ravos The Raper so it has to be the same Harrag, it is rather confusing, but i think personaly (and you by no means have to agree) that Harrag was not a Driftwood King becouse he is so specificaly mentioned in the Iron Islands section as one of the vew worth mentioning during several centuries of Hoare rule.

[Mithras]

Mithras, you seem to have a particular historical view that you are trying to justify throughout your posts. A very specific timeline theme that you are desperately trying to validate. What is that theme exactly?

 

Does it perhaps originate in your desire to stretch Valyrian history further back in time than the 5000 years we have been given in the books, in order to make them the original creaters of dragons around the time of the Long Night? And is that why you need to push the Andal invasion further back in time, in order to support your view that the Valyrians were active players as far away as Andalos, as far back as 6000 years ago by forcing the Andals to migrate at the traditional date of the timeline? A date that has since been clearly disproven by a multitude of better sources?

 

What I am holding on to is the original timeline given in the first book. If George retcons it, then I blame George's lack of pre-planning.

 

I think the original dragon creators were not the Valyrians. Far from it. After the Long Night, Old Ghis was the first empire to rise. The Sarnori and Yi Ti followed them. Valyria was formed perhaps millennia after them. Valyrians somehow learned to recreate the dragons which they perfected after a long time only 5000 years ago and used it to wipe out the Old Ghis.

 

The original dragon creators were the people of the Great Empire of the Dawn who came to Westeros long before the First Men ever came.

[Free Northman Reborn]

 

What I am holding on to is the original timeline given in the first book. If George retcons it, then I blame George's lack of pre-planning.

 

I think the original dragon creators were not the Valyrians. Far from it. After the Long Night, Old Ghis was the first empire to rise. The Sarnori and Yi Ti followed them. Valyria was formed perhaps millennia after them. Valyrians somehow learned to recreate the dragons which they perfected after a long time only 5000 years ago and used it to wipe out the Old Ghis.

 

The original dragon creators were the people of the Great Empire of the Dawn who came to Westeros long before the First Men ever came.

 

The original timeline has been retconned, yes. Or at least, it has been fleshed out with more detail and realism. It is obvious by now that the Andals did not arrive 6000 years ago. 3000 years ago seems to be the more likely date based on the latest information.

 

Similar to how the claim that Urron Redhand lived 5000 years ago is now clearly seen to be an exaggeration, with his likely date being 3000 years ago.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We also know that the Andals took 1000 years from landing in the Vale to conquering the Iron Isles. And that during this timespan the Iron Isles were ruled by the Greyirons. This makes it quite clear that the era of the Driftwood kings ended before the Andal invasion of Westeros began.

No, that is just an unfounded assumption. The 1,000 years claim isn't based on anything solid and it is just such a magical number to round up towards that I won't put much stock into.

[Free Northman Reborn]

No, that is just an unfounded assumption. The 1,000 years claim isn't based on anything solid and it is just such a magical number to round up towards that I won't put much stock into.

 

Oh, I am sure that the round 1000 years number is an approximation, yes. But without any other numbers to go by, we have some facts that tie in together.

 

1. First, we know that the Greyiron rule ended with the Andal conquest of the Iron Isles.

2. Secondly, we know that the Greyiron dynasty supposedly lasted 1000 years.

3. Thirdly, we have the rough indication that the Andals took 1000 years from landing in the Vale to conquering the Iron Isles.

 

Now, as much as  all references to "1000 years" should be treated with appropriate suspicion and caution, it is quite reasonable to assume from the above that the Greyiron dynasty's beginning (Urran Redhand) more or less coincided with the start of the Andal invasion of the Vale. Now, given the likely inaccuracy of "1000 year" round figure estimates, the events might well vary by a few centuries either way.

 

But roughly, it gives us a basis for estimating that Urran Redhand's ascencion to the Throne of the Iron Isles happened broadly in the same period as the start of the Andal invasion. At worst, we could probably place these two events within 500 years of each other, to be safe.

 

And it allows us to place a limit on the time that elapsed between the start of the Andal invasion, and Theon Stark/Harrag Hoare's time.

 

To be more specific:

 

What we see most of the time is that round figure time estimates are usually overstated. Meaning that a thousand year estimate is more likely to in fact be 500 years than 1500 years. And the further back in time you go, the more it is overstated. Hence we see that the thousand year war with the Barrow Kings was more probably around 200 years in duration, according to Yandel. But that was very far back in time, long before Jon Stark even built he Wolf's Den. In fact, this war was shortly after the Long Night. So one can understand greater margins of error creeping in when looking that far back in time.

 

In the case of the Greyiron dynasty, let's say it only lasted 500 years instead of 1000. And in the case of the Andal invasion, let's say it only took 500 years to reach the Iron Isles, rather than 1000. In both cases, the 1000 years are more likely to be an overstatement than an understatment. That would mean that the two events still roughly coincide, only they sit around 2500-2700 years in the past, rather than 3000-3200.

 

Then we give 200-300 years for the various disappionting Andal Hoares to rule after Harras Stumphand, until the great Harrag Hoare arrives to war with Theon Stark approximately 2000 years ago.

 

What is signficant here is that the Andal invasion's beginning is roughly seen as a similar number of centuries before Harras Hoare's time as is Urran Redhand's life. And not multiple thousands of years earlier.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Indeed, that is my point. Putting the start of the Andal Invasion at about 2,500 years ago, give or take, makes more sense than 3,000 years.