When did the Andals leave Essos?

[AlaskanSandman]

King of Winter seems to refer to the Kings of Winterfell before they had conquered the entire North. The King in the North title seems more appropriate after the Starks made the transition to ruling all of the North - likely after they conquered the Boltons.
 
As for Theon being a King of Winter while Jon Stark wasn't - that is not possible, given that Jon Stark lived before Theon Stark.

Idk how your coming to this conclusion but let me explain. Its mentioned many times. Theon was a king of winter before the starks subdued the Boltons. Jon was a king in the north, after boltons had been subdued. Further more, jon was father to Rickard who was father of Rodrik, all kings in the north. Rodrik won bear island from the iron born after the death of Loran Greyjoy. This didnt happen before Theon the hungry wolf. Theon is likely the ones who united the Boltons to the Starks. Theon being mentioned as King of Winter is in the main books and hard to argue against.

[AlaskanSandman]

I think they were referring to the lack of punctuation and proper capitalisation. Not to mention spelling.
For the most part, posts with any one of those issues can be dealt with by a careful reading. The post they were referring to though is still very difficult to read and understand even with slow, careful, multiple readings of it. I found it very difficult to follow and comprehend while simultaneously trying to translate the spelling errors and where punctuation might be. Even having reread multiple times I'm still not sure I understand any of it. And it makes my eyes hurt just looking at it. But then again I have always been a stickler for spelling and punctuation. And capitalising names and beginning of sentences.

Yea its called free writing, your just trying to get your thoughts out (me in this case). Punctuation and grammar are not the emphises tho. I get you tho, i know plenty of people with the same thing. It was a free formed thought spewing out at 4am. Explained in away to detail how i arrived to my conclusion. Not a pretty written out chronology detailing the specific events and people included. I hope to have that soon though. Im having a few issues resolving the Nights king events, the Barrow king and Azor Ahai.
Im not bashing anyone for not following my ramble and will be doing a concise layout.
Big thing i was getting at is the 2 seperate first men invasions at different locations and times. The inplications of this answering a few discrepensies. First is the mixed tale of the First king, then the Narrow Sea being an inland fresh water sea. It proves the shorter time theory in my opinion and answers why some houses have warging abilities. It explains why people say the north is bigger than the other 7 realms though currently is only a third there size.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Oh boy.

Let me suffice to say that you are incorrect, Alaskansandman.

Jon Stark lived long before Theon Stark. And the Rodrik who won Bear Island was not the grandson of Jon Stark. He was a much, much later Rodrik.

I know the wiki at one point portrayed it that way, but that was a mistake, as it is pretty clearly contradicted in the books.

[AlaskanSandman]

Oh boy.
Let me suffice to say that you are incorrect, Alaskansandman.
Jon Stark lived long before Theon Stark. And the Rodrik who won Bear Island was not the grandson of Jon Stark. He was a much, much later Rodrik.
I know the wiki at one point portrayed it that way, but that was a mistake, as it is pretty clearly contradicted in the books.

My research is based off the books. Not some wiki. I research from the books becuase the person telling the information is equally as important as the information it self. If this is your only point then im quite content as it changes little to nothing about my general point in my post.

[AlaskanSandman]

Oh boy.

Let me suffice to say that you are incorrect, Alaskansandman.

Jon Stark lived long before Theon Stark. And the Rodrik who won Bear Island was not the grandson of Jon Stark. He was a much, much later Rodrik.

I know the wiki at one point portrayed it that way, but that was a mistake, as it is pretty clearly contradicted in the books.

   Ok, after checking my notes i found that your right about Rodrick not being Jon's grandfather as i had indeed accidentally gotten that from a wiki. I normally double check everything with the books but apparently i missed that one and must apologize for that error. That being said it doesnt change a whole lot to my overall theory. As far as Theon being older im basing off the info of there deeds and the layout of the crypts (based on 3 accounts) which is a lil hard to fully lock down admittedly. Either way tho, Bran says in AGOT that there are Kings of Winter on the top level of the crypts that theyre on. Maester Luwin then calls them Kings in the North. I dont believe that Jon could also have built the Wolfs Den south of the Boltons with out the Boltons having already submitted, debatable yes but thats what im working on. Also theyre are no other kings listed that arent on that top level other than Bran the Builder, his possible son, and Bran the Breaker. This leads me to believe along with other evidence in the south that the whole true histories isnt as long as the maesters have painted it.

   Im hoping some one else is seeing the same thing but can help lock down the theory. Like, i believe the Nights King is the Last Hero as the Last Hero because the last hero had 12 companions. Including the hero this would make 13. The Night's king happens to be the 13th L.C. that served for 13 years, and in the show is shown with 12 companions. Thats alot of 13s being hit over our heads i feel hinting at their relationship. The Night's Kings Corpse bride makes me think of Azor Ahai and his wife, which i dont believe Azor Ahai is the hero's true name. I feel like he's a Dayne because of Dawn then. Old Nan says he was named Brandon and a brother to the king in Winterfell, Brandon the Breaker. Theyre parents really liked the name i guess? So maybe he is a Stark but also a Dayne? Maybe one of the brothers is a bastard. Is either of them Brandon the Builder?

   If you believe the Andal invasion was 6000 years ago, you may think all of this stupid. If you believe the Andal invasion was only 2000ish then you may see something helpful that i havent

[AlaskanSandman]

Sorry for spelling and grammar but this is a better explanation for now.

 

 For anyone on this thread thats interested and believes in the 2000 year mark roughly for the Andal Invasion. Here is an extended theory on the shorter time line.

         

        THE FIRST FIRST MEN MIGRATION across the arm of Vale (as mentioned at least in the Stormlands section of AWOIAF, mentioning the Narrow sea having possibly been an inland fresh water sea) under the leadership of The First King/Barrow Kings and war with the Children of the Forest. The Northern lands unbroken at this time stretched south to the vale where they had entered and the Riverlands. Possibly even the Westerlands and the Casterlys and the Hightowers of Old Town. The Iron Islanders who had no boats at the time did not find Islands, but lands connected to the main land till the breaking had separated them from the main lands and left nothing but a few islands. Making the North truly larger than the other realms combined, tho later only a third their size. 

 

        THE PACT UPON THE GODS EYE & ORDER OF THE GREEN MEN & GARTH THE GREEN. Garth i believe was born from the union of Men and the children as per the pacts many agreements. Garth having green skin and horns just like that of the Green men of the Gods Eye. 

 

        THE SECOND FIRST MEN MIGRATION & THE AGE OF HEROS. across the arm of Dorne led by other men who found Garth the green already in the lands, and the Hightower already standing. (I dont know what caused they're flight but it may be Old Ghis or Valyria) Garth breeds with many first men women sowing the seeds for many of the houses of the Reach and 2 outside of the Reach and starting the Age of Heros. The Starks of Winterfell and the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.  (House Crane is said to be able to warg into Cranes so this is likely why house Stark has Warging abilities). House Stark forms from Brandon the Bloody Blade (who killed many Children of the Forest and Giants) who is possibly father to Brandon the Builder, that or they are one and the same. Lann (fathered upon Florys the Fox or Rowan Gold Tree by an Andal Adventurer) goes east to take Castemere from the Casterlys. House Dayne (with some sort of connection to Valyria) follows a falling star to where it crashes to build starfall and eventually a Sword as strong and sharp as valyrian steel. Mean while in the east, the Bloodstone Emperor (Red) betrays his sister and begins worshiping a fallen stone. Taking a tiger woman to wife and enslaving his people. His father was the Opal Emperor while his betrayed sister was the Amethyst Empress (Amethyst is purple while Opal is multi colored but Black Opal looks the colors of the Night Sky). Durran Gods Grief builds Storms End with the help of Brandon the Builder possibly, that or children? 7th time his castle survives the wrath of the gods (he wed the daughter of the Sea god and the goddess of the Wind Elenei. Sounds kinda like the Drowned god and the Storm god. Also, 7 storms maybe what inspired the Andal Faith and may be the storms that broke the arm of Dorne and such.) Time of Adara and the Ice Dragon. Her Uncles armies attired in the Green of Garth in the South while the Army in the North attired in Black and Orange, possibly Asshai or Valyria, tho possibly the Dustins as the sigil has a Black crown against Black.

 

        BREAKING OF THE ARM OF DORNE & THE VALE, FLOODING OF THE NECK & THE LONG NIGHT. The Long Night begins after the Breaking of Westeros. Azor Ahai makes the sword of heros after tempering it through his wifes heart. The Last Hero travels in search of the children with the help of 12 companions, a dog, a horse, and a dragon steel sword. He finds the children it is believed for after the Men of the Nights Watch band together against the Others (likely this means simply that the Order of the Nights Watch is formed). Brandon the Builder builds the Wall with the aid of the Children of the Forest. The 13th Lord Commander becomes the Nights King and serves for 13 years with his Corpse bride after seeing her North of the Wall. They enslave the men of the watch and are later stopped by Brandon the Breaker and Joramun, King beyond the Wall. The Night's King supposedly named Brandon and brother to Brandon the Breaker. His Corpse Bride supposedly a daughter to the Dustin King, descendants of the Barrow Kings though forced to take a new name due to curse upon the Tomb of The Barrow King. Likely placed there by the Starks or Children of the Forest. Curse said to turn any pretender to the title of First King turn corpse like in appearance. (Brandon the Bloody Blade, The Dayne who made Dawn, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero, Brandon the Builder, and the Night's King allllll likely the same guy. This due to the fact that him and Brandon the Breaker are only half brothers. As is our current 3 heads of the Dragon. Tyrion= son of Aerys and Joanna, Jon= Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Dany= Rhaegar and Ashara. Ill get back to that.

 

       ANDAL INVASION & END OF THE AGE OF HEROS. About 2300 to 2000 years ago after the fall out of the Long Night, Ser Artys Arryn/ the Winged Night lands in the Vale fleeing the onslaught of the Valyrian expansion. Displaces the Royces in the Vale and the Andals begin to spread. Theon Stark fights the Andals after the Boltons Bend a Knee and join sides. Theon first King to switch from the King of Winter to King in the North. Jon Stark builds Wolfs Den after to secure the North. Many houses in the South fall to the Andals whose invasion stopped about 1700 years ago after the scouring of Lorath. With the Andals come the Faith of the Seven and at some unknown time the Maesters out of Old Town, also comes the Dragon slayers of the Andal Knights, with possible aid of the Septons or Maesters. Maesters accused in current stories of killing the Targaryen Dragons during the Dance. Valyria turns her attention to the Rhoynar and by 1000 years ago the Rhoynish invasion of Dorne takes place.

 

       Much of the history from here connects to the well known and documented history of current events. 

 

       Now a note on the 3 heads of the dragon theory. The prince that was promised would be born from the lines of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen. The prophecy doesnt say from the union of the two, it simply says the lines of the two siblings. Aerys has Tyrion with Joanna which is a well known theory and makes sense with dating and logic. Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna was a lil harder for people to fully take tho it was the most popular theory. For a reason. It makes the most sense given allll the information given. Jon being born around the sack of K.L. rules out any other father as Ned is too Honorable and his brother died too early the year before for it to be him. (Tho i did like that theory). Dany was the trickier person to figure out. Aerys and Rhaella supposedly have Rheagar and then its yearsss before they have another attempt. Rhaegar is born the same year that Rhaella wed Aerys and its quite possible Rhaegar isnt Aery's kid despite looking like the perfect Targaryen. Aerys only has Tyrion and Viserys, a deformed kid in which he mistakenly mocks Tywin for.  ;) Rhaegar is the son of Rhaella and Ser Bonifer Hasty. Rhaella and Aerys attempt to have kids numerous times who all are stillborn and die shortly after. Viserys is the only son born of their union and he's sickly and weak. Rhaella's last attempt results in a still birth that kills her and the incident is played off as Ashara who secretly has Rhaegars other kid. Rhaegar had been wooing Ashara at the Tourney of Harrenhal but ended up falling for Lyanna instead due to meddling of Howland after visiting the Gods Eye and Garths fellow Green Men. Ashara is dishonored by these events, tho Barastan cant do anything because its his future king, that or Barastan didnt know who had upset and dishonored her.

 

       I have a couple other theories, namely about house Martell and what their play for power is backed behind.

[joluoto2]

I was somewhat with you until you mentioned Adara and the Ice Dragon. Then you lost me completely. Too much inconsistence in the short story for being in any way canonical. I have considered the Ice Dragon being possible canonical many times, but every time I have tried to fit in in the canon it just ende with me having to admit it just can't fit.

 

I see Adara's World as a Proto- Westeros. A World GRRM borrowed alot from when he made up Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

Content update:

 

According to reports on Arianne 2, Arianne remember that House Mudd ruled over the Riverlands 'a thousand years ago', providing another hint that the Andals migrated to Westeros in the more recent past rather than 6,000 years ago. If you are no historian and tell people something happened 'a long time ago' you use 'a thousand years' only if you think it is closer to 1,000 than to, say, 5-6,000 years, right? In such cases you talk about 'thousands of years ago'.

 

Additionally, the cave where Arianne's party stumbles on paintings of the Children of the Forest is also said to have belonged to them 'a thousand years ago' which would also be inaccurate if the Andals had come 6,000 years ago since the Children lost their footing in the Stormlands around the time of the Andal invasion.

 

That suggests to me that George is pretty much done with the old chronology and its implications from AGoT. He has retconned the whole thing to a time line encompassing a shorter period of time which details are still unclear (i.e. when exactly the Long Night truly was now, when the Andals came etc.).

[Mithras]

"A thousand years ago" should not be used to date events unless we have very good reasons to do so.

[Nittanian]

"A thousand years ago" should not be used to date events unless we have very good reasons to do so.

 

Yeah, based on Ran's comments here, it seems "a thousand years ago" is intended as "long, long ago" instead of a specific time.

[AlaskanSandman]

I was somewhat with you until you mentioned Adara and the Ice Dragon. Then you lost me completely. Too much inconsistence in the short story for being in any way canonical. I have considered the Ice Dragon being possible canonical many times, but every time I have tried to fit in in the canon it just ende with me having to admit it just can't fit.
 
I see Adara's World as a Proto- Westeros. A World GRRM borrowed alot from when he made up Westeros.

That was just my attempt to fit Adara's story. Really not important into my overall theory

[Lord Varys]

Well, it could have been 2,000 years ago, not about 6,000 years. That's the point there. George continuously does that, and Arianne isn't exactly stupid or uneducated. We all know roughly when exactly the pharaohs ruled, right? So we don't say a thousand years ago when we should know it was, say, millennia ago.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We know.

 

18th century people and earlier didn't.

[Free Northman Reborn]

A few comments on the Arriane references:

 

Firstly, Arriane is not exactly portrayed as an intellectual or academic genius in the books. If anything, she comes across as a bit of a spoiled brat, focused on sensual enjoyments and the physical pleasures in life.

 

Secondly, while she may be educated, I highly doubt that her knowledge of history exceeds that of Lord Blackwood's bookish son, or that of Rodrik the Reader, or that of Maester Yandel, the author of the World Book. And while all of these sources express a measure of doubt over the accuracy of the historical timeline, none of them place the Andal migration more recently than 2000 years ago.

 

So a reference to 1000 years ago for House Mudd ruling the Riverlands is patently incorrect. We have a large number of independent sources that corroborate various historical events and persons as living either during or after the Andal invasion, and all of these place the Andal invasion around 2000 years in the past.

 

In short, I truly think that Arriane does not have a clue about historical timelines, and to her 1000 years is no different than 10,000 years as a figure of speech. 

[Mithras]

This is the same Arianne who didnot read any of the books Doran gave her.

[Lord Varys]

Could be. I just thought I should mention that. On the other hand, though, I don't think we can assume that Catelyn - knowing that Alyssa Arryn supposedly lived 6,000 years ago - had a better or worse education that Princess Arianne of House Martell. Catelyn was just a woman, whereas Arianne was raised as the heir of Dorne.

 

In that sense, Arianne may easily be more closer to the truth than Catelyn back in AGoT who perhaps only remembered some erroneous singer's or septon's tale about Alyssa Arryn she was been told in her youth.

 

Choosing 'a thousand years ago' rather than 'thousands of years ago' (which would be imprecise, too) is a deliberate choice on George's part, though. It could be part of his intention to retcon the time line (which was really apparent in TWoIaF) or it could be part of his intention to paint various characters (Theon, too, although he is actually pretty stupid and disinterested) as not all that well-educated.

 

I'm not saying the Andal invasion was 1,000 years ago. But it could have been much closer to a 'a thousand years' than six thousand years now.

 

BBE,

 

medieval guys and 18th century people knew that the pharaohs lived in biblical times, right? You know, from Book Exodus and all. That was prior to the Roman Empire and the time of Alexander the Great, which means they knew roughly that it was prior to known non-Biblical history.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Could be. I just thought I should mention that. On the other hand, though, I don't think we can assume that Catelyn - knowing that Alyssa Arryn supposedly lived 6,000 years ago - had a better or worse education that Princess Arianne of House Martell. Catelyn was just a woman, whereas Arianne was raised as the heir of Dorne.

Well, Cat was raised as heir of the Riverlands until Edmure was born about ten years later. And in contrast to Arianne, she applied herself.

 

BBE,

 

medieval guys and 18th century people knew that the pharaohs lived in biblical times, right? You know, from Book Exodus and all. That was prior to the Roman Empire and the time of Alexander the Great, which means they knew roughly that it was prior to known non-Biblical history.

Yes, but they were still off by up to 3,000 years.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Agreed that Martin has been moving to retcon the timeline for some time now. However, I think his approach is more along the lines of casting doubt over the validity of the original timeline, than to suggest any specific alternative (such as 1000 years for example).

 

I suspect that the outcome will be a condensed timeline, but not so much that the arrival date of the Rhoynar in Dorne ends up corresponding with the Andal invasion. That is too much of a radical change to well established history.

 

Similarly, the most recent date for the Manderly arrival in the North is 900 years ago, but even that post dates thousands of years of existence of the Wolf's Den that preceded the founding of White Harbor.

 

We know Theon Stark lived during the Andal invasion and he lived a long, long time before the Manderlys arrived.

 

Not to mention that the Manderlys were already Andals before the migrated to the North. So the Andal invasion had long since overrun the South by the time the Manderlys moved North.

[Lord Varys]

FNR,

 

of course, 1,000 years makes no sense at all. But it may be much closer to the actual dates than 6,000 or 5,000 years.

 

BBE,

 

we actually don't know precisely when Edmure was born, but him being ten years younger than Catelyn is a little bit far-fetched. Even so, Edmure would have become heir to Riverrun at his birth, moving Catelyn into a secondary position at once. At the age of ten you usually haven't gotten to the finer points of history yet - meaning that there would be a difference between Catelyn's 'womanly education' and Arianne's education as the future Princess of Dorne. Cat's sources on Alyssa Arryn seem to be fancy tales whereas Arianne could actually have read or been taught history on the basis of the works of those historians who advocated a much shorter time line.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, given that Doran complains that Arianne never picked up a history book: No.