When did the Andals leave Essos?

[Jaak]

 

And yet the Greyjoys we see all have a decent knowledge of Ironborn history. Balon mentions Urron Redhand in his first appearance, Victarion thinks of Dagon Greyjoy in his POV, Aeron recalls the histories of the Kingsmoots. The Ironborn are always going on about their ancient heroes. So "official history" matters to them, whether it's written down or not

Oh yes. They have a significant amount of oral history.

The problem is that without popularity of reading, Hoares would have had trouble of altering the oral history to their interest. Yes, singers and storytellers at the Hoare court could have invented and then retold stories about made-up Hoare ancestors. And Greyjoy or Drowned Men guests hearing them might have nodded politely. But once out of Castle Hoare, they would have retold their own stories, true or false - not the Hoare inventions. And after Hoares went extinct, their oral stories would have been forgotten.

Whereas the tale of Urron Redhand is retold by other houses - not just by the long extinct Greyirons. If other houses and Drowned Men believe it enough to retell it then it is accepted as a part of Iron Islands history.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Direpuppy

 

That is an unfounded criticism. Argos Sevenstar was not the first Andal invader of the North. He was merely the greatest, leading the largest army. In fact, far from being the first, there is indication that he may have been the last.

 

Meaning that he came at the tail end of hundreds of years of Andal invasions of the North. In fact, if the Andal invasion of Westeros largely ended after Theon's invasion of Andalos, it would REQUIRE the Andal invasion of the Iron Isles to have been completed before that point.

[direpupy]

That is a falid point Free Northman, and i think jou may be right on Argos sevenstar. 

 

But having said that the Andal invasion of the Iron Islands thas not requer Essosie Andals they could just as wel have been invaded by the decendents of the Andals who conquered the Vale and Riverlands thus i disagree that the Andal invasion of the Iron Island is requiered at this point.

 

But it is possible that you are correct and if so yes it would then fit the timeline.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Direpuppy

 

Sure. The Andals invading the Iron Isles would have come from the Riverlands, Westerlands etc.

 

But it is very plausible that this process would have been completed prior to Harreg Hoare and Theon's time.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure Theon Stark is necessarily connected to the Raping of the Three Sisters or had to have lived after the Greystark-Bolton rebellion. Theon supposedly made a lot of If I remember correctly then Yandel claims the Red Kings were subdued shortly before the first Andals arrived, but the Greystark-Bolton rebellion seems to have been an attempt of these two houses (and possibly others) to cast off the yoke of Winterfell again, making it quite possible that this all happened later.

 

As to the Hoares:

 

All sources indicate that they were an ancient Ironborn house which once had High Kings chosen at the Kingsmoots. Considering that the Andals supposedly only went to the Iron Islands rather late it is quite unlikely that the Hoare fighting against Theon had any Andal blood.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well, Theon's position in the crypts makes it difficult to place him much farther back in time. He certainly lived after Jon Stark. And in one description of the crypts he appears to even have lived after Edrick Snowbeard. This is not conclusive, as in another version he is listed earlier in time than Edrick. But at the very least this would appear to indicate that they are not located too far apart.

 

Also, the Rape of the Sisters seems to have been the first Northern conquest of the Sisters, making it unlikely that Theon lived before that point.

 

As mentioned before, Theon landing an army in the Fingers also strongly suggests that he was participating in the War across the Water against the Arryns. A war that started with the Rape of the Sisters.

 

Lastly, the Greystark rebellion does not have to predate the Andal arrival. If Theon effectively ended the Andal invasion, it most likely had been underway for many centuries at that point, meaning that it could still have started before the Greystark rebellion. Which in turn means that the Red Kings could already have been subjugated before the Andal invasion started.

 

It all really does tie together very well by placing Theon at 2000 years ago, at the same time as the Rape of the Sisters.

[direpupy]

Free Northman

As i said in my previeus post it is possible you are correct and if so yes it would then fit the timeline.

But i don't argree that it is very plausible, it is in my opinion just  plausible as plausible as you being wrong and the Iron Islands not yet having been invaded at this point in history.

I also have yet to see any definitive evidence that House Hoare is a Andal House the posibility that the are ancient Ironborn House is stil just as plousible

[Free Northman Reborn]

Direpuppy

 

The Hoares were both Driftwood Kings chosen by Kingsmoot in ancient times, and hereditary kings descendant from Harras of the Fingerdance fame, after the Andal invasion. But between these two Hoare ruling periods there lay the entire dynasty of Greyiron Kings (which supposedly covered 1000 years).

 

So the only question is,  which of these two Hoare families did the Harrag who battled Theon belong to? If it was the former, then it was long before the Andals conquered the Iron Isles. If it was the latter, then it was after the Andal conquest.

 

If it was the former, though, then Theon would have had to live more than 3000 years ago. Which for various other reasons seems less likely than a date of 2000 years ago.

[Jaak]

I also have yet to see any definitive evidence that House Hoare is a Andal House the posibility that the are ancient Ironborn House is stil just as plousible

Besides, just because a House Hoare existed (and was attested by independent historic mentions) before Andal conquest does not prove that the later House was actually an Ironborn house.

 

Is it possible that House Hoare was founded by an Andal conqueror who either dropped his own surname like a hot potato or else lacked one to begin with (being a smallfolk hedge knight or sellsword), and adopted an available Ironborn surname?

[direpupy]

A this is an part of your reasoning i havend seen before, the two House Hoare theory is new to me and seems intriging, it would certainly explain a lot.

 

Altough it doesn't have to be true the Goodbrothers and Greyjoy's where also Driftwood kings and they survived the reign of House Greyiron.

 

And as Lord Varys said the Andals came late to the Iron Islands so im not sure about your plasing of Urron Redhand at 3000 years ago, is there a solid pinpoint date for when the Andals where on the Iron Islands at the latest?

couse this might help in determining wheter your theory cuts wood.

 

But once again you make a compelling argument, i am fond of learning thats why i like your post i almost always learn someting new :wideeyed:

[Free Northman Reborn]

Direpuppy

 

No, I don't mean they were two different House Hoares. I'm saying its the same House, but that they were selected as Driftwood kings in the ancient past, but this was not a hereditary title. Meaning at each kingsmoot a different king from a different House could be selected. It could be a Hoare again, but it could also be a Greyiron, Greyjoy, Blacktyde or whatever. This revolving kingship continued until Urron Redhand Greyiron ended it by killing all the other contenders at the Kingsmoot.

 

This initiated the 1000 year (supposedly) dynasty of the Greyiron kings. During this time, House Hoare continued to exist, just not as kings, but rather as lords. Then, 1000 years later, they allied with the Andals to extinguish the Greyirons, and thereafter Harras won the fingerdance (or married an Andal, depending on which tale you believe) and established the Hoare dynasty that ended with Harren the Black at Harrenhal.

 

And I'm saying that there was a Harrag Hoare both in the time of the Driftwood Kings, and again a thousand or more years later, this time as a descendant of Harras. The question is now, which of these two did Theon Stark make war with. And using independent information, I argue that the evidence leans towards Theon having lived around 2000 years ago, rather than 3000 or more years ago.

[Mithras]

Are we sure that there was only one Theon Stark?

 

If you assume a chronological order in the recitations (two by Bran and one by Theon), you will see that everything is fine but there is one big problem:

 

In one list, Theon the Hungry Wolf comes before Brandon the Shipwright. In the other list, he comes after Brandon the Shipwright.

 

One thing that is generally overlooked is that we have only seen a single vault of the crypts (more vaults in the levels below) and that “vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself” (exact words).

 

Assuming that the vault is 300 m long and a single tomb is placed in a space of 3 m, there should be a total of 200 tombs on both sides.

 

Now count how many tombs there should be since Torrhen Stark (including Artos, Lyanna and Brandon, I think no more than 20 tombs were filled in the last 300 years).

 

So, the current level of the crypts being 3000-4000 years old is a good guess.

[direpupy]

Free Northman

 

Okay i misunderstood you on the two houses thing.

 

That the Driftwood kingship was not hereditary i knew that is why i mentioned two other houses that provided Driftwood kings in my last post.

 

I am however courieus as to why you place the start of the greyiron dynasty at 3000 years ago?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Direpuppy

 

I am saying it must be at least 3000 years ago. It could be longer ago, but it can't be more recently. Because even at the most recent dating of Theon Stark, he seems to have lived 2000 years ago. The argument against it by some, is that he lived further back in the past. But lets go with the 2000 years ago date for him, which is the most recent.

 

That leaves us with two options. If the Harrag he fought was a post Andal Harrag, then he lived a number of generations after Harras of the Fingerdance fame, who in turn lived AFTER the 1000 year Greyiron rule. Meaning that the most recent date for the pre-Greyiron Harrag Hoare must be at least 3000 years ago. It could be more, but it could not be less.

 

If in turn you place Theon Stark as having warred against the Driftwood King Harrag Hoare instead, then it places Theon before the Greyiron dynasty, which as I said pushes him too far back in time to fit with the other circumstantial evidence to the contrary.

[direpupy]

So to be the devils advocate wat if Harrag was one of the last Driftwood kings  and the greyirons establised there rule shortly after so from about 2000 years ago to 1000 years ago?

 

I do realise that that places the Andals overrunning the Iron Islands at only a 1000 years ago, but the are said to have arrived late and i have never seen a definitive date for the Andal invasion of the Iron Islands.

 

Feel free to proof me wrong as said this is me as devils advocate.

 

Also your theory requers there to be two Harrag Hoare's someting we can't be sure of is the case

[Free Northman Reborn]

Direpuppy

 

Hehe. I had just finished a lengthy post proposing that exact scenario as a viable alternative, but lost the post before I could click submit.

 

Indeed, the alternative is that the Andal Hoares only came to power 1000 years ago, with the Greyiron's ruling for 1000 years before that (make it 900 years of Greyiron rule to cater for oral exaggeration). That would leave about 100 years of Driftwood kings before Urran Redhand to get back to Theon's time 2000 years ago. That would allow Theon to have warred against Harrag Hoare, a pre-Andal Driftwood king who was chosen at a Kingsmoot.

 

This actually fits rather nicely, I must say.

 

EDIT

 

Of course, that would mean that the Hoares of Harren the Black's dynasty ruled for only a relatively brief 700 years, rather than for 1700 years until Aegon's arrival. But that is probably more realistic anyway. At the same time, it would explain why they suddenly became interested in carving out a Riverland kingdom. It was because the Andal Hoares were kin with a lot of Andals living in the Riverlands.

[direpupy]

Hehe thats funny that we both thougt of that scenario at the same time.

 

i am glad you think it a viable alternative

 

EDIT

 

I agree that the 700 years for the Black blood Hoare's is more realistic i also understood from other treads that there was a problem lining up the timelines of the Riverlands and the Iron Islands section of the worldbook, perhaps this could help line them up?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Hehe thats funny that we both thougt of that scenario at the same time.

 

i am glad you think it a viable alternative

 

EDIT

 

I agree that the 700 years for the Black blood Hoare's is more realistic i also understood from other treads that there was a problem lining up the timelines of the Riverlands and the Iron Islands section of the worldbook, perhaps this could help line them up?

 

The biggest change being that Urran Redhand's kingsmoot is normally considered to have occurred 5000 years ago, and if the above is true, we are moving it to just 2000 years ago. Not impossible, but a significant change nonetheless.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Should the Andal "invasion" of the Iron Islands even be considered part of the Andal conquest? Sure they were Andals and they conquered, but those that did it were already in Westeros for centuries and were supported by the Andal kingdoms we know today, which means that it was probably hundreds of years after all of the mainland kingdoms were subdued.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Should the Andal "invasion" of the Iron Islands even be considered part of the Andal conquest? Sure they were Andals and they conquered, but those that did it were already in Westeros for centuries and were supported by the Andal kingdoms we know today, which means that it was probably hundreds of years after all of the mainland kingdoms were subdued.

Well, there was no Andal conquest properly anyway. Only the Vale was conquered and held, and the Riverlands for a short while. Everywhere else, the First Men won and integrated the Andal immigrants when they came peacefully. Below their old First Men kings, of course.

Lannister, Durrandon, Gardener, Yronwood, they are all First Men. So were the Justmans and Blackwoods of the Riverlands.

 

Andal Conquest is a misnomer, by and large.