LordQorgyle Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 No evidence for what side Whent fought for, nor can we assume Frey took it's position at the top in the last 15 years. Darrys and Mootons were powerful (though Myles was dead by this point so the Mooton forces may have been limited/poorly lead), but the biggest in the Riverlands besides the Freys are the Mallisters (rebel), the Tully's themselves, Blackwood and Bracken (neither confirmed, but can be 90% sure both fought for Robert). The fact that Ryger (a house with no named seat or lord) is brought up as a loyalist more or less confirms that Mooton and Darry were the only major houses to support Aerys. According to Martin there are battles we don't know about in several regions, including the Vale, but by and large it seems the Vale loyalists were defeated at Gulltown. At the time of the rebellion the Darrys were some of the most powerfull bannerman in the Riverlands, and Whent being a Rhaegar man it is to suppose that he was on Loyalist side, Goodbrook also fought for the loyalists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Darry was certainly a Royalist, as was Mooten, Ryger, Goodbrook and others. We have no idea on whose side the Whents were on. Hoster Tully was married to a Whent, it is possible that they sided with him. People seem to make a bit much of Goodbrook, we only know about them because Arya happened to pass through a village once sworn to them, we have no indication that they are even principle bannermen to the Tullys (or sworn directly to them at all), I very much doubt they are on the same level as Mallister, Blackwood, Vance and Whent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 No evidence for what side Whent fought for, nor can we assume Frey took it's position at the top in the last 15 years. Of course we can. During the Dance of the Dragons at the Battle of the Lakeshore when Dustin came with 2,000. The Freys had more men in that battle, 800, than any other Riverlord. The Blackwoods only brought 300. In the World book Forrest Frey is said to be one of Rhaenyra's notable supporters during the Greens vs the Blacks. We also know that the Freys are one of only two Riverland Houses to have a Lordly vassal. I doubt this happened during Robert's reign. It is highly unlikely that Walder Frey only made his House that powerful in his 70's and 80's. Not with Hoster being pissed with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 At the time of the rebellion the Darrys were some of the most powerfull bannerman in the Riverlands, and Whent being a Rhaegar man it is to suppose that he was on Loyalist side, Goodbrook also fought for the loyalists They were considered a good match for Merrett Frey, probably above average for a Riverlands house, saying they were one of the most powerful is pure speculation, and doesn't fit with what we know about house Darry (if strength can be correlated to impressiveness of castle then they would almost certainly be below average). I mentioned the Goodbrooks in another comment. Whent wasn't Rhaegar's man, Rhaegar helped him fund a tourney where some plotting was supposed to take place, nothing important happened, end of relationship, Hoster was his liege and widower of one of his relatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Of course we can. During the Dance of the Dragons at the Battle of the Lakeshore when Dustin came with 2,000. The Freys had more men in that battle, 800, than any other Riverlord. The Blackwoods only brought 300. In the World book Forrest Frey is said to be one of Rhaenyra's notable supporters during the Greens vs the Blacks. We also know that the Freys are one of only two Riverland Houses to have a Lordly vassal. I doubt this happened during Robert's reign. It is highly unlikely that Walder Frey only made his House that powerful in his 70's and 80's. Not with Hoster being pissed with him. Why have you completely mixed up what I said? I said we can't assume that Freys jumped up in Robert's reign, which is what LordQorgyle was suggesting by placing Whent and Darry at the top. Of course Frey has been stronger than average for the last ~300 years, with them being the most powerful for at least the last few decades. I don't agree that them having Lordly vassals is notable though, every major bannerman should have several lords sworn to him, the fact that that only Frey and Vance have confirmed Lordly vassals simply means that only those have been mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 They were considered a good match for Merrett Frey, probably above average for a Riverlands house, saying they were one of the most powerful is pure speculation, and doesn't fit with what we know about house Darry (if strength can be correlated to impressiveness of castle then they would almost certainly be below average). I mentioned the Goodbrooks in another comment. Whent wasn't Rhaegar's man, Rhaegar helped him fund a tourney where some plotting was supposed to take place, nothing important happened, end of relationship, Hoster was his liege and widower of one of his relatives. The Tullys themselves had a small castle, the Eyrie is a small castle too does this mean that they are weak, it is said in the books that before the trident the Darrys were one of the most proeminent and powerfull houses in the Riverlands before the fall of the Targs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 People seem to make a bit much of Goodbrook, we only know about them because Arya happened to pass through a village once sworn to them, we have no indication that they are even principle bannermen to the Tullys (or sworn directly to them at all), I very much doubt they are on the same level as Mallister, Blackwood, Vance and Whent. You do realize that I was only naming the Riverland Houses we knew were supporting the Crown, I was not making a point of their strength. I have no idea how strong they are currrently (not very I imagine) or they were in the past. The wiki mentions that they lost wealth and influence after the war. I'm not sure if that is true or it is just an assumption based on both the Mootens and Darrys losing power after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 The Whents, Darrys, Mootons, Goodbroks, and Ryger were with the Targaryens. It is heavily implied but not confirmed yet that House Whent was extinguished in the male line during the war. The Darrys suffered the same fate as the Conningtons after the war and there were among Aerys' friends prior to the war (the king named Ser Willem Darry master-of-arms instead of Tygett Lannister). The Freys certainly were as powerful back then as they are now. They were already as powerful as they are now during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion if I'm not mistaken. Considering that there were no Freys at the Trident, and considering that Hoster had to fight some battles in his own lands subdue Targaryen loyalists, I guess it is save to say that most/all Riverlords on the Targaryen side of the Trident were with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Why have you completely mixed up what I said? I said we can't assume that Ah sorry. My mistake. I don't agree that them having Lordly vassals is notable though, every major bannerman should have several lords sworn to him, the fact that that only Frey and Vance have confirmed Lordly vassals simply means that only those have been mentioned. Every noble House should have Knights and minor nobility sworn to them. Both the Charltons and Smallwoods seem to be actual Lords. They were considered a good match for Merrett Frey, probably above average for a Riverlands house, saying they were one of the most powerful is pure speculation, They sound more powerful than above average. His father had managed to make a good marriage for him, somehow; he wed one of Lord Darry's daughters, back when the Darrys stood high in King Aerys's favor. But it seemed as if he no sooner had deflowered his bride than Aerys lost his throne. Unlike the Freys, the Darrys had been prominent Targaryen loyalists, which cost them half their lands, most of their wealth, and almost all their power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 You do realize that I was only naming the Riverland Houses we knew were supporting the Crown, I was not making a point of their strength. I have no idea how strong they are currrently (not very I imagine) or they were in the past. The wiki mentions that they lost wealth and influence after the war. I'm not sure if that is true or it is just an assumption based on both the Mootens and Darrys losing power after the war. I know, I wasn't critiquing your post, simply adding that Goodbrook probably isn't very noteworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I know, I wasn't critiquing your post, simply adding that Goodbrook probably isn't very noteworthy. Probably. They are mentioned a few times in the world book (like the Charltons). I know that is no correlation with how powerful they are now, but it's something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Ah sorry. My mistake. Every noble House should have Knights and minor nobility sworn to them. Both the Charltons and Smallwoods seem to be actual Lords. They sound more powerful than above average. His father had managed to make a good marriage for him, somehow; he wed one of Lord Darry's daughters, back when the Darrys stood high in King Aerys's favor. But it seemed as if he no sooner had deflowered his bride than Aerys lost his throne. Unlike the Freys, the Darrys had been prominent Targaryen loyalists, which cost them half their lands, most of their wealth, and almost all their power. My point was Manderly has 12 lords sworn to him, on the Field of Fire there were 5 or 6 hundred, 80% of which probably weren't sworn directly to Casterly Rock or Highgarden, based on this it is probably safe to assume that every major lord has 3-4+ lords sword to him. High in Aerys' regard since 2 of them were his own sworn knights, that passage doesn't say anything that puts them much above average for a Riverlands house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 My point was Manderly has 12 lords sworn to him, on the Field of Fire there were 5 or 6 hundred, 80% of which probably weren't sworn directly to Casterly Rock or Highgarden, based on this it is probably safe to assume that every major lord has 3-4+ lords sword to him. High in Aerys' regard since 2 of them were his own sworn knights, that passage doesn't say anything that puts them much above average for a Riverlands house. They have been loyalists for a long time and in norm the kings award the Lords that are loyal to them with Lands, and we know that they lost lands and wealth after the rebellion and by now they are an average house, so i would say they were at the level of the Freys before the rebellion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 They have been loyalists for a long time and in norm the kings award the Lords that are loyal to them with Lands, and we know that they lost lands and wealth after the rebellion and by now they are an average house, so i would say they were at the level of the Freys before the rebellion They were below average after the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 They were below average after the rebellion. That depends on what you consider average...If you talk about seven kingdoms average yes i can agree with you but if your talking about Riverlands average you are wrong. The point is that they are stated to be Proeminent and powerfull before the rebellion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOT A TARG I SWEAR Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I feel like something as simple as having the Reach forces with Rhaegar and the Martell's staying behind in the Stormlands would have made an enormous difference during the battle. The Reach had more troops , more battle tested soldiers, and some legitimately good commanders. The terrain would be more similar to what large portions of the Reach forces are used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Southron ambitions maybe Mace wanted to be made a hand , stupidity ,hubris , occupation of the Stormlands (If Robert had lost Stormland territory would be up for grabs ) , or not all of the Reachmen was loyal as we were led to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Southron ambitions maybe Mace wanted to be made a hand , stupidity ,hubris , occupation of the Stormlands (If Robert had lost Stormland territory would be up for grabs ) , or not all of the Reachmen was loyal as we were led to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 We know that the KG died, and we know that the battle ended with the fight between Rhaegar and Robert. Therefore, the KG have to die earlier. I fail to see the logic. To see commanders being overtaken during a rout should hardly be considered impossible. The only one for sure that I can think of to die during battle was Lewyn Martell, who if I recall was killed in the charge that broke the Dornish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 We don't know when exactly the battle ended. It may have been sort of lost when Rhaegar fell but that was of course not the case, and if the Kingsguard were still alive by then - which is possible - they would have continued the fight. Thus Prince Lewyn may actually only have died after Rhaegar. That would fit in with Aerys' belief Lewyn and his Dornishmen had betrayed Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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