Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I think maybe your assumption about their end goal is flawed. Is a Targ on the throne their final objective? Or another stepping stone along the way? Personally, I think a Targaryen (Aegon or Dany) is just another tool for them to shatter what is left of the social/political structure of Westeros.Why do you think they want to shatter the social political structure of Westeros? What do you think they want to replace it with?Oh, never mind. I saw your earlier response. You see them as modern day Maoists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 To make a king is to have that king indebted to you. We may have discussed this in another thread. If so, sorry. Don't you believe that The George was hinting in Tyrion III, Dance 8 that the noble young lad was Illyrio's son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Personally i subscribe to the blackfyre theory. In which aegon is a blackfyre descendant through serra. And illyrios son. I also think varys is a blackfyre through a female line. So basically i dont think they want a targ on the throne i think theyre conducting another blackfyre rebellion just in a more subtle wayBut if Serra is the Blackfyre and not Illyrio, why would Illyrio a. give up his son, and b. risk his life and his fortune to honor his wife's claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I generally like to subscribe to the Aegon being Illiyrio's son theory and being a Blackfyre through Serra but Varys motivations have always truly eluded me.... I can never be sure what he really means. This is what I mean. I don't know if we will ever TRULY know what Varys motivations are until the end, if we ever do.I figure he's either very loyal to Illyrio, or more likely has some grievance of his own against Targaryen rule. I tend to favor the idea that he is a descendant of Aerion, but I'm not convinced. I am pretty sure he has at least a drop of dragon blood in him though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Rereading Jaime in feast got me thinking, when he thinks of Rhaegar and Aerys, Varys shows up alot. Pointing out any traitors Aerys missed...but we know Rhaegar was about to get Aerys dethroned via Great Council how did Varys miss this? Maybe his loyalties were to Rhaegar not Aerys? That would explain why he saved Aegon but Viserys/Dany were treated with indifference.Assuming that Aegon is a Blackfyre, requires explaining what Varys was doing in King's Landing before Robert's Rebellion, because the Aegon plot clearlyhhadn't been cooked up before that. I suspect that Varys went to destabilze Aerys's regime. That's why he fed his paranoia. It would also explain why he exposed Rhaegar's Harrenhal plot. He was worried Rhaegar's coup would solidify Targaryen rule. I think Illyrio and the Golden Company were planning a sixth rebellion, but as Pycelle pointed out Robert was too strong and The Ned was too fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In A Coat of Gold Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 We may have discussed this in another thread. If so, sorry. Don't you believe that The George was hinting in Tyrion III, Dance 8 that the noble young lad was Illyrio's son? No. At no point does that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Main series, Jaime bathhouse scene in SoS...like I said in my first post Varys shows up ALOT whenever Jaime thinks of Aerys/Rhaegar and not without reason I am thinking. Definitely worth a reread.The Blackfyre was also mentioned in that scene, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Varys and Illyrio control Aegon. They want a king they control. I also believe that Varys doesn't want a Targ on the throne but a Blackfyre. Viserys was never meant to rule but to help Aegon take the throne (circuitously) by allowing Aegon to be the hero and the savior. Varys and Illyrio have bred the perfect little king and worked for years to create the perfect situation for him to ascend (after saving the realm from a Dothraki invasion and Mad King Viserys). But fate and Daenerys' unexpected competence, and Aegon's youthful arrogance and inexperience as well as the incoming Others have ruined their plan (even if they don't know it yet.)Check out the section on Lys in The World of Ice and Fire. The city is known for breeding Valyrian features, and even kings have sought brides among such stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Good point. I wonder if Varys has been egging on the sparrow revolution? !!! Is Varys the High Sprarrow? does BAELOR=ILLRYIO??I think Varys expects to use the discord among the two queens and the Faith to Aegon's advantage. That was a key reason for offing Kevan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 No. At no point does that happen.What did you make of this...The last that Tyrion Lannister saw of Illyrio Mopatis, the magister was standing by his litter in his brocade robes, his massive shoulders slumped. As his figure dwindled in their dust, the lord of cheese looked almost small.Tyrion III, Dance 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwight Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I can't really see Varys's goal to be to have a specific name (Targaryen, Blackfyre) on the Iron Throne. It'd be pretty underwhelming if all the "for the good of the realm" was revealed to have been just for show and actually all he cares about is last names and lineages like everyone else. Although I do hope there's more to him than "for the good of the realm" because otherwise he's really been messing up. :dunno: If he really wanted the good of the realm, he could have just crossbowed Joffrey, Cersei and Littlefinger and everything would have been (relatively) smooth sailing from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The Blackfyre was also mentioned in that scene, no?The Blackfyre...? What? There is no Blackfyre character. I think Jaime compares the threat level of RR to a BR one time but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I can't really see Varys's goal to be to have a specific name (Targaryen, Blackfyre) on the Iron Throne. It'd be pretty underwhelming if all the "for the good of the realm" was revealed to have been just for show and actually all he cares about is last names and lineages like everyone else. Although I do hope there's more to him than "for the good of the realm" because otherwise he's really been messing up. :dunno: If he really wanted the good of the realm, he could have just crossbowed Joffrey, Cersei and Littlefinger and everything would have been (relatively) smooth sailing from there.As shown by Eustace Osgrey, the Blackfyre loyalists do believe that Daemon was the better man, compared to Daeron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 As shown by Eustace Osgrey, the Blackfyre loyalists do believe that Daemon was the better man, compared to Daeron. What does that have to do with Varys' "for the realm" monologue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The Blackfyre...? What? There is no Blackfyre character. I think Jaime compares the threat level of RR to a BR one time but that's it.The first time we read the word Blackfyre was in Catelyn IV, Storm 35..."Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."We read Blackfyre again in the following chapter, Davos IV, Storm 36..."It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon's day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."The reader noticed here that this Daemon Blackfyre was mentioned with, among others, the brothers Toyne and Rhaenyra Targaryen.And we read Blackfyre again in the chapter after that, Jaime V, Storm 37...He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffin's men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself."Very interestingly here, we read Daemon Blackfyre mentioned in passing when Jaime told us about the griffin's part in Robert's Rebellion. From Arya V, Storm 29, we knew that dancing griffin was Jon Connington. And we knew from Daenerys I, Storm 8, that young Lord Connington was dear to Prince Rhaegar.So, in three successive chapters, the George presented us with this Blackfyre, and associated this Blackfyre with House Toyne, Rhaenyra Targaryen, and Jon Connington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 What does that have to do with Varys' "for the realm" monologue?Varys suggests that his claimant will be a better king than the rest of the claimants. That's what Eustace argues about Daemon Blackfyre too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Varys suggests that his claimant will be a better king than the rest of the claimants. That's what Eustace argues about Daemon Blackfyre too. Well, because he's been raised and educated to be a better king, not because of his name (which would be super-ironic anyway, if his name weren't really his name, as you suggest). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The first time we read the word Blackfyre was in Catelyn IV, Storm 35...We read Blackfyre again in the following chapter, Davos IV, Storm 36...The reader noticed here that this Daemon Blackfyre was mentioned with, among others, the brothers Toyne and Rhaenyra Targaryen.And we read Blackfyre again in the chapter after that, Jaime V, Storm 37...Very interestingly here, we read Daemon Blackfyre mentioned in passing when Jaime told us about the griffin's part in Robert's Rebellion. From Arya V, Storm 29, we knew that dancing griffin was Jon Connington. And we knew from Daenerys I, Storm 8, that young Lord Connington was dear to Prince Rhaegar.So, in three successive chapters, the George presented us with this Blackfyre, and associated this Blackfyre with House Toyne, Rhaenyra Targaryen, and Jon Connington.Yes...as I said Jaime mentions the Blackfyre rebellion in the bath scene. When you keep saying "The Blackfyre" or "this Blackfyre" are you talking about Daemon? The rebellions? Bittersteel? It's a bit confusing. I kinda think your using ambiguous wording as an excuse to flex your Bf knowledge but compared to other shenanigans on this forum that was classy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yes...as I said Jaime mentions the Blackfyre rebellion in the bath scene. When you keep saying "The Blackfyre" or "this Blackfyre" are you talking about Daemon? The rebellions? Bittersteel? It's a bit confusing. I kinda think your using ambiguous wording as an excuse to flex your Bf knowledge but compared to other shenanigans on this forum that was classyWhat a nice put down. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In A Coat of Gold Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 What did you make of this...Tyrion III, Dance 8 He was sad he wouldn't see Aegon...a boy who lived in his manse for years. Gilly becomes attached to Mance's son in an even shorter amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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