Why do Illyrio and Varys want a Targ to rule Westeros?

[Municipal Engines]

So if Varys was a Targ loyalist, why did he sow discord between Rhaegar and Aerys? Why did he pull the Mad King's strings instead of prepping him for his downfall and Rhaegar for his glorious ascension?

Why would a crook from the Free Cities care so much about a dynasty in a foreign realm that he's only been a part of for a portion of his adult life?

His claims of doing everything for the realm are bullshit too, seeing as he wanted to tear the realm apart in a bloody war and keep the coals burning by killing stabilising factors.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

Because a Targaryen is the only one that can garantee support. If Varys tried to put a Tully or Bolton on the throne someone will eventually say they have more claim, plus probably nobody would support them.

Second or third option was probably Gendry.

[Municipal Engines]

Because a Targaryen is the only one that can garantee support. If Varys tried to put a Tully or Bolton on the throne someone will eventually say they have more claim, plus probably nobody would support them.

Second or third option was probably Gendry.

So they're not really Targ loyalists, just opportunists.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

So they're not really Targ loyalists, just opportunists.

That's my bet.

[The Fresh PtwP]

Well it makes more sense if he's a Rhaegar loyalist, and he was pulling Aerys strings, as much as one can without getting cooked. I mean how do we know he didn't have a hand in Aerys downfall in fact...

"Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident"

[Municipal Engines]

Well it makes more sense if he's a Rhaegar loyalist, and he was pulling Aerys strings, as much as one can without getting cooked. I mean how do we know he didn't have a hand in Aerys downfall in fact...

"Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident"

I remember it being said or implied he fed Aerys's paranoia regarding his son. Whether this was in the main series or in TWOIAF, I don't know.

[Adaneth]

I generally like to subscribe to the Aegon being Illiyrio's son theory and being a Blackfyre through Serra but Varys motivations have always truly eluded me.... I can never be sure what he really means.

This is what I mean. I don't know if we will ever TRULY know what Varys motivations are until the end, if we ever do.

This is what I like about his character. Varys is a real puzzle.

I know what Littlefinger wants. I have no idea what Varys wants and who he really is.

[The Fresh PtwP]

I remember it being said or implied he fed Aerys's paranoia regarding his son. Whether this was in the main series or in TWOIAF, I don't know.

Main series, Jaime bathhouse scene in SoS...like I said in my first post Varys shows up ALOT whenever Jaime thinks of Aerys/Rhaegar and not without reason I am thinking. Definitely worth a reread.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Varys and Illyrio control Aegon. They want a king they control. I also believe that Varys doesn't want a Targ on the throne but a Blackfyre. Viserys was never meant to rule but to help Aegon take the throne (circuitously) by allowing Aegon to be the hero and the savior. Varys and Illyrio have bred the perfect little king and worked for years to create the perfect situation for him to ascend (after saving the realm from a Dothraki invasion and Mad King Viserys). But fate and Daenerys' unexpected competence, and Aegon's youthful arrogance and inexperience as well as the incoming Others have ruined their plan (even if they don't know it yet.)

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

So they're not really Targ loyalists, just opportunists.

Not Targ loyalists, Blackfyre loyalists carrying on the war after the other side thinks it has already won. Over and over again it is said the Blackfyre line is extinguished... in the male line, but women have sons, sons with silver hair (that needs to be hidden with blue dye, or shaved off.)

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I suspect that Varys and Illyrio are trying to weaken the power of the nobility by instigating conflicts so that they can eventually stage a popular revolution. Not because I believe they have altruistic motives; quite the opposite. I view them as more Mao or Stalin type figures, using the guise of a popular uprising to seize their own power and establish a system in which they profit.

To do this, they need to sweep away the old system. Play the nobility off against each other. Demonstrate the futility of the feudal system and the incompetence of their rule. Put the people into such dire straits (winter is coming) that in their desperation they will embrace revolution. And then build a “better” Westeros in which all men are equal, just some are more equal than others. After all, it is “for the children”.

I would believe this if they were making any attempt to empower the middle or lower classes in preparation for said revolution. When the revolution comes, you want to have your alternative system of governance ready to go, but the closest things to a power base outside the aristocracy in Westeros are the Brotherhood Without Banners and Littlefinger, neither of whom seem to be working with Varys. (Well, we can't say for sure about the Brotherhood.)

Rereading Jaime in feast got me thinking, when he thinks of Rhaegar and Aerys, Varys shows up alot. Pointing out any traitors Aerys missed...but we know Rhaegar was about to get Aerys dethroned via Great Council how did Varys miss this? Maybe his loyalties were to Rhaegar not Aerys?

RHAEGER=ILLARIO

Think about it, you've never seen them in the same rooom at the same time

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

As for the OP's question:

Where's the cheese?

I don't know

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Step 1: restore Targaryen dynasty

Step 2: ??????

Step 3: profit

[Koelox]

I think it is quite a strange coincidence that the Others reappear after millenia shortly after the Targaryen dynasty was overthrown. I think the Valyrian Empire with their dragons was the main opposing power against the Others. That's why the Others somehow caused the destruction of Valyria. The Targaryens survived and conquered Westeros and so the Others had to wait a few centuries more. But, when the Targaryens were defeated, the Others began their campaign.

Illyrio and Varys have realized what is happening and they want to restore the Targaryen power in order to halt the Others from attacking and prevent them from destroying humanity.

I also consider it possible that there is a mastermind behind Illyrio and Varys who keeps out of sight in order to evade assassins or something like that.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Its not that they want a Targ on the throne but that they want their Targ on the throne. Whatever their motivation is, I doubt any loyalty to the Targaryens have anything to do with it.

:agree: I think that they want their own King, who most likely isn't a Targ, on the Throne and they don't give a second eff about the Targs in general.

[Direwight]

I would believe this if they were making any attempt to empower the middle or lower classes in preparation for said revolution. When the revolution comes, you want to have your alternative system of governance ready to go, but the closest things to a power base outside the aristocracy in Westeros are the Brotherhood Without Banners and Littlefinger, neither of whom seem to be working with Varys. (Well, we can't say for sure about the Brotherhood.)

You're forgetting the Faith, which is rather empowered now. Maybe he doesn't mind if the revolution is religious in nature. :uhoh:

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

You're forgetting the Faith, which is rather empowered now. Maybe he doesn't mind if the revolution is religious in nature. :uhoh:

Good point. I wonder if Varys has been egging on the sparrow revolution?

!!! Is Varys the High Sprarrow?

does BAELOR=ILLRYIO??

[In A Coat of Gold]

So if Varys was a Targ loyalist, why did he sow discord between Rhaegar and Aerys? Why did he pull the Mad King's strings instead of prepping him for his downfall and Rhaegar for his glorious ascension?

Why would a crook from the Free Cities care so much about a dynasty in a foreign realm that he's only been a part of for a portion of his adult life?

His claims of doing everything for the realm are bullshit too, seeing as he wanted to tear the realm apart in a bloody war and keep the coals burning by killing stabilising factors.

Aerys was going insane before Varys even set foot in King's Landing, and Rhaegar was actively scheming against him. Varys didn't make any of that up.

Why would Francis II, Duke of Brittany(who is Illyrio's historical base) support Henry Tudor and fund his invasion of England? Because Henry was a pawn and to make a pawn a king, indebts him to you.

He knows that Kevan is only a band aid, and everyone hates the house that made him king. War will come because Tommen won't make a good king

[In A Coat of Gold]

Not Targ loyalists, Blackfyre loyalists carrying on the war after the other side thinks it has already won. Over and over again it is said the Blackfyre line is extinguished... in the male line, but women have sons, sons with silver hair (that needs to be hidden with blue dye, or shaved off.)

The only link between Varys, Illyrio, and Aegon and the Blackfyre rebellions is the Golden Company. The same Golden Company that has fought in countless non-Blackfyre conflicts. The same Golden Company that has no current Blackfyres in it. The same Golden Company that is composed of non Westerosi.

[Lost Melnibonean]

What's in it for them?

They both started out in the low-life of the plutocratic 'free' cities, and ascended to astonishing wealth and influence. They both seem to have done at least as well for themselves out of Westeros in the fifteen years of Baratheon rule, as under Targaryen rule - in fact probably better, as King Robert does not seem to have been as zealous about ensuring taxes were paid as Aerys was, and, not being excessively paranoid, he wouldn't have been as desperate for whispers, or as fond of burning the messenger as Aerys, either.

Neither of them seems to have family in Westeros, or a living lover to give them a personal connection with an interest in the state of the Realms. Westeros doesn't have slavery, as the free cities do, but neither of them show much concern for social justice - Illyrio has slaves, and, if Viserys III had sat on the iron throne, slavery trading would have been legal in Westeros.

And yet,, they have been tirelessly beavering away for the last fifteen eighteen years (at least), spiriting Targaryen babes to the safety of Essos, setting the Wolves against the Lions, quietly sabotaging effective Baratheon rule "for the Realm".

I could understand Varys objecting to Stannis, with his shadowbabies and sacrifices, but the Baratheons are, on the whole, a lot less magical than the Targaryens.

What would a Targaryen ruler offer but sorcery, fire, and inconvenient trade polices? What is the attraction for Illyrio and Varys? Where's the cheese?

They are not seeking to restore the Targaryen monarchy; they are seeking to place, finally, after several generations of trying, a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.