The merits of Tyrion as a dragonrider

[sweetsunray]

Daenerys gave the world the dragons back. That in itself is a pretty big confirmation that she is the promised princess since that guy is supposed to do just that.

Any textual confirmation for that, or is it your conjecture?

[XSarellaX]

OK, so I agree it could be interesting to see how Tyrion would react to the power that being a dragonrider would give him. And it doesn't have to be a faitytale either, he could greatly misuse this power. And if this is where George is taking his story, I trust him. But honestly, I still think it would be more poetic if he never got a dragon...

There are other reference to the 3HD. The central reference is by Rhaegar in the HotU vision. He states that the dragon has three heads so there must be one more. In context, having just stated that Aegon is TPTWP, it seems clear that Rhaegar believes that he will have 3 children who will work together as the 3HD to save humanity. We are told elsewhere that when Rhaegar thought that he himself was TPTWP, he started training to be a warrior. So that information is consistent with your statement about a "savior" hero. But when Rhaegar tells Elia that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads, logically, I believe it means that TPTWP prophecy includes some reference to 3HD being part of the battle. Otherwise, why would Rhaegar say that there "must" be one more?

In the vision, Dany is separately told that the dragon has three heads. Jorah later tells her that it might be a reference to the Targ sigil -- but I think we can safely assume that Jorah is only partially correct and that the 3HD, while connected to House Targ, is more than just a simple reference to House Targ.

Your reference to Aemon saying that he is too old to be one of the heads to help Dany (who he thinks might be TPTWP) also makes it clear that in the communications between Rhaegar and Aemon, they both assumed that TPTWP would be assisted by two other Targs to be the 3HD. Something in the prophecy led them to that conclusion. While Aemon and Rhaegar were not very good at interpreting exactly who is being referenced in the prophecy (the both get TPTWP wrong, IMHO, for example) but they know everything there is to know about the prophecy. If they think the prophecy includes a reference to a 3HD being critical to the battle, then the prophecy includes such a reference.

Of course, it is up to us to try to figure out what the 3HD in the prophecy really means. But some way or other, the prophecy will be fulfilled so there will be a 3HD. I think the most logical conclusion is that the 3 heads are Jon (TPTWP), Dany and Tyrion. I know others disagree, but this thread is premised on the assumption that Tyrion rides a dragon, and if he does, it is strong support for the conclusion that he is one of the 3 heads, and if he is, then he plays a critical role in the BftD 2.0.

As for the prophecy, there is definetely some base for the belief that the dragon has 3 heads.

Melisandre also knows about TPTWP and AA, and she doesn't think Stannis needs anyone else (but her) to save the world. So the 3HD is either a Targaryen invention based on their sigil (unlikely, since the Undying basically confirm the dragon has three heads, and it doesn't seem to be a red herring), or there is some information the Targaryen family had access to that made them believe it. Maybe something in those books Rhaegar had, maybe someone had a dream, maybe the GoHH said something... we just don't know.

[UnmaskedLurker]

OK, so I agree it could be interesting to see how Tyrion would react to the power that being a dragonrider would give him. And it doesn't have to be a faitytale either, he could greatly misuse this power. And if this is where George is taking his story, I trust him. But honestly, I still think it would be more poetic if he never got a dragon...

As for the prophecy, there is definetely some base for the belief that the dragon has 3 heads.

Melisandre also knows about TPTWP and AA, and she doesn't think Stannis needs anyone else (but her) to save the world. So the 3HD is either a Targaryen invention based on their sigil (unlikely, since the Undying basically confirm the dragon has three heads, and it doesn't seem to be a red herring), or there is some information the Targaryen family had access to that made them believe it. Maybe something in those books Rhaegar had, maybe someone had a dream, maybe the GoHH said something... we just don't know.

Mel seems to only have access to the AAR version of the prophecy. The 3HD seems to come only from TPTWP version of the prophecy (and I agree, they are the same overall prophecy, but they also are different versions with some differences in details -- although overall consistent and both will be fulfilled). I think that the woods witch who told Jaehaerys that TPTWP would be from the line of Aerys and Rhaella is the most likely source for the 3HD part of the prophecy, but it might be older than that. Either way -- it does not appear to be part of the AAR version.

[idio]

I totally agree with the OP.

Tyrion's intellect and wit are not going to be particularly useful in such a battle.

Huh? Why not? I can very easily imagine Tyrion chilling by a Glass Candle and helping formulate battle tactics as what is left of the humans in Westeros try to assist the Dragon Riders in destroying the armies of the Others.

[idio]

No way GRRM will use fantasy tropes in his series about the Dragon Queen and the Lost Prince.

lol well done.

But yah I keep hearing everyone state as an emphatic fact that "X can't happen because it's a trope and as a matter of Law, GRRM does not use tropes".

I mean c'mon. His book busts many tropes, it does a lot of things in unconventional ways, but this idea that nothing can or will ever be a trope is overblown.

[RoamingRonin]

Often people say Tyrion being Aerys' son would ruin the dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion but that's not quite true. A+J=T would be no different than R+L=J. Jon discovering he's Rhaegar's son does not change the fact that he was raised as Ned's son he's whole life. It doesn't matter who his true father is because from his POV, Ned would be his "real" father. Jon discovering he's trueborn (and a king, no less) does not negate the life he lived believing he was a bastard son of a highlord. Compare that with Tyrion discovering he's the bastard son (of a king, no less) and not the trueborn son of a highlord.

Someone like him suddenly getting the power to burn an army on his own feels a bit... Not exactly cheap, but it would lose some of the subtley of his arc. It would be as if Varys was revealed as a great swordsman in hiding and became a war leader or something.

I agree (but for slightly different reasons):

Tyrion being a bastard Targaryen would be GRRM trying to have his cake and eat it too. Which is disappointing because Tyrion is obviously his favorite character and he is given so many passes in the narrative that GRRM has destroyed my suspension of disbelief concerning anything Tyrion. He fights in battles and lives. He travels the world. He meets all these exciting characters. He knows everything about everything.

And now he's about to become a dragonrider? It's just silly.

It makes me wonder if Rhaegal and Viserion were kept smaller than Drogon so that no other person but Tyrion could potentially ride them. If Tyrion can ride one of them and Dany needs a rider, she's left with little choice but to choose Tyrion. He's the only one that knows dragons well.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I totally agree with the OP.

Huh? Why not? I can very easily imagine Tyrion chilling by a Glass Candle and helping formulate battle tactics as what is left of the humans in Westeros try to assist the Dragon Riders in destroying the armies of the Others.

Basically, I agree with your critique on that particular sentence of mine. I should have been clearer. Using only his intellect and wit would sideline Tyrion for most of the battle and make him not integral. Even in the battle of blackwater, GRRM sent Tyrion into the actual battle. Tyrion will not merely remain on the sidelines as a strategic adviser. He needs to be central to the fight -- for that, he needs a dragon.

[Chinoiserie]

The only character that gets to live out its dream is Hot Pie. Almost all the other characters never get what they want, but what they need.

Dany wanted dragons and she got them. I know mostly in this series people do not get what they want but the argument was that Tyrion can not have a dragon because this is what he wants. But I do not think that something going to someone's wishes for once is something that can not happen.

[Chinoiserie]

If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider he'll aim at a bigger price than that stupid rock. As a dragonrider he can become King himself, or at least Prince Consort. Dragons are power - look what the dragonseeds did during the Dance. I'm not sure why he should remained fixed on Casterly Rock if he can have the Iron Throne. He was close to it before, and it is quite clear that he liked sitting on that thing.

Bastard birth or lack of legal claims/royal blood no longer matter when you a dragonrider in a world which hasn't seen dragons for nearly 150 years.

But why can not the Rock to be a part of what he wants first? But I was not completely serious with my suggestion, I was just saying there is a possibility of Cersei seeing Tyrion with a dragon. I just do not think that if it happens it will be in King's Landing.

[sweetsunray]

Dany wanted dragons and she got them. I know mostly in this series people do not get what they want but the argument was that Tyrion can not have a dragon because this is what he wants. But I do not think that something going to someone's wishes for once is something that can not happen.

Dany wanted Drogo. What she got was dragons.

[Bungle]

In my opinion, Tyrion riding a dragon would be risible. The poor man has to use a special saddle to ride a horse. Although he has pain in his legs all the time. How could he be able to fly over the skies on the back of a giant beast with no special saddle? Even if he could, it would be too comical.

Tyrion is a very good character, and he doesn't need to ride a dragon to be relevant in the second dance or in the battle for the dawn. In the end, he has something that Daenerys and some others pov characters will never have (intelligence), and that's enough for me.

[Monoman32]

Basically, I agree with your critique on that particular sentence of mine. I should have been clearer. Using only his intellect and wit would sideline Tyrion for most of the battle and make him not integral. Even in the battle of blackwater, GRRM sent Tyrion into the actual battle. Tyrion will not merely remain on the sidelines as a strategic adviser. He needs to be central to the fight -- for that, he needs a dragon.

The only way for Tyrion to be central to the fight is to have a Dragon? Does this pertain to Jon, Dany, Arya, and Bran too? Just give Tyrion a crossbow and the Others will be shaking in their boots.

[sweetsunray]

In my opinion, Tyrion riding a dragon would be risible. The poor man has to use a special saddle to ride a horse. Although he has pain in his legs all the time. How could he be able to fly over the skies on the back of a giant beast with no special saddle? Even if he could, it would be too comical.

Tyrion is a very good character, and he doesn't need to ride a dragon to be relevant in the second dance or in the battle for the dawn. In the end, he has something that Daenerys and some others pov characters will never have (intelligence), and that's enough for me.

Just to say... Like your nickname, Mr. Bungle

[falcotron]

Cersei burns King's Landing, goes to Casterly Rock and then Tyrion arrives to take it with Viserion :)

Not that this is certain to happen but it is possible for Cersei to see Tyrion with a dragon I think.

I wasn't asking how it was possible to fit it into the plot, but how it would be possible for even a writer as good as GRRM to convey how Cersei's mind would snap from inside her PoV.

The only character that gets to live out its dream is Hot Pie. Almost all the other characters never get what they want, but what they need.

Maybe Hot Pie won't get what he wants in the end, he'll be forced to leave the inn to ride a dragon.

I mean c'mon. His book busts many tropes, it does a lot of things in unconventional ways, but this idea that nothing can or will ever be a trope is overblown.

Agreed. Even Michael Moorcock, who really did set out to deliberately break tropes above all else, realized by the second Elric book that doing exactly the opposite of what you'd expect gets too predictable and boring pretty fast. There's an essay in New Worlds where he talks about how, once a writer has conditioned people not to expect "Conan moments", the occasional Conan moment can have the same power as it did back in the 1930s, as long as it flows properly from the story.

[oursisthefury69]

Like no other theory would ever even have a thread on it worded in such a fashion. Not is it plausible, not is it true, not where is the requisite evidence, but "what is the merit", what is the good reasoning for it coming to pass and how does that coincide with the specific way I look at this theory? Nobody disputes Jon being Rhaegars son on the grounds of it tarnishing him and Eddards relationship dynamic. Nobody takes issue with Catelyn going from having to use maternal instinct and having a morally righteous/sympathetic mindset/character to being the muderous vagabond Stoneheart. (which is the type of thing GRRM likes to have, and is directly similar to Tyrion eventually possessing real amounts of physical power, like u take such issue with, but thats a whole extra point against this nonsense)

For some reason, with this one particular theory though, its not a matter of disputing the actual evidence/plausibility/overall connection to broader scope of series; With this theory, detractors bring to the table things like "Tyrion wont have to use his brainsss anymore" "It'll ruin his and tywins relationshipo dynamic", both of which are entirely opinions, and i cant imagine why theyre brought up either. Like "ohhh i dont like this idea but theres too much evidence not being supressed on here now so I'll instead point out how in my specific opinion itd ruin abstract things" Because that matters how exactly? You think if you and enough people point out how your of such opinions GRRM will like see that and change the story? Lol, what is the point to a thread like this at all? "Oh i think itd be cooler if he almost got a dragon and never did" Ok cool for you i suppose, usually discussion is based on having reasoning for thinking somethng will happen, not saying how you'd personally prefer something didnt happen and then challenging people to prove abstract merits. Like its not a matter of justifying thngs within your own fanfiction its a matter of reading a story ad guessin wat ll happen. GRRM determines the merits of his own decisions if anybody, you dont get a idea of where the story s going and ten like question iftheres enough merit for GRRM to like go through with it

[Jô Maltese]

Like no other theory would ever even have a thread on it worded in such a fashion. Not is it plausible, not is it true, not where is the requisite evidence, but "what is the merit", what is the good reasoning for it coming to pass and how does that coincide with the specific way I look at this theory? Nobody disputes Jon being Rhaegars son on the grounds of it tarnishing him and Eddards relationship dynamic. Nobody takes issue with Catelyn going from having to use maternal instinct and having a morally righteous/sympathetic mindset/character to being the muderous vagabond Stoneheart. (which is the type of thing GRRM likes to have, and is directly similar to Tyrion eventually possessing real amounts of physical power, like u take such issue with, but thats a whole extra point against this nonsense)

For some reason, with this one particular theory though, its not a matter of disputing the actual evidence/plausibility/overall connection to broader scope of series; With this theory, detractors bring to the table things like "Tyrion wont have to use his brainsss anymore" "It'll ruin his and tywins relationshipo dynamic", both of which are entirely opinions, and i cant imagine why theyre brought up either. Like "ohhh i dont like this idea but theres too much evidence not being supressed on here now so I'll instead point out how in my specific opinion itd ruin abstract things" Because that matters how exactly? You think if you and enough people point out how your of such opinions GRRM will like see that and change the story? Lol, what is the point to a thread like this at all? "Oh i think itd be cooler if he almost got a dragon and never did" Ok cool for you i suppose, usually discussion is based on having reasoning for thinking somethng will happen, not saying how you'd personally prefer something didnt happen and then challenging people to prove abstract merits. Like its not a matter of justifying thngs within your own fanfiction its a matter of reading a story ad guessin wat ll happen. GRRM determines the merits of his own decisions if anybody, you dont get a idea of where the story s going and ten like question iftheres enough merit for GRRM to like go through with it

I basically agree with all you say... Except that OP XSarellaX does not deserve such a rant!

[UnmaskedLurker]

The only way for Tyrion to be central to the fight is to have a Dragon? Does this pertain to Jon, Dany, Arya, and Bran too? Just give Tyrion a crossbow and the Others will be shaking in their boots.

Jon and Dany also will have dragons. Bran will be central -- in a way -- due to his powers as the new greenseer replacing Bloodraven. I am not sure exactly what Arya's role (or Sansa's role) will be regarding the endgame, but I suspect it will be more peripheral than the 3HD (Jon, Dany and Tyrion).

[Black Dragons]

I would NOT be if that JOKE of show made him Dragon Rider ! ps TYRION IS NOT TARGARYEN he is son Tywin Lannister let it go people!

[UnmaskedLurker]

I would NOT be if that JOKE of show made him Dragon Rider ! ps TYRION IS NOT TARGARYEN he is son Tywin Lannister let it go people!

And how are you so sure?

[Lord Freypie]

I would NOT be if that JOKE of show made him Dragon Rider ! ps TYRION IS NOT TARGARYEN he is son Tywin Lannister let it go people!

There are like 20 times more hints he may be one in the books than in the show.

I'd even suspect the show will cut A+J story even if it's to be revealed in books, so their Tyrion may appear even more saintly, taming dragons with just his legendary cock.