Stark & Lannister before aGoT

[rayarts]

I think that if the Lannisters would have acted with as much honor (as seen by the Starks) as Starks do,

then there would be no problems - no matter who is from "the country" and "the city" and who is richer and who got more profit from the war.

You just cannot stand people with total different characteristics and values.

Even in real life - if I meet snobs, who just live with and for vanity - no matter how clever or powerful or rich they are, then I dislike them instantly.

Our values colide and thats it.

[Moondancer]

I think that the Lannisters were well aware that their rule was a precarious one and were looking for the ways to secure it further and centralise it. While Robert believed the throne was won by his hammer, the Lannisters knew that the reigned was to be shaped in the times of "peace". When Robert set out to seek Ned's help, I think they saw a threat in that - Cersei certainly did.

The Baratheon-Lannister led kingdom would face opposition almost constantly, by the simple merit of not being Targs. In the Westeros' eyes, they would be always the usurpers. Cersei is especially concerned with appearing like a proper "royalty" as shown by the incident between Arya and Joff (This would never happen with Targs etc). I believe it was the same sentiment that drove Robert to deny support to Ned where Lady was involved. In short, the ruling struggle is real.

I cannot, however, remember the instances Cersei was jealous of Lyanna, no. I suppose that the present situation where a Lannister maiden was risen to be the Queen and not a Stark one isn't of importance to the North - Ned. We have no reason to believe Ned was similar to Rickard in that respect.

So, beyond the usual gaming at the court and the heavy shadow that was being cast by the recent, bloody past, I don't think Lannisters and Starks were any deeper involved or preoccupied with each others. This is a moment in time when they are the enemies. The current relations could set a precedent for the future generations,though.

[Barty]

Lannisters had no honor, were child killers, kingslayers and oathbreakers. Whats not to like??

Also the Lannisters (especially Cersei) seem to look down upon the Northerners (Seen from the disdainful way in which Joffrey saw WinterFell or Cersei's behavior during the feast) and the Northerners seem to look down upon all southerners (Can be seen from Desmond's statement about every northerner being equivalent of 10 southerners and the way Benjen treats Tyrion). Northerners thought they were better than the southerners and the Southerners thought they were better than the Northerners - Leads to a lot of friction.

[Frey Pie]

The Starks were insanely jealous of them. It was kind of pathetic.

Oh ya spot on. Not like the Lannisters were jealous of Ned being named the new Hand? Or did I make up that Cersei tells Jaime he should be hand?

How about the royal marriages that Robert and Ned agreed to?

Benjen was going to the wall and Ned was already married During the rebellion. Robert was made marry Cersei to cement the realm. That's how well the Lannisters were rewarded. So where does Stark jealousy come into it if we're being honest?

[Kasporio]

Sadly, Lannisters are a bunch of douchebag, untrustworthy inbreds. Wonder why they have so much fans. Ok, the starks, or all the other great houses, are boring, and looks stupid in contrast but... the only good lannister is a dead one... or Tyrion

[Frey Pie]

I think that the Lannisters were well aware that their rule was a precarious one and were looking for the ways to secure it further and centralise it. While Robert believed the throne was won by his hammer, the Lannisters knew that the reigned was to be shaped in the times of "peace". When Robert set out to seek Ned's help, I think they saw a threat in that - Cersei certainly did.

The Baratheon-Lannister led kingdom would face opposition almost constantly, by the simple merit of not being Targs. In the Westeros' eyes, they would be always the usurpers. Cersei is especially concerned with appearing like a proper "royalty" as shown by the incident between Arya and Joff (This would never happen with Targs etc). I believe it was the same sentiment that drove Robert to deny support to Ned where Lady was involved. In short, the ruling struggle is real.

I cannot, however, remember the instances Cersei was jealous of Lyanna, no. I suppose that the present situation where a Lannister maiden was risen to be the Queen and not a Stark one isn't of importance to the North - Ned. We have no reason to believe Ned was similar to Rickard in that respect.

So, beyond the usual gaming at the court and the heavy shadow that was being cast by the recent, bloody past, I don't think Lannisters and Starks were any deeper involved or preoccupied with each others. This is a moment in time when they are the enemies. The current relations could set a precedent for the future generations,though.

Did Robert not call out Lyannas name during there wedding night? Bound to piss of Cersei and who could blame her? So she gave jaime the ride. This coupled with Robert going straight to see the tomb in WF lead's me and many others to believe Cersei is jealous/envious/just pure hates Lyannas memory

[Andreas88]

Did Robert not call out Lyannas name during there wedding night? Bound to piss of Cersei and who could blame her? So she gave jaime the ride. This coupled with Robert going straight to see the tomb in WF lead's me and many others to believe Cersei is jealous/envious/just pure hates Lyannas memory

I do think above is one of the reasons why Cersei doesn't like the Starks, but there are many other reasons as mentioned in other posts.

The conclusion seems to be there is not just one big reason, but multiple smaller ones that added to the fact they don't like each other.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It's a very recent development, based entirely on Tywin's and Jaime's actions during Robert's Rebellion. The Starks despise them for obvious reasons and the Lannisters reciprocate, especially Jaime, because he considers Ned his measurement for honor and comes up awfully short.

But how can you explain the Jaime/Tyrion discussion? They are already talking about sides, and Tyrion is aware of it too. This cannot be just a general arrogance toward everyone.

Jaime knew that he had tried to murder Bran, Tyrion knew that Jaime tried to murder Bran, Jaime knew that Tyrion knew, and Tyrion indicated that he wished Bran to tell on Jaime.

[Frey Pie]

I do think above is one of the reasons why Cersei doesn't like the Starks, but there are many other reasons as mentioned in other posts.

The conclusion seems to be there is not just one big reason, but multiple smaller ones that added to the fact they don't like each other.

Ya completely agree. I don't think there's any greater mystery to it. It is surprising though that there isn't more history to it as shown from the world book

[Andreas88]

Ya completely agree. I don't think there's any greater mystery to it. It is surprising though that there isn't more history to it as shown from the world book

You have a point here, definitely because the initial hostility between Starks and Lannisters is the base for the whole story to begin with.

[Lord Highland]

Jaime knew that he had tried to murder Bran, Tyrion knew that Jaime tried to murder Bran, Jaime knew that Tyrion knew, and Tyrion indicated that he wished Bran to tell on Jaime.

How was Tyrion supposed to know that? Do you have any proof that he knew? I thought he honestly didn't know, then, or later, in the Eyrie.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How was Tyrion supposed to know that? Do you have any proof that he knew? I thought he honestly didn't know, then, or later, in the Eyrie.

Tyrion knew about the twincest for a very long time. Tyrion knew that Jaime and Cersei were in that room at the relevant time. Tyrion knew that Bran fell from that particular tower.

And Tyrion knows his siblings well enough that he doesn't need to be a mindreader to know their minds.

That's the point of this particular scene.

[Moondancer]

Did Robert not call out Lyannas name during there wedding night? Bound to piss of Cersei and who could blame her? So she gave jaime the ride. This coupled with Robert going straight to see the tomb in WF lead's me and many others to believe Cersei is jealous/envious/just pure hates Lyannas memory

And yet she mentions Lyanna in her thoughts only once, "the Wolf girl". Her pride was wounded and she directed her hatred towards Robert for his treatment of her, not because of Lyanna. She was dead and it was Robert who chose to keep her alive.

As for the tomb scene, Cersei was obviously concerned about the appearances and felt she was slighted by Robert's action and that everybody noticed her embarrassment.

[Lord Highland]

Tyrion knew about the twincest for a very long time. Tyrion knew that Jaime and Cersei were in that room at the relevant time. Tyrion knew that Bran fell from that particular tower.

How did he know they were there? Is this in the books?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How did he know they were there? Is this in the books?

It was their room (either Jaime's or Cersei's). He knew that they weren't anywhere else.

And yes, that's part of the books. It's referenced by other characters (Ned and Cat) as well. Much later though.

[Humble Maester]

Yeh, Tywins treatment of Rhaegars family was the main reason for sour relations. Also didn't Ned get pissed with Robert and return North when Robert OK'd Tywin?

I think you might be misremembering a bit. Ned and Robert had a falling out right after the Sack because Robert was fine with butchering the Targaryen children, and Ned stormed off south to relieve Stannis and the continued to Tower of Joy. In the aftermath of Lyanna's death and their shared grief Robert and Ned reconciled.

[SummerSphinx]

How did he know they were there? Is this in the books?

I don't have my book with me, but when Tyrion visits C&J to tell them the maester said that Bran might live, the text specifically says that Tyrion watched their faces and saw them exchange "a look" -even if very brief.

He suspected something, at least.

Anyway, I think Cercei really believes the line about playing GoT: You win or you die. Thus EVERYONE but Jaime and her kids and maybe a few other relatives she doesn't really even like are AGAINST her.

Plus, Cercei and Jaime KNOW that they are committing incest and treason. They would be significantly safer if Robert were dead-and significantly less safe with Rob's old buddy, Ned, hanging around in KL. Marrying his kids to theirs. Chatting with LF, Varys, and Stannis.

Plus, if Ned is hiding a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the last thing he needs is for Jaime or Cercei to see something like "Jon's posture and profile are just like Rhaegar's." That is speculation, but it could be true.

Finally, it is not unheard of for old best friends to dislike a new spouse. And Cercei does not like Robert, so why is she supposed to like his old best buddy?

Plus, Cercei was jealous of Lyanna for two reasons (BOTH Rhaegar and Robert preferred Lyanna, and Cercei was supposed to be so beautiful and a Queen). Cercei actually did have a thing for Rhaegar from afar, and she was excited when Tywin told her she would marry him. She asked Maggi if she would marry "the Prince."

But Elia got him, and it was a big slight to both Tywin AND Cercei. So how is she supposed to feel when Rhaegar runs away with Lyanna (not her). And then she finally does get to marry the King, and on his wedding night, he wants Lyanna, too. For a proud, beautiful woman, that stings.

Plus, all the stuff others said.

Plus, I think Ned blames the Lannisters a bit for the degeneration he sees in Robert. Maybe that is unfair and untrue, but he wonders.

[averde]

Ned is all about honor. Tywin showed lack of honor both in turning up late to a war that was all but won and in killing the Targ babies. Ned also perceives Jaime's actions as dishonorable, since he broke his Kingsguard vows to kill Aerys (although we now know that that particular killing was not within its own sort of honor).

The Lannisters don't really like anyone. They only act nice if they believe they need something from you or if you are indebting yourselves to them. The Starks are one of the greatest houses in the realm. They don't need Lannister gold and don't seek Lannister favor. They command more land and a larger army than the Lannisters.

I think it is easy to see why two of the proudest houses in the realm might dislike one another.

this.

[Frey Pie]

And yet she mentions Lyanna in her thoughts only once, "the Wolf girl". Her pride was wounded and she directed her hatred towards Robert for his treatment of her, not because of Lyanna. She was dead and it was Robert who chose to keep her alive.

As for the tomb scene, Cersei was obviously concerned about the appearances and felt she was slighted by Robert's action and that everybody noticed her embarrassment.

Yes I agree she directed her hatred at Robert but would it not seem obvious that this would lead to ill feeling for the Starks? We don't get her POV in Winterfell nor does she ever think of the trip often as far as I recall but I would think if we did we'd see her mentally sneering at the poor and rural surroundings

[Lord Highland]

Jaime knew that he had tried to murder Bran, Tyrion knew that Jaime tried to murder Bran, Jaime knew that Tyrion knew, and Tyrion indicated that he wished Bran to tell on Jaime.

I don't have my book with me, but when Tyrion visits C&J to tell them the maester said that Bran might live, the text specifically says that Tyrion watched their faces and saw them exchange "a look" -even if very brief.

He suspected something, at least.

I agree that Tyrion suspected something based on that look, but my point is, even if he did, Jame wouldn't have known about it. The suspicion starts right there, meanwhile Jaime is taking about taking sides, as if this was a well-established and publicly known conflict.