Stark & Lannister before aGoT

[The Wolves]

Yes I agree she directed her hatred at Robert but would it not seem obvious that this would lead to ill feeling for the Starks? We don't get her POV in Winterfell nor does she ever think of the trip often as far as I recall but I would think if we did we'd see her mentally sneering at the poor and rural surroundings

I remember her being shocked that Tyrion would stay in the North when he told her and Jaime that he was staying to see the Wall.

[Greg B]

Others have emphasized the obvious differences in values, but I think there were other differences as well. Actually, there were only differences. In the wake of Robert's Rebellion, the open question was whether the Seven Kingdoms could ever be a united realm without Targaryens. The post-Rebellion order was held together only by the marriage of Robert and Cersei (and the children their marriage produced, yuk yuk). Beyond that union, the Great Houses have little in common and it will take time to forge the marriage alliances that might bind them together under a new dynasty. This was the plan, obviously, beginning with Sansa and Joffrey, but if you look further back, really none of this work had been done. The Lannisters seem to have rarely married outside the Westerlands; likewise, the Starks (prior to Ned) seemed to marry within the North -- Rickard had married his cousin, Lyarra Stark, Edwyle had married a Locke, etc. It seems that throughout the Targaryen era, the Great Houses continued to conduct their political affairs as if they were seven kingdoms, with marriages typically between the noble houses of each.

In summary, with no Targaryen conqueror and no political infrastructure in the form of marriage alliances in place for generations, there was nothing binding the Great Houses together into a unified realm. There were only differences, particularly pronounced between Stark and Lannister: geographic, historical, economic, political, ethnic, religious.

[SummerSphinx]

I agree that Tyrion suspected something based on that look, but my point is, even if he did, Jame wouldn't have known about it. The suspicion starts right there, meanwhile Jaime is taking about taking sides, as if this was a well-established and publicly known conflict.

OK, but both Jaime and Cercei have been committing high treason for years. If Ned finds out, they are dead and they know that.

Tyrion doesn't know what Bran saw (but suspects), and I see your quoted exchange between Tyrion and Jaime as having subtext like this:

T: "My dear brother, I know we don't talk openly about your twicest with Cercei, but I know you were alone with Cercei in that tower yesterday. Very strange the boy fell. I wonder what he would tell us if woke up? I suspect you may have had something to do with this..."

J: "You know us too well, clever brother. I confess, he saw something. If that boy wakes and talks, we are caught and are both guilty of treason. I know you love me, why would wish something that would pit you against me in something that would lead to my death...or all out war between Lannister and Baratheon/Stark?"

All between the lines, but taking sides doesn't need to mean more.

Plus, both Tyrion and Jaime are probably very aware that Ned as Hand could jeopardize Lannister power in KL. They both know Cercei doesn't like Starks. They probably know about "you win or you die," and it would be better for Lannisters if a Lannister toady were Hand.

[Frey Pie]

Others have emphasized the obvious differences in values, but I think there were other differences as well. Actually, there were only differences. In the wake of Robert's Rebellion, the open question was whether the Seven Kingdoms could ever be a united realm without Targaryens. The post-Rebellion order was held together only by the marriage of Robert and Cersei (and the children their marriage produced, yuk yuk). Beyond that union, the Great Houses have little in common and it will take time to forge the marriage alliances that might bind them together under a new dynasty. This was the plan, obviously, beginning with Sansa and Joffrey, but if you look further back, really none of this work had been done. The Lannisters seem to have rarely married outside the Westerlands; likewise, the Starks (prior to Ned) seemed to marry within the North -- Rickard had married his cousin, Lyarra Stark, Edwyle had married a Locke, etc. It seems that throughout the Targaryen era, the Great Houses continued to conduct their political affairs as if they were seven kingdoms, with marriages typically between the noble houses of each.

In summary, with no Targaryen conqueror and no political infrastructure in the form of marriage alliances in place for generations, there was nothing binding the Great Houses together into a unified realm. There were only differences, particularly pronounced between Stark and Lannister: geographic, historical, economic, political, ethnic, religious.

Fantastic point

[RoamingRonin]

I doubt Ned approved for Tywin's methods even before the rebellion.

[Asche]

I doubt Ned approved for Tywin's methods even before the rebellion.

Not necessarily.

The Starks have their own rather merciless history of dealing with rebels.

See the Greystarks as an equivalent to the Reynes

[Fat Mac]

The Stark-Lannister rivalry is recent, I think. It all spawns from Ned's disdain for Tywin and Jaime, which is funny, because old Starks might have had no problem with how Tywin acts during war.

[SummerSphinx]

Not necessarily.

The Starks have their own rather merciless history of dealing with rebels.

See the Greystarks as an equivalent to the Reynes

Some truth to that, but Tywin had been the Mad King's had for a LONG time. He had only recently left KL before the war, IIRC. It would be difficult to pin down which bad decisions prior to the war were Mad King Aerys being mad, and which decisions were made by Tywin intentionally.

Tywin doesn't sound like the sort of guy people loved or even liked. He hated others for being grasping, but he was always grasping. He wanted everything, he didn't make friends.

[WolfgangII]

I agree with the majority of the analyses here, but I feel we haven't discussed to important facts:

1) The North is very different (in religion, ethnicity, costumes, values) than any other region of Westeros. A lot of Southerns does not particular like the Northerns, but respect Ned (or have close ties like the Arryns and Tullys) a lot.

2) The Hour of the Wolf: The Starks does not a great reputation among the Southern houses mostly because what they did almost 200 years ago. At the end of the Dance of the Dragons, Lord Cregan Stark was marching towards King's Landing when Aegon II was poisoned. He then, force himself as Hand of the King of the feeble child-King Aegon III "The Broken". In his only day as Hand, Cregan arrested and punished the people responsible for Aegon III death. He resigned the day after and leave a great part of his Northern army behind. The Hour of the Wolf is famous among Westorosi nobility because it shows how Northerns deal with things, and is one of the reasons Southerns doesn't trust the Starks very much.

[AerionBrightflameII]

They are polar opposites regarding honor, religion, wealth, cultivation and attitude.

I don't think jealousy was Neds style either they just rubbed each other the wrong way.

[Moondancer]

Yes I agree she directed her hatred at Robert but would it not seem obvious that this would lead to ill feeling for the Starks? (...) but I would think if we did we'd see her mentally sneering at the poor and rural surroundings

In the land of Cersei logic, everything is possible. :) But, she doesn't blame the Starks at all.

She refers to Eddard as loyal fool and the Northern castle/the entire area as grey waste. I don't think the Starks were poor, though. (Winterfell is not a henhouse, HBO.)

[Ruby Fforde]

And yet she mentions Lyanna in her thoughts only once, "the Wolf girl". Her pride was wounded and she directed her hatred towards Robert for his treatment of her, not because of Lyanna. She was dead and it was Robert who chose to keep her alive.

As for the tomb scene, Cersei was obviously concerned about the appearances and felt she was slighted by Robert's action and that everybody noticed her embarrassment.

Later on she refers to Lyanna as 'that insipid dead sixteen year-old' or something. Don't have the book at hand at the mo, but maybe someone else knows it?

[Moondancer]

Later on she refers to Lyanna as 'that insipid dead sixteen year-old' or something. Don't have the book at hand at the mo, but maybe someone else knows it?

I think Jon refers to Myrcella as insipid, in AGoT.

"If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

She had never forgiven Robert for killing him. But then, lions were not good at forgiving. As Ser Bronn of the Blackwater would shortly learn."

^ End of the chapter.