R+L=J v. 149

[MtnLion]

If Allyria is Ashara's daughter, my money would be on Ned rather than Brandon being the father though.

That would go against what we know about Ned. Ned was never the boy he was.

[Lady Darry]

That would go against what we know about Ned. Ned was never the boy he was.

It would also be strange that he took a bastard he didn't father home and left a bastard he fathered at Starfall.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I'll go get the Kleenex so we can all cry together at the thought of this tragic figure...

:P

[matchesmcfly]

That would go against what we know about Ned. Ned was never the boy he was.

brandon wouldn't haved fucked the girl that ned was in love with. he went south like leeroy jenkins in search of rhaegar for going away with lyanna, but he's gonna take the virtue of the woman his younger brother loved? nah. can't see it.

[BearQueen87]

brandon wouldn't haved fucked the girl that ned was in love with. he went south like leeroy jenkins in search of rhaegar for going away with lyanna, but he's gonna take the virtue of the woman his younger brother loved? nah. can't see it.

Well, first I think you're making too much out of Ned's feelings for Ashara. Wanting to dance with a beautiful woman = / = being in love with. Ned never thinks of Ashara in the present day. Not even in passing. So whatever he felt it wasn't significant enough to warrant thought in his life. Second, Brandon "bloodied his sword a lot"...don't think his younger brother's passing attraction would stop him.

[Alia of the knife]

Ned helping with his brothers bastard would be in keeping as he protects Lyannas son.

He could not bring Brandons bastard home too, or Cat and Hoster might have been fed up with Stark mischief.

He can still be influential in Allyrias life without it interfering with her peace of mind.

[Sly Wren]

Ned helping with his brothers bastard would be in keeping as he protects Lyannas son.

He could not bring Brandons bastard home too, or Cat and Hoster might have been fed up with Stark mischief.

He can still be influential in Allyrias life without it interfering with her peace of mind.

True. But if Allyria is part Stark, and Brandon is her father--why is Edric telling Arya about his aunt Allyria's telling him about Ned and Ashara's romance? Odd cover story. Granted, Edric's "milk brother" comments are odd, so maybe he's an odd kid. But this seems rather convoluted for the Daynes to manage, even in their own family.

Granted, we have almost no information on all of this, and complicated is always an option. But seems like if Allyria is part Stark, Ned makes sense, too. Neither of them were promised to others, the war starts up, everything gets shot to hell--can't think of anything that says Ned's thoughts re: broken promises can only apply to Jon. Just seems Ned would at least be on the table in this highly hypothetical scenario . . .

Edited for spelling

[LmL]

Something just clicked for me on Allyria Dayne. I think I can explain why she was engaged to Beric.

Beric is a walking metaphor for the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai. Of course, it is my theory that those two titles refer to the same person, not a fact, so bear that in mind. That's my assertion. Beric has the starry cloak, which represents the night sky, the starry wisdom of the Bloodstone Emperor (he started the Church of Starry Wisdom), while the lightning represents the meteor strike on westeros, the same lightning bolt supposedly summoned by the Grey King. It's the same lightning bolt which actually was the Hammer of the Waters, but I digress. Beric has one eye, which represents the God's Eye, which ultimately refers to the moon in eclipse position in front of the sun at the moment of moon-comet impact. All of the one-eyed people have clues about the hammer of the waters and the meteor strike, but again I digress. Beric's Azor Ahai symbolism is obvious, as he wields the red flaming sword. He's also reborn, many times.

There are several AA / BSE stand-ins throughout the series, and each one tells us something about the original AA / BSE. In this case, our AA BSE guy was going to MARRY A DAYNE.

The Daynes of course are descended (according to my theory) from the ancient dragonlords of Asshai, which is why pale silver hair and purple eyes still pop up in their genetics from time to time (Ashara purple eyes & reminds Barristan of Dany, Darkstar silver streak in hair and dark purple eyes, Ned Dayne pale blond hair and dark blue eyes that appear purple). Beric playing AA / BSE and being engaged to a Dayne could be a hint that Dayens descend from Nissa Nissa, who would be the Amethyst Empress in my proposed scenario, which fits, since the amethyst eyes of the ghosts in Dany's dream suggest that the gems of the gemstone emperors indicate eye color. If the Daynes are descended from ancient dragonlords, they should have purple eyes and a connection to Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor, according to my theory, and this seems to match what Beric is showing here.

​If Allyria Dayne is half Stark, that would make the Daynes, with their purple and white imagery, are the union of the original blood of the dragon and the original blood of the wolf / blood of the north / ice blood, etc. I think Starks have Other blood, so that would really be an ice and fire union. In this sense, the Daynes were the first ice and fire mix, and Jon is essentially re-creating that phenomena by merging Targaryen and Stark blood.

This works quite well for me. The original LH, in this scenario, would be an ice / fire blood mix, just as Jon is. Jon is not a Dayne, but he's got he same "ingredients" so to speak.

[matchesmcfly]

Well, first I think you're making too much out of Ned's feelings for Ashara. Wanting to dance with a beautiful woman = / = being in love with. Ned never thinks of Ashara in the present day. Not even in passing. So whatever he felt it wasn't significant enough to warrant thought in his life. Second, Brandon "bloodied his sword a lot"...don't think his younger brother's passing attraction would stop him.

you and other people make more assumptions about brandon, then i ever did about ned. like i said, i have a hard time seeing him do to that to ned. especially after what edric dayne tells arya, and how ned reacts when cat brings her up. the wild wolf was already enough of a dickhead, and he'd be close to the douche that he saw rhaegar was for absconding with his sister.

to add to that, if ashara didn't love Ned, i have a hard time thinking that she'd jump to her death just because her brother was killed. he was a soldier. death happens to soldiers at war. now, ned returning dawn to her, AND telling her that they couldn't be because he had married cat before the war, would totally send her over the edge. if she loved brandon she would have killed herself before the rebellion began.

I'd buy rhaegar boning ashara(which i don't. i think she played a part in the lyanna abduction) before I'd buy brandon taking her maidenhood.

[Lady Darry]

I'd buy rhaegar boning ashara(which i don't. i think she played a part in the lyanna abduction) before I'd buy brandon taking her maidenhood.

This is actually a popular theory (at least on reddit a few days ago). Arya said (in Cat of the Canals) 'He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.' and some speculate that Rhaegar dishonored her and she looked at Stark because she wanted solace and she couldn't go to Elia, because she was his wife or her brother, because he was KG. So she went to Ned. And Ashara and Ned are a red herring for Ashara+Rhaegar and Lyanna and Rhaegar are a red herring for Lyanna+Dayne.

lol, we really need TWOW :)

[Sly Wren]

This is actually a popular theory (at least on reddit a few days ago). Arya said (in Cat of the Canals) 'He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.' and some speculate that Rhaegar dishonored her and she looked at Stark because she wanted solace and she couldn't go to Elia, because she was his wife or her brother, because he was KG. So she went to Ned. And Ashara and Ned are a red herring for Ashara+Rhaegar and Lyanna and Rhaegar are a red herring for Lyanna+Dayne.

lol, we really need TWOW :)

This would make a fabulous soap.

[matchesmcfly]

This is actually a popular theory (at least on reddit a few days ago). Arya said (in Cat of the Canals) 'He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.' and some speculate that Rhaegar dishonored her and she looked at Stark because she wanted solace and she couldn't go to Elia, because she was his wife or her brother, because he was KG. So she went to Ned. And Ashara and Ned are a red herring for Ashara+Rhaegar and Lyanna and Rhaegar are a red herring for Lyanna+Dayne.

lol, we really need TWOW :)

lol, I've read that but i don't buy it at all. seems like a lot of gymnastics in order to get Dawn in Jon's hands.

[Alia of the knife]

True. But if Allyria is part Stark, and Brandon is her father--why is Edric telling Arya about his aunt Allyria's telling him about Ned and Ashara's romance? Odd cover story. Granted, Edric's "milk brother" comments are odd, so maybe he's an odd kid. But this seems rather convoluted for the Daynes to manage, even in their own family.

Granted, we have almost no information on all of this, and complicated is always an option. But seems like if Allyria is part Stark, Ned makes sense, too. Neither of them were promised to others, the war starts up, everything gets shot to hell--can't think of anything that says Ned's thoughts re: broken promises can only apply to Jon. Just seems Ned would at least be on the table in this highly hypothetical scenario . . .

Edited for spelling

Well, I think that they brought Allyria up to have a "normal" life, and of course Jons cover story would be a part of Starfall lore. Allyria wouldn't know she wasn't Asharas sister.

This is actually a popular theory (at least on reddit a few days ago). Arya said (in Cat of the Canals) 'He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.' and some speculate that Rhaegar dishonored her and she looked at Stark because she wanted solace and she couldn't go to Elia, because she was his wife or her brother, because he was KG. So she went to Ned. And Ashara and Ned are a red herring for Ashara+Rhaegar and Lyanna and Rhaegar are a red herring for Lyanna+Dayne.

lol, we really need TWOW :)

Wow, if Rhaegar was that busy, he didn't have time to fulfill prophesy.

Now they are creating red herrings for red herrings.

Asharas character was only ever to fulfill the role in covering up who Jons mother really was- Lyanna. And given the times, again, It would have done no good for her to go to the Starks over Prince Rhaegar as they have zero influence, especially with the CP.

If Lyanna was a princess so to speak as a daughter of the kings of winter, Brandon would have been a prince himself. We see when Robb assumes the title of king in the north, Arya is referred to as a princess and her brothers as princes.

Also, why wait for Harrenhal to dishonor her when they were at dragonstone away from prying eyes? At the time of Harrenhal, Elia might have already been pregnant, or at least Rhaegar would not have known that Elia couldn't have anymore children, so at this point, there is no reason for Rhaegar to look beyond Elia. JonCon makes the point that the maesters told Rhaegar that Elia would bare no more children, which seems to be around this time that Rhaegar rode out and "fell upon" Lyanna.

Edit: Also all the textual information we have points to Rhaegar and Lyanna, with Elias health as the scape-goat for why Rhaegar did what he did. There is nothing linking Rhaegar and Ashara.

As an alternative theory, there is the theory that Ashara was Prince Lewyns lover, and he too fell at the Trident.

you and other people make more assumptions about brandon, then i ever did about ned. like i said, i have a hard time seeing him do to that to ned. especially after what edric dayne tells arya, and how ned reacts when cat brings her up. the wild wolf was already enough of a dickhead, and he'd be close to the douche that he saw rhaegar was for absconding with his sister.

to add to that, if ashara didn't love Ned, i have a hard time thinking that she'd jump to her death just because her brother was killed. he was a soldier. death happens to soldiers at war. now, ned returning dawn to her, AND telling her that they couldn't be because he had married cat before the war, would totally send her over the edge. if she loved brandon she would have killed herself before the rebellion began.

I'd buy rhaegar boning ashara(which i don't. i think she played a part in the lyanna abduction) before I'd buy brandon taking her maidenhood.

Why assume that Brandon didn't love Ashara?

I kind of think he was the one that actually loved her, player he might have been at one time, and Ned was his cover story because of his betrothal to Cat.

Lady Dustin says he didn't want to marry Cat, so I sort of read that it had more to do than him not wanting to fulfill the marital obligations as the heir of a great house, but something deeper in that he loved someone else. And I didn't read that as Lady D referring to herself, or she would have just told Theon that he wanted to marry her.

[Kingmonkey]

That would go against what we know about Ned. Ned was never the boy he was.

There's no question that Brandon was the player, but nor is there any reason to believe that Ned was a monk. The in-world opinion of Ned is that it's surprising but believable for him to have sired a bastard, and that's held by a lot of people who know him far better than we do. That Ned would not have done that simply doesn't wash as an argument, because it demands that nobody would believe that Jon Snow was Ned's son, or that we readers know Ned better than his own family and friends.

Lots of people, including the Daynes, believe that Ashara and Ned, had a thing. Before Ned married Cat, why not? Of course if they'd actually done the deed pre-marriage, that would be a bit of a bit unusual for Ned, sure. Robert says it would take a "rare wench" to make Ned Stark forget his honour, but every opinion we have of Ashara would put her very firmly in that category.

Sure Brandon is a possibility, but we're given good reason to believe that Ned might have been involved with Ashara, but very little reason to believe that Brandon was. The KoTLT story suggests Ned was attracted to her, the Daynes believe so too. Selmy mentions that Ashara "looked to Stark" and as far as I can see assuming that Ned would never do what lots of people believed he did is the only reason to assume it was Brandon.

Here's a thought I've been meaning to bring up for some time. Brandon was betrothed to Cat, Lyanna to Robert. What were Rickard's plans for Ned? We have no information on that. Benjen might yet have been too young to figure, but it seems unlikely that Ned would be left out of Rickard's southron ambitions entirely.

It would also be strange that he took a bastard he didn't father home and left a bastard he fathered at Starfall.

Actually not at all. Taking a bastard home was the oddity, as we know well from the way people react to Jon's presence at Winterfell. Leaving the bastard child with the mother -- or the mother's family, absent a living mother -- was the normal course of action. Had Ned fathered a bastard in Dorne, you'd expect it to stay in Dorne. Had Lyanna fathered a bastard in Dorne, you'd expect it to end up at Winterfell.

[Kingmonkey]

This is actually a popular theory (at least on reddit a few days ago). Arya said (in Cat of the Canals) 'He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.'

I'll just leave these here:

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."

A stupid princess, she thought, that's nothing to cry over. "My brothers might be dead," she confided.

Elmar gave her a scornful look. "No one cares about a serving girl's brothers."

It was hard not to hit him when he said that. "I hope your princess dies," she said, and ran off before he could grab her.

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince.

[Sly Wren]

​If Allyria Dayne is half Stark, that would make the Daynes, with their purple and white imagery, are the union of the original blood of the dragon and the original blood of the wolf / blood of the north / ice blood, etc. I think Starks have Other blood, so that would really be an ice and fire union. In this sense, the Daynes were the first ice and fire mix, and Jon is essentially re-creating that phenomena by merging Targaryen and Stark blood.

This works quite well for me. The original LH, in this scenario, would be an ice / fire blood mix, just as Jon is. Jon is not a Dayne, but he's got he same "ingredients" so to speak.

Very interesting. But--almost afraid to ask this--wouldn't that mean that if Arthur were Jon's father, Jon would then have the pro-valyrian dragon lord blood. Not as direct a dragon blood line as Rhaegar, but if not as direct, arguably older. No?

Well, I think that they brought Allyria up to have a "normal" life, and of course Jons cover story would be a part of Starfall lore. Allyria wouldn't know she wasn't Asharas sister.

Not denying any of that. Just seems that Ned as hypothetical father is still on the table, convoluted story or no.

[matchesmcfly]

Why assume that Brandon didn't love Ashara?

I kind of think he was the one that actually loved her, player he might have been at one time, and Ned was his cover story because of his betrothal to Cat.

Lady Dustin says he didn't want to marry Cat, so I sort of read that it had more to do than him not wanting to fulfill the marital obligations as the heir of a great house, but something deeper in that he loved someone else. And I didn't read that as Lady D referring to herself, or she would have just told Theon that he wanted to marry her.

I would also imagine it would put a crimp in his and Arthurs relationship as well.

because nothing in the text points to it at all.

and dustin isn't a realible narrator regarding brandon and cat. she's just mad she wasn't the one betrothed to brandon.

[Alia of the knife]

because nothing in the text points to it at all.

and dustin isn't a realible narrator regarding brandon and cat. she's just mad she wasn't the one betrothed to brandon.

Perhaps not yet, but since we didn't get most pf our information on both Ashara AND Brandon until Dance, I would say "keep reading." How is it that Brandon even knows Ashara to prevail upon her to dance with Ned?

That scenerio would require her to already know Brandon for her to grant him this favor. This isn't the modern day prom. This type of socializing was extremely important, and a high ranking lady like Ashara didn't dance with men beneath her rank. If you look at the matter of rank, and her other dance partners, they were all men like Brandon, scions of their Houses. And I speculate that with the exception of the Griffin, one of those men dishonored/sedcuced Ashara, but the wolf in this case I'd say is not the shy wolf, but the Alpha wolf, and I'd bet she's already danced with Brandon quite a few times.

As for Lady D, it's hard to know precisely what her feelings really are because I suspect she is trying to draw Theon out to see if he can be trusted,(I think she is still a Stark loyalist), but even if she is bitter, it doesn't mean she is wrong, thus rendered unreliable.

[LmL]

Very interesting. But--almost afraid to ask this--wouldn't that mean that if Arthur were Jon's father, Jon would then have the pro-valyrian dragon lord blood. Not as direct a dragon blood line as Rhaegar, but if not as direct, arguably older. No?

Not denying any of that. Just seems that Ned as hypothetical father is still on the table, convoluted story or no.

True. That's why the only sliver of a hair's breadth of doubt in RLJ that I have would be a Dayne heritage.

(look, I answered in only two three sentences).

[Lady Darry]

I'll just leave these here:

I stole that Frey quote from you and posted it there (Don't worry, I referenced you). I completely forgot about Frey connection. And that guy got 188 upovotes, it was one of the main supportive arguments.