R+L=J v. 149

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, if as Ran thinks, and I think more likely, that Ashara is Quaithe, she may have left her daughter in her parents care so she could have the best life she could. While Dorne may not frown on bastards, they are still bastards without a name. Unless she planned to make a match soley in Dorne, her status could be problematic.

And if Ned is sending her money, or perhaps had plans to help make a match for her, (wasn't Beric Dondarrion one of Neds men and a vassal of Roberts)?

As I said before, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. The actor Jack Nicholson, ("wheeeeres Johnny"), grew up thinking his grandparents were his parents alongside his "sister" who was really his birth mother.

Then Ashara's mother would have needed to have been pregnant at that moment as well, right? Or at least, having faked a pregnancy..

Yup that

Personally of the opinion that Quaite is Shiera Seastar. Ashara...I dunno. No body, no death and all that but honestly that might be one of GRRM's tricks.

Ashara turning out to be alive in the present story wouldn't surprise me that much. But Ashara has never been associated with magic, as far as I can recall, which is why I highly doubt she is Quaithe...

Yes, but as far as I understood from other interviews with him, he was in contact with GRRM. He talked with him about the cover. He draw something that will actually happen.

you and other people make more assumptions about brandon, then i ever did about ned. like i said, i have a hard time seeing him do to that to ned. especially after what edric dayne tells arya, and how ned reacts when cat brings her up. the wild wolf was already enough of a dickhead, and he'd be close to the douche that he saw rhaegar was for absconding with his sister.

to add to that, if ashara didn't love Ned, i have a hard time thinking that she'd jump to her death just because her brother was killed. he was a soldier. death happens to soldiers at war. now, ned returning dawn to her, AND telling her that they couldn't be because he had married cat before the war, would totally send her over the edge. if she loved brandon she would have killed herself before the rebellion began.

I'd buy rhaegar boning ashara(which i don't. i think she played a part in the lyanna abduction) before I'd buy brandon taking her maidenhood.

How so regarding Brandon?

At the time of Ashara's suicide, her brother had died, her child still born, the father of her child had either been killed (if he was Brandon) or married with a child (on the way) (Ned). Depending on how close she had been to Elia, her friend and her friend's children had been murdered. People she had known from Dragonstone, who might have travelled with Elia to KL, might also have died. All of that is quite traumatic, especially when all is taken together.

Take a look at Barristan's memories about Ashara. Or Jon Connington's memories about Rhaegar. Compare those to Ned's memories about Ashara. There's nothing.

Personally, I think it had been a crush, at Harrenhal. But if Ashara had been dishonored by a Stark at Harrenhal, my guess would be that it had been Brandon.

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, and somehow, a Stark was involved. Did a Stark dishonor her, and is that what Barristan means by "might she have looked to me instead of Stark"? Or did someone else dishonor her, and did Ashara turn to "Stark" for help?

For those who say that Ashara and Ned developed their love romance at Harrenhal, this dishonoring, presumably Ashara losing her maidenhead, would have been between Ashara and Ned, right? Hence the "looked at Stark" part. You'd expect Barristan to feel jealous about that, or angry.. In Westerosi views, that's not the thing to do, a woman is supposed to remain a maiden until her wedding night. So if it had been Ned, I'd find it very odd that Barristan remembers Ned with so much respect, and thinks rather well off him.. Not the way I'd expect a man (Barristan) to think of the man (Ned) who had caused the downfall of the woman (Ashara) he (Barristan) had loved so much.

Perhaps not yet, but since we didn't get most pf our information on both Ashara AND Brandon until Dance, I would say "keep reading." How is it that Brandon even knows Ashara to prevail upon her to dance with Ned?

That scenerio would require her to already know Brandon for her to grant him this favor. This isn't the modern day prom. This type of socializing was extremely important, and a high ranking lady like Ashara didn't dance with men beneath her rank. If you look at the matter of rank, and her other dance partners, they were all men like Brandon, scions of their Houses. And I speculate that with the exception of the Griffin, one of those men dishonored/sedcuced Ashara, but the wolf in this case I'd say is not the shy wolf, but the Alpha wolf, and I'd bet she's already danced with Brandon quite a few times.

As for Lady D, it's hard to know precisely what her feelings really are because I suspect she is trying to draw Theon out to see if he can be trusted,(I think she is still a Stark loyalist), but even if she is bitter, it doesn't mean she is wrong, thus rendered unreliable.

I got the feeling, when reading Lady Dustin telling that tale, that it had been something said by Brandon to soften the blow of the news of his betrothal to Barbrey.

That stupid song is likely a part of the "The Dance of the Dragons", which chronicles the Dance of the Dragons civil war.

Spoiler

Helaena Targaryen (sister wife of Aegon II) was forced by a pair of assassins to choose which of her two sons they were going to kill, after she chose one the assassins killed the other one. She locked herself in a tower, eventually went mad and hurled herself off Maegor's Holdfast.

Helaena had been a Queen, though, not a merely a Princess. A princess jumping off a tower because "her prince" her died, doesn't sound like a mother committing suicide after having gone mad when her son was killed in front of her.

[Kingmonkey]

There are two important differences between Readers and characters-who-know-Ned-well.

First, readers have really been inside Ned's head. This isn't fallible, but it means that we do actually have means of knowing him deeper than any character, even Catelyn. Its clear several of the things he thinks that we see are thoughts he would never make plain to anyone else. Like the danger of some secrets or how far Catelyn would go if their children were at risk, for example.

We do indeed get to see some of his thoughts, but they've seen his actions day in and day out for years. We also get to see a highly edited selection of his thoughts which the author quite clearly avoids revealing too much about anything that would give the story's mysteries away. The idea that Ned has an intense sense of honour is not something that getting into his head is required to pick up, it's well known to those who know him. However we have, through our in-his-head insight, a knowledge of just how secretly guilty Ned feels. We know he struggles with his honour, and we know that he is plagued by pangs of guilt about things that are never explained to us.

Second, perhaps even more importantly, characters are faced with the palpable fact (to them) that he did do this. The physical evidence is right there in front of them and so is his own word. Its the old conundrum - if he's so honourable he wouldn't do that then you have to believe him when he behaves as though he did. So that knowledge is a base foundation of their thinking. They don't think 'he wouldn't slip up like that so he must be lying' because thats fundamentally inconsistent both internally (the conundrum) and externally (the proof he did slip up is right there in front of them - he treats Jon, who looks like him, as his bastard). That only leaves them with simple acceptance that he could slip up like that because he did slip up like that. For them, the character evidence is conflicted but the physical evidence is clear and matches some of the character evidence so they shrug and accept the conflict between apparent character and apparent action.

This to me seems like slightly circular reasoning. If they believe that Ned is too honourable to slip up, then it raises serious questions about Jon. If they believe that Jon is Ned's son, then they do not believe that Ned is too honourable to slip up. There's a two-way relationship here. The idea that Ned can slip up comes from the credibility of Jon as his bastard, I agree. However, the credibility of Jon as his bastard also relies on the idea that Ned can slip up.

The point here is that people find the story of Jon credible. If the only evidence that makes it credible is the presence of Jon, you have circular reasoning. Yes, people do reason in a circular way, but it seems unlikely that nobody would say "hang on a minute..." if everything else suggested there was simply no way Ned might behave like this.

Let's keep in mind here we're discussing the possibility that Ned fathered a bastard daughter before he was betrothed to Cat. Let's also consider the possibility -- for we do no know that it is not true -- that before circumstances forced him to marry Cat, he was entirely intent on marrying Ashara. Ned's marriage plans -- or Rickard's plans for Ned -- are notably omitted from the information we have. Ashara committed suicide for reasons that are not clear, after Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. Had Ned told Ashara that not only had he been forced to kill her brother, but that the wedding was off, she has more reason to be upset.

From Ned's perspective at the time, it's entirely credible that this would not be a very serious lapse, if he intended to marry Ashara. Nor can we conclude that Ned was as strict in his sense of honour 14 years previously. Nor that just because he was no Robert he didn't have raging hormones of his own to deal with.

I don't think you've really thought through this objection beyond the superficial.

The thoughts we have of Ned are the thoughts of a man 14 years older, who thinks of "broken promises" in the plural, as well as promises kept. Who "...would [not] lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter". Who responds with cool courtesy when Robert presses him about Jon's mother, but when Robert mentions dishonour, his mouth "tightened in anger" and he says "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn". Who believes a lie can be "not without honor". Who, when Cat asked him if Ashara was Jon's mother, not only defends Jon but makes sure that Ashara's name is never mentioned again, "the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her." Who, when thinking of bastards does not think only in terms of honour and dishonour, but also wonders why the gods "fill men with such lusts".

No, this isn't superficial. This is questioning the superficial. The superficial interpretation is that Ned is exactly what people keep saying he is, a man of simple honour. When we look more closely at what he thinks, we see that he is a much more complex person. Robert believes that Ned could "never lie for love nor honor", yet this entire thread is all about how when you read between the lines, you realise that he can.

If we accept the superficial reading of Ned, then he's too honourable to have slept with Ashara. I find it a rather strange argument to suggest that Ned is prepared to lie to his wife for 14 years, but was too honourable for it to be possible that he might sleep with another woman when he was a horny unmarried teenager. Of course this is frequently trotted out as a reason to believe in R+L=J, so it's a comfortable reading if you believe R+L=J. I do, but I don't do comfortable readings when there's good reason to consider them over simplification. Luckily we don't need that for R+L=J at all.

[corbon]

We do indeed get to see some of his thoughts, but they've seen his actions day in and day out for years. We also get to see a highly edited selection of his thoughts which the author quite clearly avoids revealing too much about anything that would give the story's mysteries away. The idea that Ned has an intense sense of honour is not something that getting into his head is required to pick up, it's well known to those who know him. However we have, through our in-his-head insight, a knowledge of just how secretly guilty Ned feels. We know he struggles with his honour, and we know that he is plagued by pangs of guilt about things that are never explained to us.

What we get to see is enough to see his real, personal, sense of honour, which is not necessarily the same as the usual or societally accepted sense of 'honour'.

I don't think its accurate to say he struggles with his honour. I think its more accurate to say he recognises that sometimes various honourable requirements conflict and in following one he has defied another. I think he has a fairly clear self definition (in as much as it is clear for anyone - without actually thinking about it of defining it clear people generally 'know' which of two options is 'right' in their own codes, or 'more right than the other' if you prefer) so he doesn't struggle with it that way, but he feels the guilt of the lesser honours that he defiled while trying to uphold the greater honours (within his own internal system).

Its entirely possible we are both in agreement here but talking past each other, btw. :)

This to me seems like slightly circular reasoning. If they believe that Ned is too honourable to slip up, then it raises serious questions about Jon. If they believe that Jon is Ned's son, then they do not believe that Ned is too honourable to slip up. There's a two-way relationship here. The idea that Ned can slip up comes from the credibility of Jon as his bastard, I agree. However, the credibility of Jon as his bastard also relies on the idea that Ned can slip up.

Look at it the other way around.

Ned says he slipped up. In order to disbelieve that you have to credit him with enough dishonourability to make slipping up believable.

Its not that its circular logic to make it believable, its that its irrational to have a pretext to disbelieve it.

The point here is that people find the story of Jon credible. If the only evidence that makes it credible is the presence of Jon, you have circular reasoning. Yes, people do reason in a circular way, but it seems unlikely that nobody would say "hang on a minute..." if everything else suggested there was simply no way Ned might behave like this.

But its not the only evidence that makes it credible. The idea that Ned can slip up comes from at least three different places, not just the existence of Jon.

1. Nobody is truly perfect, we are all human and fail sometimes, somehow, some way, even the best of us. Plus, this is a fairly standard 'slipping up' scenario

2. Ned says he slipped up.

3. Jon exists, is treated as Ned's bastard, and looks like Ned

It isn't 'everything else' that suggests there is no way. Its one thing, and one thing only, and thats Ned's apparent general character. Thats vastly outweighed by the evidence showing he could slip up for characters. Its not for readers who have diffferent information and insights (a second thing, the contents we see inside Ned's head).

Let's keep in mind here we're discussing the possibility that Ned fathered a bastard daughter before he was betrothed to Cat. Let's also consider the possibility -- for we do no know that it is not true -- that before circumstances forced him to marry Cat, he was entirely intent on marrying Ashara. Ned's marriage plans -- or Rickard's plans for Ned -- are notably omitted from the information we have. Ashara committed suicide for reasons that are not clear, after Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. Had Ned told Ashara that not only had he been forced to kill her brother, but that the wedding was off, she has more reason to be upset.

From Ned's perspective at the time, it's entirely credible that this would not be a very serious lapse, if he intended to marry Ashara. Nor can we conclude that Ned was as strict in his sense of honour 14 years previously. Nor that just because he was no Robert he didn't have raging hormones of his own to deal with.

Are we? I was just saying that your objection that readers and characters-close-to-ned get different impressions didn't add up.

As for the rest, you are inserting a lot of potential possibilities for which there is no reliable evidence to make a hypothetical situation.

And yes, we should conclude that Ned almost certainly did have a particularly strict personal code 14 years before. We have data on that from Robert. What we shouldn't do is decide to go against the data we have in order to fit the theory we support. If we get new data, then by all means change the theory, but until then, lets go with the data we have, not against it.

The thoughts we have of Ned are the thoughts of a man 14 years older, who thinks of "broken promises" in the plural, as well as promises kept. Who "...would [not] lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter". Who responds with cool courtesy when Robert presses him about Jon's mother, but when Robert mentions dishonour, his mouth "tightened in anger" and he says "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn". Who believes a lie can be "not without honor". Who, when Cat asked him if Ashara was Jon's mother, not only defends Jon but makes sure that Ashara's name is never mentioned again, "the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her." Who, when thinking of bastards does not think only in terms of honour and dishonour, but also wonders why the gods "fill men with such lusts".

No, this isn't superficial. This is questioning the superficial. The superficial interpretation is that Ned is exactly what people keep saying he is, a man of simple honour. When we look more closely at what he thinks, we see that he is a much more complex person. Robert believes that Ned could "never lie for love nor honor", yet this entire thread is all about how when you read between the lines, you realise that he can.

If we accept the superficial reading of Ned, then he's too honourable to have slept with Ashara. I find it a rather strange argument to suggest that Ned is prepared to lie to his wife for 14 years, but was too honourable for it to be possible that he might sleep with another woman when he was a horny unmarried teenager. Of course this is frequently trotted out as a reason to believe in R+L=J, so it's a comfortable reading if you believe R+L=J. I do, but I don't do comfortable readings when there's good reason to consider them over simplification. Luckily we don't need that for R+L=J at all.

I do not find it remotely strange. Ned's honour code allows lies and broken promises, even painful lies, for the right reasons - to protect people he loves. Dishonouring a noble maiden doesn't fit anywhere within that sort of code.

Robert thinks that even dishonouring a peasant woman, one single slip, must have taken a pretty special wench. Not even the thought of a noblewoman, much worse, there.

[NozTheBlackfish]

Adding to "song"=war

"dance" has often been associated with fighting

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Adding to "song"=war

"dance" has often been associated with fighting

I don't see why song is war. Song is harmony not war.

Then Ashara's mother would have needed to have been pregnant at that moment as well, right? Or at least, having faked a pregnancy..

Faked pregnancy sounds correct.

[IMNHAAO]

I am coming from a few days at 104F/40C temperatures so my brain is half cooked, but was Benjen way too young to be interested in Ashara Dayne? I do not recall either one's age, or even an instance that could make it suspect, and the fact that it seems no one takes it into any consideration this possibility should be sign enough that it is crackpot, but hey why should I let pass a chance at embarrassing myself? :cool4:

[BearQueen87]

This is one of the thoughts that make me angry. Someone likes sex so for some strange reason he has no boundaries and his family means nothing to him.

Brandon can like sex all he wants, I'm sure he still cared about his family. Ned, at most, seems to have had a small crush on Ashara and I don't know if this attitude (small crush) was significant enough in Brandon's eyes to prevent him from making a pass at Ashara. For all we know, Ned got over that crush super quick and Brandon decided to act on whatever feelings he had because he knew Ned would be fine. Or, as Ygrain hinted at above, Brandon slept with Ashara because "everything was for Brandon." He can still love his family and do wrong by them. Happens all the time.

[BearQueen87]

I am coming from a few days at 104F/40C temperatures so my brain is half cooked, but was Benjen way too young to be interested in Ashara Dayne? I do not recall either one's age, or even an instance that could make it suspect, and the fact that it seems no one takes it into any consideration this possibility should be sign enough that it is crackpot, but hey why should I let pass a chance at embarrassing myself? :cool4:

Too young to be interested in her? Likely not since sexual attraction can start young-ish. Too young to actually be considered a suitor and involved with her? Yes, probably. He seems to be a few years younger than Lyanna who was...what....14-15 at HH (if she was 16 when she died)

[IMNHAAO]

Too young to be interested in her? Likely not since sexual attraction can start young-ish. Too young to actually be considered a suitor and involved with her? Yes, probably. He seems to be a few years younger than Lyanna who was...what....14-15 at HH (if she was 16 when she died)

Oh, pity. It could have been interesting if he took the black because she supposedly killed herself and instead she was still alive but now he is seemingly dead and Ned knew she was not really dead, but was miffed at her going for the younger brother... Do I hear a soap opera intro playing? I hate soap operas. Never mind, I am turning on the fans full blast hoping to get my synapses working again. At least I tried. :blush:

[The Twinslayer]

Sure, but don't you think it's notable that the only people who dismiss this being possible in Ned's case are book readers, rather than the characters in those books who know him.

I have no problem with this being out of character for Ned, but sometimes people do something that's a bit out of character. I find it hard to accept the notion that it's something Ned simply would not do, when none of the characters who know him far better than we readers do seem to have believed that.

When considering Ned's character and the possibility of "slipping," keep in mind that it is emphasized early on that Ned follows the Old Gods rather than the Seven. Then, the last thing we see him do -- the very last thing he does -- is to make a false confession that he plotted to murder and depose Joffrey. He makes that confession in the name of the Seven, not in the name of the Old Gods. He can't bring himself to lie to the Old Gods.

Where did he make his wedding vows to Catelyn? Not in a godswood: "And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully."

This may be a hint that Ned found a way to rationalize his "slipping."

[BearQueen87]

WRT Ned and Ashara: I agree it would be out of character with Ned as we know him in AGOT, but I don't think that's a good enough excuse for why Ned wouldn't have slipped. He was never the boy he was but people do "slip" and their characters are not static. What I find more convincing that he and Ashara were never together is the fact that Ned never thinks about her--either clearly and deliberately or metaphorically (he never dreams of a woman with purple eyes dancing, for example).

If Ned and Ashara were together--either two ships passing in the night or something more--I find it hard to imagine that he wouldn't think of her and what happened at least once before his death.

[Sly Wren]

The thoughts we have of Ned are the thoughts of a man 14 years older, who thinks of "broken promises" in the plural, as well as promises kept. Who "...would [not] lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter". Who responds with cool courtesy when Robert presses him about Jon's mother, but when Robert mentions dishonour, his mouth "tightened in anger" and he says "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn". Who believes a lie can be "not without honor". Who, when Cat asked him if Ashara was Jon's mother, not only defends Jon but makes sure that Ashara's name is never mentioned again, "the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her." Who, when thinking of bastards does not think only in terms of honour and dishonour, but also wonders why the gods "fill men with such lusts".

No, this isn't superficial. This is questioning the superficial. The superficial interpretation is that Ned is exactly what people keep saying he is, a man of simple honour. When we look more closely at what he thinks, we see that he is a much more complex person. Robert believes that Ned could "never lie for love nor honor", yet this entire thread is all about how when you read between the lines, you realise that he can.

If we accept the superficial reading of Ned, then he's too honourable to have slept with Ashara. I find it a rather strange argument to suggest that Ned is prepared to lie to his wife for 14 years, but was too honourable for it to be possible that he might sleep with another woman when he was a horny unmarried teenager. Of course this is frequently trotted out as a reason to believe in R+L=J, so it's a comfortable reading if you believe R+L=J. I do, but I don't do comfortable readings when there's good reason to consider them over simplification. Luckily we don't need that for R+L=J at all.

Agreed. If Ned did have a child with Ashara or someone else, it in no way undermines RLJ. And it would fully fit with the statements he makes re: men's lusts and honor and promises kept and broken. Would even provide some irony (which I admit my prejudice for)--Ned doesn't feel guilty for fathering Jon, but does for another child.

Brandon can like sex all he wants, I'm sure he still cared about his family. Ned, at most, seems to have had a small crush on Ashara and I don't know if this attitude (small crush) was significant enough in Brandon's eyes to prevent him from making a pass at Ashara. For all we know, Ned got over that crush super quick and Brandon decided to act on whatever feelings he had because he knew Ned would be fine. Or, as Ygrain hinted at above, Brandon slept with Ashara because "everything was for Brandon." He can still love his family and do wrong by them. Happens all the time.

This is completely possible--we have very little info on it. But Ned's reaction when Cat brings up her name suggests that he has at least some feelings for Ashara--context unknown. Plus Edric Dayne knows the story. Knows it well enough and seems comfortable enough with it to bring it up to Arya. Seems at least arguable the affair was not superficial, at least on Ashara's side. And with Ned's reaction to Cat, not to mention his statements that "it was all for Brandon," even marriage to Cat--seems arguable the romance with Ashara wasn't superficial on Ned's side, either.

[BearQueen87]

This is completely possible--we have very little info on it. But Ned's reaction when Cat brings up her name suggests that he has at least some feelings for Ashara--context unknown. Plus Edric Dayne knows the story. Knows it well enough and seems comfortable enough with it to bring it up to Arya. Seems at least arguable the affair was not superficial, at least on Ashara's side. And with Ned's reaction to Cat, not to mention his statements that "it was all for Brandon," even marriage to Cat--seems arguable the romance with Ashara wasn't superficial on Ned's side, either.

Agreed with "some feelings." It's just that those feelings could be a wide array: love, lust, regret, guilt, admiration, secrecy, jealousy, rage. I *do* think there is something that we're missing from this big picture but I'm just not convinced it was a secret affair and love child. (God, this really is a soap opera)

Added to this: Barristan knows that Ashara turned to Stark, yet he bears Ned no ill will or resentment. In fact, they seem to be on good terms both in AGOT and later when Barry speaks of Ned in Meereen. If Barry is really as bitter about Ashara turning toward Stark as he seems to be all those years later, then why is he chummy with Ned?

[PhilHibbs]

I am turning on the fans full blast hoping to get my synapses working again. At least I tried. :blush:

In this forum, the "fans" are always on full blast. (sorry, couldn't resist!)

[Consigliere]

This is completely possible--we have very little info on it. But Ned's reaction when Cat brings up her name suggests that he has at least some feelings for Ashara--context unknown.

I guess I interpretated that portion completely differently. In my view, Ned does not react that way because Cat brought up Ashara specifically but rather that Cat brought up the topic of Jon's mother, which he promptly shuts down. I suppose that Ned could have some feeling for Ashara but as BearQueen has pointed out: "feelings" covers quite a large range. If there was a love affair between the two and a child involved then I find it more than just a bit odd that in Ned's 15 POV chapters there is not even a single hint pointing towards that.

I consider Brandon to be a far more likely candidate as the father of Ashara's child, followed by Prince Lewyn. I still lean on the side of Ashara's child being stillborn though and I really hope that Allyria does not turn out to be a bastard. The Daynes are even more scarce that the Starks.

[stateofdissipation]

What we get to see is enough to see his real, personal, sense of honour, which is not necessarily the same as the usual or societally accepted sense of 'honour'.

I don't think its accurate to say he struggles with his honour. I think its more accurate to say he recognises that sometimes various honourable requirements conflict and in following one he has defied another. I think he has a fairly clear self definition (in as much as it is clear for anyone - without actually thinking about it of defining it clear people generally 'know' which of two options is 'right' in their own codes, or 'more right than the other' if you prefer) so he doesn't struggle with it that way, but he feels the guilt of the lesser honours that he defiled while trying to uphold the greater honours (within his own internal system).

Its entirely possible we are both in agreement here but talking past each other, btw. :)

Look at it the other way around.

Ned says he slipped up. In order to disbelieve that you have to credit him with enough dishonourability to make slipping up believable.

Its not that its circular logic to make it believable, its that its irrational to have a pretext to disbelieve it.

But its not the only evidence that makes it credible. The idea that Ned can slip up comes from at least three different places, not just the existence of Jon.

1. Nobody is truly perfect, we are all human and fail sometimes, somehow, some way, even the best of us. Plus, this is a fairly standard 'slipping up' scenario

2. Ned says he slipped up.

3. Jon exists, is treated as Ned's bastard, and looks like Ned

It isn't 'everything else' that suggests there is no way. Its one thing, and one thing only, and thats Ned's apparent general character. Thats vastly outweighed by the evidence showing he could slip up for characters. Its not for readers who have diffferent information and insights (a second thing, the contents we see inside Ned's head).

Are we? I was just saying that your objection that readers and characters-close-to-ned get different impressions didn't add up.

As for the rest, you are inserting a lot of potential possibilities for which there is no reliable evidence to make a hypothetical situation.

And yes, we should conclude that Ned almost certainly did have a particularly strict personal code 14 years before. We have data on that from Robert. What we shouldn't do is decide to go against the data we have in order to fit the theory we support. If we get new data, then by all means change the theory, but until then, lets go with the data we have, not against it.

I do not find it remotely strange. Ned's honour code allows lies and broken promises, even painful lies, for the right reasons - to protect people he loves. Dishonouring a noble maiden doesn't fit anywhere within that sort of code.

Robert thinks that even dishonouring a peasant woman, one single slip, must have taken a pretty special wench. Not even the thought of a noblewoman, much worse, there.

I do not find it remotely strange. Ned's honour code allows lies and broken promises, even painful lies, for the right reasons - to protect people he loves. Dishonouring a noble maiden doesn't fit anywhere within that sort of code.

Absolutely... and if we only have Selmy's account, then what happened at Harrenhal does not fit Ned's character.

However, Selmy's account and desctiption is not the only account.

When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. --Harwin aSoS BG pages 28-29

Without further support for either position on what happened at Harrenhal-- Ned and Ashara at Harrenhal may or may not have fit Ned's character.

Robert thinks that even dishonouring a peasant woman, one single slip, must have taken a pretty special wench.

...What do you say, Ned? Just you and me, two vagabond kinghts on the kingsroad, out swords at our sides and god knows what in front of us, and maybe a farmer's daughter or a tavern wench to warm our beds at night."

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege... to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are bot the boys that we were."

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled, "more's the pity. And yer there was that one time... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and those big sweet eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was...Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Meryll? You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla, yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like..."

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and me.

aGoT Page 105

There was no dishonoring of a peasant woman or a common girl or a tavern wench or a farmer's daughter.

According to Robert: Ned forgot NED'S HONOR --making Ned forget his honor once took a special wench--

According to Ned: Ned dishonored NED and CAT

According to the assertion: Ned dishonored COMMON WOMAN (peasant) --making Ned dishonor the special wench took a special wench--

This is nonsensical and unsupported,

Not even the thought of a noblewoman, much worse, there.

Without the nonsensical and unsupported, there is no tie between what Selmy thought and what Robert said.

That brings us back to Ned and Ashara at Harrenhal may or may not have fit Ned's character.

[BearQueen87]

I guess I interpretated that portion completely differently. In my view, Ned does not react that way because Cat brought up Ashara specifically but rather that Cat brought up the topic of Jon's mother, which he promptly shuts down.

That's how I read that passage as well. It's less about Ashara and more about shutting down conversation WRT Jon's mother (because, turns out, it's Ned's dead sister!)

I consider Brandon to be a far more likely candidate as the father of Ashara's child, followed by Prince Lewyn. I still lean on the side of Ashara's child being stillborn though and I really hope that Allyria does not turn out to be a bastard. The Daynes are even more scarce that the Starks

I never considered Prince Lewyn until reading J.Star's thoughts on the matter, but there is definitely some meat on that bone.

[Sly Wren]

Agreed with "some feelings." It's just that those feelings could be a wide array: love, lust, regret, guilt, admiration, secrecy, jealousy, rage. I *do* think there is something that we're missing from this big picture but I'm just not convinced it was a secret affair and love child. (God, this really is a soap opera)

Added to this: Barristan knows that Ashara turned to Stark, yet he bears Ned no ill will or resentment. In fact, they seem to be on good terms both in AGOT and later when Barry speaks of Ned in Meereen. If Barry is really as bitter about Ashara turning toward Stark as he seems to be all those years later, then why is he chummy with Ned?

Yes--the feelings could cover a wide range. And nothing says there has to be a secret love child. But, as Kingmonkey has argued above, a lot of the feelings in Ned's narrative could tie into guilt over Ashara, over his own child. But we are definitely missing information and it does not need to be a child.

Barristan--you're right, His reaction to Ned seems very ungrudging. Assuming he might have thought the "Stark" was Brandon. But then, not sure why he would know what happened better than the Daynes. Via Edric we have pretty good evidence that they know of and tell about Ned and Ashara's love. Could it be a cover or a mistake? Sure. But the Daynes would seem to be in a better position to know than Barristan exactly what happened.

I guess I interpretated that portion completely differently. In my view, Ned does not react that way because Cat brought up Ashara specifically but rather that Cat brought up the topic of Jon's mother, which he promptly shuts down. I suppose that Ned could have some feeling for Ashara but as BearQueen has pointed out: "feelings" covers quite a large range. If there was a love affair between the two and a child involved then I find it more than just a bit odd that in Ned's 15 POV chapters there is not even a single hint pointing towards that.

I consider Brandon to be a far more likely candidate as the father of Ashara's child, followed by Prince Lewyn. I still lean on the side of Ashara's child being stillborn though and I really hope that Allyria does not turn out to be a bastard. The Daynes are even more scarce that the Starks.

Ned's reaction could just be talk of Jon's mother--but the reaction is pretty intense. And works just as easily if Ned is trying to protect Ashara, with or without Jon.

No hint pointing at Ned's regret, and broken promises, and men's lusts, and bastard children, and dishonor? Granted, none of that proves Ned has a child. Nothing makes it necessary. But also nothing says that these feeling wouldn't apply. Instead of being evidence that Ned is Jon's father, would fit as evidence that Ned could be father of Ashara's child, dead or alive. And, of course, no need for the child, if it existed, to have survived. Allyria could easily be someone else's child.

[Consigliere]

Ned's reaction could just be talk of Jon's mother--but the reaction is pretty intense. And works just as easily if Ned is trying to protect Ashara, with or without Jon.

No hint pointing at Ned's regret, and broken promises, and men's lusts, and bastard children, and dishonor? Granted, none of that proves Ned has a child. Nothing makes it necessary. But also nothing says that these feeling wouldn't apply. Instead of being evidence that Ned is Jon's father, would fit as evidence that Ned could be father of Ashara's child, dead or alive. And, of course, no need for the child, if it existed, to have survived. Allyria could easily be someone else's child.

I don't see how any of that could reasonably be interpreted to point at Ned and Ashara and a child of theirs. Seems to me that one has to engage in quite a bit of mental gymnastics to make that work. The promise(s) are clearly linked to Lyanna and immediately preceding Ned's thought about the gods frowning on bastards and filling men with lust, he sees Jon's face.

[BearQueen87]

Yes--the feelings could cover a wide range. And nothing says there has to be a secret love child. But, as Kingmonkey has argued above, a lot of the feelings in Ned's narrative could tie into guilt over Ashara, over his own child. But we are definitely missing information and it does not need to be a child.

Barristan--you're right, His reaction to Ned seems very ungrudging. Assuming he might have thought the "Stark" was Brandon. But then, not sure why he would know what happened better than the Daynes. Via Edric we have pretty good evidence that they know of and tell about Ned and Ashara's love. Could it be a cover or a mistake? Sure. But the Daynes would seem to be in a better position to know than Barristan exactly what happened.

Good point. It could go either way--a love story or a cover up if Starfall is "in" on something. I think there's something to be said about the silence that comes from Starfall. We have yet to really meet anyone from that keep except in distant memory--and Edric, of course, but he's a young lad who is repeating what he's been told or overheard and that, again, could go either way, love story or cover up. But why keep such a prominent house silent in the novels if all you're going to reveal is that a dead character had a daughter with another (supposedly) dead character? (Reason #2246732 why we really need WOW)