Westeros, Middle-Earth, or Medeival Earth?

[jsberry]

Where would you rather live? Assume you are middle-class, neither lord nor peasant.

Westeros: People had fun, when there were no petty wars. And there was magic. Religious tolerance. But if your lord was cruel, life was tough.

Middle-Earth: A little magic, but lots of orcs. Long periods of peace between collosal wars. Seems boring though.

Medeival Earth: Capricious lords, plagues, witches and heathens burned at the stake.

[Orphalesion]

Middle Earth, as a normal person you have best chance of surviving in non-horrible conditions there. Especially if you live in Gondor you might even survive the colossal wars, since the Gondorians seem to be pretty good about evacuating non-combatants before bigger battles (such as the siege of Minas Tirith when they emptied the city of civilians, aside form a few healers and hid them in the mountains.) If you live in the early days of the 4th age, you live t the start of a long age of peace and prosperity with the waning Elves and Dwarves walking freely among men.

In Middle Earth there is no religion at all, at least not among the peoples of the West, Tolkien himself said they had no need for it, because they actually know for a fact who God is and what happens to them after death (even though they don't know the details) Large parts of Middle Earth are idealized and sanitized versions of the Pre-Middel Ages, with the higher morals of Tolkien's time added to them. If you live in the West you are very unlikely to live under a cruel or unjust lord. The Worst you can do in the West of Middle Earth is Rohan or Dale.

And define "boring" there's feasts and music and stuff galore.

Westeros and the real Middle Ages would both suck immensely as a normal person. You'd basically spend most of your days covered in shit, only for Gregor Clegane to come along one day, light your family on fire and then crush your skull with his bare hands.

[Criston of House Shapper]

I'd like to live in at least some places in Westeros, mainly the Vale or Dorne or the Reach, those seem kind of peaceful and chill. King's Landing actually doesn't seem too bad as a middle-class guy like a merchant or something.

[Jun Snoo]

Middle Earth definitely seems the safest. But I think I am going to get specific and say Bravos after the fall of Valyria. They seem a like a cool accepting culture. As former slaves they know what it is like to be under the yoke of oppression.

Maybe I could become First Sword!!! Who am I kidding. Fourth sword at best.

[Visenya Stark]

I'm going to have to say Westeros. I could meet up with several characters and tell them important information they need to know. I just hope I don't die in my travels.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'd like to live in at least some places in Westeros, mainly the Vale or Dorne or the Reach, those seem kind of peaceful and chill. King's Landing actually doesn't seem too bad as a middle-class guy like a merchant or something.

 

Only during the current saga. All those places have seen terrible hardships and wars throughout the years

 

Hell, the Reach is being raided by Ironborn right now and King's Landing was starving before the Tyrells joined the Lannisters

[IdoTheChoombi]

Too easy, Middle earth is the safest and will give me the best chance for a long happy life, even if i live in some place crappy like eriador or ruhn.

plus i might meet elves/dwarves/hobbits/other cool stuff.

[Ser Lepus]

Middle Eath. Average humans are nicer and more decent that in both Westeros or the real world, their governments doesn't seem arbitrary, cruel or oppresive save those under Sauron's banner. And most of the bad stuff seemed to happen at the frontiers during times of war. Middle Earth is an idealized Middle Ages land, with all the good parts without the nasty ones.
Gondor seems like a great place to live, and the lands west of Minas Tirith didn't seem threatened during the War of the Ring. Dol Amroth sounds like a nice place to live.

[mediterraneo]

I contest the fact that Middle-Earth is safest.
 

The only sources we have on it are from a strange hobbit, run to the west with the elves, that was part of the great elvish conspiracy to topple the regimes in Gondor and Rohan, to substitute the kings with friends.
One of the new "legiptimate" kings is a notorious necromancer, the other came to the place where his predecessor and his legiptimate heir had killed the Witch King, and five minutes later all of the army was chanting "Eomer King".
Both of Faramir and Eowyn are "alive and well in their dacia in Crimea" like soviet dead rulers...

How can you say that "in the west you are unlikely to be under a cruel or unjust ruler"?
The rohirrim hunt wose for sports! Wose are people, actually humans! It's an entire civilization composed of Ramsay Boltons!

Not even the worst gandalfian propaganda told similar things about the orcs, with all of its inherent racism.

 

Middle Earth lives under the heel of a unique, "true" religion, where you "know" about the gods - the Elves saw them a long time ago, they MUST be true! Wait...the same elves that supported Gandalf and the regime topplings in Gondor and Rohan, isn't it?

That's not a lack of religion, that's a religion imposed as unique by an elite of fanatics that use it for social control.

The same elves that insist, through their religion, to create a ladder of "races" closer or farther from the gods.
A ladder of merit of races.
 

On the "peace" in the Middle Earth. It's another gandalfian ruse.

Middle Earth is not "peaceful" anymore than the regime under Pax Romana. The temple of Ianus in Rome, who closed its doors in peace and opened them during campaigns stayed with its doors closed two years in a thousand.
In the same way, there is constant conflict between the goblin thrieving in the Misty Mountains and the people around them, elves, dwarves and humans alike. The dwarves everywhere live in a constant armed situation. The Mirkwood and its people are always ready for organized violence.

Civil wars in every country, in every moment.

And actual naval piracy going on even on the mouth and on the ports of the greatest organized polity of this world's west.

 

And the nature's dangers... Giant eagles roaming and preying on humanoids, giant wolves clever and organized enough to speak, giant spiders roaming the shadows and eating humanoids too, giant fire breathing dragons actually ruling the land... Man-eating trolls everywhere!

 

On the society...
There is actually no middle class. The hobbits are presented as such for propaganda reasons, but the Baggins, the Tuc and the Brandiwine are three of the main families of the hobbit land since ancient times, and Samwise is their serf.
The three families are actually involved in the armed regime change there after the start of the fourth age.

All of the character we met are nobles of some kind, landowners, princes, regents. A single piece of armour from one of the Baggins was valued more than all of the value of the hobbit land alltogether, to speak about the index of Gini and social uneaveness.

You cannot see traveling merchants - the land and most of all the sea are way too dangerous to travel.
And in human lands the artisans are considered inferior to both dwarven and elven ones, nor they have the industrial might of the orcs. In a word, they are an economical backwater, to be targeted by elven and dwarven exportation, like a colony. The lack of an artisan class is clear.

So what they are?
All of them simply countrymen, peasants and serfs. Minas Tirith may have no slaves, as Pentos.
But if you are not from a major family you are actually sent out of the walls, to hide yourself from the besieging orcs "in the mountains".
That is: the walls of Gondor protect you only as long as there is no need of them, then you are on your own.
And the mountains (Misty, Lone, northern, Mordor's) are the natural habitat of the orcs, not of the humans.

 

So no, I wouldn't want to live in such a dangerous, unjust, cruel world as Middle Earth, despite the internal propaganda of its rulers.

[Orphalesion]

I contest the fact that Middle-Earth is safest.
 

The only sources we have on it are from a strange hobbit, run to the west with the elves, that was part of the great elvish conspiracy to topple the regimes in Gondor and Rohan, to substitute the kings with friends.
One of the new "legiptimate" kings is a notorious necromancer, the other came to the place where his predecessor and his legiptimate heir had killed the Witch King, and five minutes later all of the army was chanting "Eomer King".
Both of Faramir and Eowyn are "alive and well in their dacia in Crimea" like soviet dead rulers...

How can you say that "in the west you are unlikely to be under a cruel or unjust ruler"?
The rohirrim hunt wose for sports! Wose are people, actually humans! It's an entire civilization composed of Ramsay Boltons!

Not even the worst gandalfian propaganda told similar things about the orcs, with all of its inherent racism.

 

Middle Earth lives under the heel of a unique, "true" religion, where you "know" about the gods - the Elves saw them a long time ago, they MUST be true! Wait...the same elves that supported Gandalf and the regime topplings in Gondor and Rohan, isn't it?

That's not a lack of religion, that's a religion imposed as unique by an elite of fanatics that use it for social control.

The same elves that insist, through their religion, to create a ladder of "races" closer or farther from the gods.
A ladder of merit of races.
 

On the "peace" in the Middle Earth. It's another gandalfian ruse.

Middle Earth is not "peaceful" anymore than the regime under Pax Romana. The temple of Ianus in Rome, who closed its doors in peace and opened them during campaigns stayed with its doors closed two years in a thousand.
In the same way, there is constant conflict between the goblin thrieving in the Misty Mountains and the people around them, elves, dwarves and humans alike. The dwarves everywhere live in a constant armed situation. The Mirkwood and its people are always ready for organized violence.

Civil wars in every country, in every moment.

And actual naval piracy going on even on the mouth and on the ports of the greatest organized polity of this world's west.

 

And the nature's dangers... Giant eagles roaming and preying on humanoids, giant wolves clever and organized enough to speak, giant spiders roaming the shadows and eating humanoids too, giant fire breathing dragons actually ruling the land... Man-eating trolls everywhere!

 

On the society...
There is actually no middle class. The hobbits are presented as such for propaganda reasons, but the Baggins, the Tuc and the Brandiwine are three of the main families of the hobbit land since ancient times, and Samwise is their serf.
The three families are actually involved in the armed regime change there after the start of the fourth age.

All of the character we met are nobles of some kind, landowners, princes, regents. A single piece of armour from one of the Baggins was valued more than all of the value of the hobbit land alltogether, to speak about the index of Gini and social uneaveness.

You cannot see traveling merchants - the land and most of all the sea are way too dangerous to travel.
And in human lands the artisans are considered inferior to both dwarven and elven ones, nor they have the industrial might of the orcs. In a word, they are an economical backwater, to be targeted by elven and dwarven exportation, like a colony. The lack of an artisan class is clear.

So what they are?
All of them simply countrymen, peasants and serfs. Minas Tirith may have no slaves, as Pentos.
But if you are not from a major family you are actually sent out of the walls, to hide yourself from the besieging orcs "in the mountains".
That is: the walls of Gondor protect you only as long as there is no need of them, then you are on your own.
And the mountains (Misty, Lone, northern, Mordor's) are the natural habitat of the orcs, not of the humans.

 

So no, I wouldn't want to live in such a dangerous, unjust, cruel world as Middle Earth, despite the internal propaganda of its rulers.

Stop reading that Russian Fanfiction https://sites.google.com/site/theblackbookofarda/. :P

 

Also the Valar are not gods, they are the equivalent of Archangels. There are other errors in your post, but it would take too long to point them all out.

[mediterraneo]

I see you are beguiled of the gandalfian conspiracy, Orphalesion, but the truth will come out sooner or later. :P

And if you want to get a nice house near the Misty Mountains, go get it.
For me, I'd get 60 years in Medina Azahara with Abderraman III, sharing wine and dance shows with the Calpih of Cordoba, with the greatest library in Europe to my side and the best medical care on the continent.

Taxes would be slightly higher for me for not being muslim, but I would also be exempt from military service, and that's good for health.

 

My second best would be being a venetian citizen in any year before 1300.

Later it gets increasingly dangerous in a turkish sense.
But the city itself - and my family in it - would be safe from pillages until... until today.
And I'd see the world! Alessandria, the Black Sea, Constatntinople! A venetian neighbourhood in every port of the mediterranean and more! The chance of travels to Persia and India, and even farther away!
And NO roman inquisition, neither!
And a true republic until the closing of the Major Counsel somewhere in the 17th century. And even then, the rule of law would stay...

 

PS: thanks for the link, Orphalesion! I didn't know this one, I had read (in spanish edition) some other russian made book about the Ring War "from the side of the orcs". I believe that the author was Kirill Yeskov, but I don't own the book anymore and I searched his name on google.
Not a very good read i must say, but I always liked the nerdy discussions about "the truth" behind Tolkien's novels.
And I wanted to share what I read, as you shared that link!

Cheers!

[redeagl]

Westeros. I could do whatever in my mind kill anyone and basiclly do everything.

[Orphalesion]

I see you are beguiled of the gandalfian conspiracy, Orphalesion, but the truth will come out sooner or later. :P

And if you want to get a nice house near the Misty Mountains, go get it.

 

Near the Misty Mountains? Nah, unless e are talking Rivendell or Lothlorien. 

 

I'd move to Ithilien post War of the Ring, a green and pleasant country with a sensible ruler and it even has Elves in it. 

 

 

And yeah, the Black Book of Arda is not very well written, it tries to sweep too much under the rug that would undermine the clumsy attempt to subvert God and Evil in Tolkiens universe. Like note how, except for Yavanna very briefly, none of the Valar who are not easily reinterpreted appear. Varda, arguably the Big Good of Arda even has her role stolen by Melkor's "wife" in this version. 

 

I haven't read that other fanfic but I assume it is of similar quality.

[Ser Lepus]

Near the Misty Mountains? Nah, unless e are talking Rivendell or Lothlorien. 
 
I'd move to Ithilien post War of the Ring, a green and pleasant country with a sensible ruler and it even has Elves in it. 
 
 
And yeah, the Black Book of Arda is not very well written, it tries to sweep too much under the rug that would undermine the clumsy attempt to subvert God and Evil in Tolkiens universe. Like note how, except for Yavanna very briefly, none of the Valar who are not easily reinterpreted appear. Varda, arguably the Big Good of Arda even has her role stolen by Melkor's "wife" in this version. 
 
I haven't read that other fanfic but I assume it is of similar quality.

 
The Last Ringbearer of Kirill Eskov isn't that bad, it's a real novel, not a fanfic. Kirill Yuryevich Eskov is a respected Russian writer, biologist and paleontologist. The book isn't exceptional, but it's a decent read.
 
Kirill is mostly disappointed by how real economic, social and political issues are brushed away in the LOTR, where everything goes peachy forever because the rightful king is back, so he comes to the conclusion that LOTR is propaganda made up by Aragorn's descendants. The Last Ringbearer's characters are spies and politicians like those of the Cold War, instead of being heroes and villains of legend.
 

For me, I'd get 60 years in Medina Azahara with Abderraman III, sharing wine and dance shows with the Calpih of Cordoba, with the greatest library in Europe to my side and the best medical care on the continent.
Taxes would be slightly higher for me for not being muslim, but I would also be exempt from military service, and that's good for health.

Medina Azahara was a royal citadel, you could live there only if you were a servant of the Caliph, and since the premise is that you would be a commoner, you would live in the lowest level, that of artisans and workmen, or the medium level, that of bureocrats and guards. You wouldn't have access to the highest level, the Caliph's own residence, where all the partying went on.
 

My second best would be being a venetian citizen in any year before 1300.

Later it gets increasingly dangerous in a turkish sense.
But the city itself - and my family in it - would be safe from pillages until... until today.
And I'd see the world! Alessandria, the Black Sea, Constatntinople! A venetian neighbourhood in every port of the mediterranean and more! The chance of travels to Persia and India, and even farther away!
And NO roman inquisition, neither!
And a true republic until the closing of the Major Counsel somewhere in the 17th century. And even then, the rule of law would stay...

Another reason to avoid Venetia after 1300 were the Black Plague outbreaks. Venetia was badly hit by several outbreaks from 1348 to 1651. But while that strain of the bubonic plague was particularly lethal, deadly epidemics have existed since Antiquity (Athens was almost wiped by one during its Classical period) and many other nasty non-epidemic diseases too.

As for travelling the world, it wouldn't be pleasant. Galleys stank so much that they were detected by smell before sight. A on a ship could see a galley from maybe 5-7 km away, or up to around 15-17 km from the top of a mast...but you could smell them before that.

[Orphalesion]

 
The Last Ringbearer of Kirill Eskov isn't that bad, it's a real novel, not a fanfic. Kirill Yuryevich Eskov is a respected Russian writer, biologist and paleontologist. The book isn't exceptional, but it's a decent read.
 
Kirill is mostly disappointed by how real economic, social and political issues are brushed away in the LOTR, where everything goes peachy forever because the rightful king is back, so he comes to the conclusion that LOTR is propaganda made up by Aragorn's descendants. The Last Ringbearer's characters are spies and politicians like those of the Cold War, instead of being heroes and villains of legend.
 

 

 

Well then in my opinion he should have created his own fantasy world to address those perceived shortcomings, like Martin did, instead of saying what the original author wrote was "propaganda". That way the book could have even become successful internationally if it is good enough.

[Caspoi]

mediterraneo@ You don't actually believe that do you? I mean I could disprove you but that would be a waste of time if you did not Think that it was true.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Middle earth as an elf?

[Ramsay Gimp]

 
The Last Ringbearer of Kirill Eskov isn't that bad, it's a real novel, not a fanfic. Kirill Yuryevich Eskov is a respected Russian writer, biologist and paleontologist. The book isn't exceptional, but it's a decent read.
 
Kirill is mostly disappointed by how real economic, social and political issues are brushed away in the LOTR, where everything goes peachy forever because the rightful king is back, so he comes to the conclusion that LOTR is propaganda made up by Aragorn's descendants. The Last Ringbearer's characters are spies and politicians like those of the Cold War, instead of being heroes and villains of legend.
 

 

Fan-fiction or "expanded universe" written out of love for the original is one thing, but using an author's creations to insult/denigrate/subvert his original work is pretty low. 

[Ser Lepus]

 

Well then in my opinion he should have created his own fantasy world to address those perceived shortcomings, like Martin did, instead of saying what the original author wrote was "propaganda". That way the book could have even become successful internationally if it is good enough.

 

 

 

Fan-fiction or "expanded universe" written out of love for the original is one thing, but using an author's creations to insult/denigrate/subvert his original work is pretty low. 

 

I don't think Kirill was insulting or denigrating Tolkien's work. His universe is clearly a completely different one, and his characters aren't the same. He's just saying that you shouldn't believe any story where a side is perfectly good and the other perfectly evil, and uses Middle Earth as a metaphore of our own world.

 

Manipulation of history is a recurring theme in his books. He also wrote a book about how Jesus was an orthodox hebrew and a political rebel against Roman occupation of Israel, but his teachings were modified by later generations.

 

And I don't think he cares about being an internationally successful as a fantasy writer, he's already an internationally respected biologist, paleontologist and writer of popular science books who has discovered several new species.

[Orphalesion]

 

 

 

I don't think Kirill was insulting or denigrating Tolkien's work. His universe is clearly a completely different one, and his characters aren't the same. He's just saying that you shouldn't believe any story where a side is perfectly good and the other perfectly evil, and uses Middle Earth as a metaphore of our own world.

 

 

Still appropriating another person's work and bending it to your own will is not cool. If he is as accomplished as you say it is indeed a shame that he did not construct his own universe. Hijacking Middle Earth just seems lazy.

Also a statement like that is not very original to begin with. He's not the first to say "History is grey" or "History is written by the winners". In fact just flipping the perspective and declaring th side of good to be a conspiracy is fairly cliche. 

Also if he pastes that statement on the War of the Ring clearly disregards the Christian roots of Middle Earth with that, including the reason why Orcs cannot be redeemed (Tolkien struggled with that concept to his death and wrote several essays with some interesting and frightening possibilities) and why Aragorm is literally born to be king and all but makes flowers grow on barren Earth.

Basically he rips the soul out of Middle Earth.

And he forgets that there are already shades of grey in the Lord of the Rings. Only people who don't read into it thinks it is a story about Pure Good vs. Pure Evil.

 

As far as I know the only reason he was able to publish his fanfic was because Russian copyright law is extreme lax. Allowing for the publication of fanfiction like that and "Beyond the Dawn".

Fanifction is not a judgment of the quality of a work, there are excellent, novel-lenght fanfics out there. It is a judgment on the originality of the work.