Tucu Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Right. The giants can drink themselves to death; the mammoths can be hired out for construction work, the unicorns can be prostituted and the direwolves can pimp for them in their casinos. That ought to cover it. :devil: The Wall is there to mark the limit of the reservation. North of the wall weirdwood trees, CoTF, giants and other creatures can live without much human interference. It was built to appease the Others. The NW men are just glorified park rangers and border patrol :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Not necessarily. If you scroll back through heresy just a little way you'll find plenty of precedent for the collective mind much closer to hand in an awful lot of GRRM's work, most notably including but far from confined to A Song for Lya. In a number of stories he explores the theme of collective minds in conflict with human individuality and there's a pretty shrewd suspicion that this theme is also being played out here. Interesting. A collective mind with Dissociative Identity Disorder would be a dangerous friend and foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Just a guess--but I'd been assuming the dragon glass might have been part of the original pact. The Children haven't given the Watch any in ages. Plus--again a guess--the Walkers weapons seem far superior to dragon glass daggers--longer for one. Maybe the Children once gave them dragon glass swords, but all we see in the text are daggers and the Walkers seem fast and agile. Plus I can't think of an incident where we've seen anyone use dragon glass on the wights. Let alone the kind of cold we see in Varamyr's prologue. Just thinking that the dragon glass helps but not much if all freezing hell breaks loose again. Seems like more of a gesture. Helpful, sort of, but not if winter ramps up again. You're right about what we've seen the Children do--just in the cave. But the cave freaks me out--perhaps I'm just squeamish, but that place seems wrong. And Bloodraven as part of a tree--that can't be good. Plus all the other greenseers in trees. Just really think something's wrong in that cave of skulls. Even Jojen seems really unhappy about the situation--am wondering what happens if he realizes this is not matching his visions. Are Leaf and Co. running the current upping of winter? Don't know yet. But something's wrong. Still guessing--but seems like magic is rising. If the rise is a "natural" phenomenon--rise and fall of magics--then they are taking advantage of the situation. If not--I don't know why now. They've been leading Bran to them via 3 eyed-crow. And BR seems in rough shape--way too old, part of a tree. My best guess? They need a new greenseer to help them do what they want. And that's Bran. Throw in the fact that he's young and eager to escape his paralyzed state--he came to them thinking he'd walk again--seems like he'd be one they could manipulate. i believe Sam tried to use it on the wighted small Paul but his ringmail or something may have turned it away but my guess is the dragon glass doesnt effect them. We also have arrow heads in the bundle Jon finds so we got long range options. And about the pact i think that kinda makes sense 100 pieces of dragonglass for the 100 kingdoms as BC has said before i believe. But why arent they handing out this dragonglass south of the wall where the pact actually took place, Instead they give it to the Nights Watch who seem to be on the front lines and could use it the most which leads me to believe its a lot less symbolic. And Dragonglass is directly related to killing the White walkers where as an Olive Weirwood branch or something would make more sense in pertaining to a peace pact of some kind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 i believe Sam tried to use it on the wighted small Paul but his ringmail or something may have turned it away but my guess is the dragon glass doesnt effect them. We also have arrow heads in the bundle Jon finds so we got long range options. And about the pact i think that kinda makes sense 100 pieces of dragonglass for the 100 kingdoms as BC has said before i believe. But why arent they handing out this dragonglass south of the wall where the pact actually took place, Instead they give it to the Nights Watch who seem to be on the front lines and could use it the most which leads me to believe its a lot less symbolic. And Dragonglass is directly related to killing the White walkers where as an Olive Weirwood branch or something would make more sense in pertaining to a peace pact of some kind Not necessarily. There are various areas where this story doesn't ring true in the way its supposed to. According to Sam the annual gift was given during the age of heroes - but was that before or after the Long Night? According to Maester Luwin's history lesson the Age of Heroes began with the Pact, way before the Long Night [supposedly]; and then where were the children who were supposedly giving this annual tribute? Were they coming south to the boundary between the realms of men and the otherlands, or were they making a pilgrimage north to the Wall, and if the latter and the big bad lay beyond why did they themselves abandon even the North to go into the otherlands? If it was that important why did the giving stop - and when? And most important of all, what was given in exchange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 It was Qhorin Halfhand who warned that the old powers are awakening and also warned that the trees have eyes again - which rather suggested he regarded the tree-huggers as a threat rather than the saviours of all mankind. As for the dragonglass we really don't know where it came from. I infer that the dragon glass is from your tree huggers since we have stories that connect them with it more than anyone else. Qhorin's warning tells me he really has no clue whats going on which is why he throws out " old powers are awakening and trees having eyes" sounds like someone who really doesnt have a explanation to why people are rising from the dead and strange beings on the shore etc. If he knew something "extra" I'm guessing Mormont Benjen Eddard and eventually Jon Snow would have also known about it, unless Qhorin is an asshole and just likes being mysterious in his answers to his Lord Commander. Thats why he wanted Jon with him so he could maybe get some of those Old powers on his side. I dont feel like his statement tell us anything about the old powers being on one side or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Not necessarily. There are various areas where this story doesn't ring true in the way its supposed to. According to Sam the annual gift was given during the age of heroes - but was that before or after the Long Night? According to Maester Luwin's history lesson the Age of Heroes began with the Pact, way before the Long Night [supposedly]; and then where were the children who were supposedly giving this annual tribute? Were they coming south to the boundary between the realms of men and the otherlands, or were they making a pilgrimage north to the Wall, and if the latter and the big bad lay beyond why did they themselves abandon even the North to go into the otherlands? If it was that important why did the giving stop - and when? And most important of all, what was given in exchange? Not necessarily what? sorry easily confused. Did they stop giving we're not sure. Jon only found it because of his Direwolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 And what did they get in exchange were literal eyes in every kingdom if they had a Godswood or whatever. I would love a plot twist with the COTF being the reason for the White walkers attacking men btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 If "the trees have eyes again" is meant to be a warning, something that would be of significance to Mormont, then why isn't this a more prominent thing in the tales of the NW, the CotF, and the Others? Why do so many tales represent the CotF and NW as allies and trading partners? Where are all of the tales giving the more sinister side of the story? Why didn't Mormont pass this knowledge on to Sam as he was dying, why couldn't Sam find this knowledge in Castle Black's library?When Mormont begins hearing tales of WWs being spotted, he's clearly taking such tales seriously, yet we don't see that this leads him to conclude that the trees have eyes again, and that the greenseers are at the root of their troubles. Were this the case, why not just say so plainly?Revisionist history that's meant to hide humanity's brutality makes sense, revisionist history that's hiding the sinister side of the CotF...makes less sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 If "the trees have eyes again" is meant to be a warning, something that would be of significance to Mormont, then why isn't this a more prominent thing in the tales of the NW, the CotF, and the Others? Why do so many tales represent the CotF and NW as allies and trading partners? Where are all of the tales giving the more sinister side of the story? Why didn't Mormont pass this knowledge on to Sam as he was dying, why couldn't Sam find this knowledge in Castle Black's library?When Mormont begins hearing tales of WWs being spotted, he's clearly taking such tales seriously, yet we don't see that this leads him to conclude that the trees have eyes again, and that the greenseers are at the root of their troubles. Were this the case, why not just say so plainly?Revisionist history that's meant to hide humanity's brutality makes sense, revisionist history that's hiding the sinister side of the CotF...makes less sense. what he said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 There are no records from the Dawn Age or the Age of heroes. Written history started with the Andal invasion thousands of year after the Long Night.Distortion by thousands of years of inacurate oral tradition, a new language, a new culture and thousands of years of skeptics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 There are no records from the Dawn Age or the Age of heroes. Written history started with the Andal invasion thousands of year after the Long Night.Distortion by thousands of years of inacurate oral tradition, a new language, a new culture and thousands of years of skeptics.The implicit assumption in characterizing "the trees have eyes again" as a warning is that, to at least some members of the Watch, knowledge of the "real enemy" has stood the test of time. Nonetheless, when Mormont is first hearing reports of WW sightings and missing rangers, he does not immediately jump to the conclusion that the trees have eyes again; indeed, after he saw what was going on at the Fist, he says nothing to Sam to indicate that he fears the return of weirnet, or the Greenseers.Most dialogue pertaining to serious future events is, by design, ambiguous, and Qhorin's statement is no different; it could be a warning, or it may be the case that Mormont needs that knowledge because reaching out to the CotF is their only hope of combating the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 The implicit assumption in characterizing "the trees have eyes again" as a warning is that, to at least some members of the Watch, knowledge of the "real enemy" has stood the test of time. Nonetheless, when Mormont is first hearing reports of WW sightings and missing rangers, he does not immediately jump to the conclusion that the trees have eyes again; indeed, after he saw what was going on at the Fist, he says nothing to Sam to indicate that he fears the return of weirnet, or the Greenseers.Most dialogue pertaining to serious future events is, by design, ambiguous, and Qhorin's statement is no different; it could be a warning, or it may be the case that Mormont needs that knowledge because reaching out to the CotF is their only hope of combating the Others. I just assumed that Qhorin was warning that strange things are happening. Jon has confirmed that things thought to be wildling legends are coming back: giants and wargs. Add to this the wights at Castle Black The wildlings seem to carve faces on trees wherever they go (well, at least they carved some on the trees near Moletown). So this could be both a warning about the wildlings forces or the Old Gods becoming active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 i believe Sam tried to use it on the wighted small Paul but his ringmail or something may have turned it away but my guess is the dragon glass doesnt effect them. We also have arrow heads in the bundle Jon finds so we got long range options. And about the pact i think that kinda makes sense 100 pieces of dragonglass for the 100 kingdoms as BC has said before i believe. But why arent they handing out this dragonglass south of the wall where the pact actually took place, Instead they give it to the Nights Watch who seem to be on the front lines and could use it the most which leads me to believe its a lot less symbolic. And Dragonglass is directly related to killing the White walkers where as an Olive Weirwood branch or something would make more sense in pertaining to a peace pact of some kind Agree on the arrowheads giving long range--but still, hard to see obsidian working against anything other than a few Others. Shoot the arrow and it's gone. Fighting with daggers against Other swords--seems dangerous. Throw in the real winter--wights, cold winds rising--can't see obsidian being more than a gesture. Why not glass handed out south of the Wall? This is a guess, but it seems like the Wall is the boundary (feel free to roll your eyes at my obviousness)--which means that's the line both sides are holding. Night's watchmen can't kill Walkers easily but can be killed really easily. So, the daggers are a kind of evening things up--as long as all behave themselves, the Children won't unleash true Winter. And the Watch can have some basic protection at the Wall from Walkers. But it's only a truce if the humans behave. They fail--splat. Here comes winter and the obsidian does nothing. So, obsidian at the Wall as both help and reminder of truce--not so much as an olive branch as a reminder of the agreement? That's my best guess at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 The implicit assumption in characterizing "the trees have eyes again" as a warning is that, to at least some members of the Watch, knowledge of the "real enemy" has stood the test of time. Nonetheless, when Mormont is first hearing reports of WW sightings and missing rangers, he does not immediately jump to the conclusion that the trees have eyes again; indeed, after he saw what was going on at the Fist, he says nothing to Sam to indicate that he fears the return of weirnet, or the Greenseers.Most dialogue pertaining to serious future events is, by design, ambiguous, and Qhorin's statement is no different; it could be a warning, or it may be the case that Mormont needs that knowledge because reaching out to the CotF is their only hope of combating the Others. Do we have any info that says Mormont has a deep knowledge of the Children and/or the causes or solutions of the Long Night? When Jon kills the wight with fire, Mormont says something like--yes, the wildlings burn their dead. We should have remembered. We should have asked why--something like that (if I've butchered that, my apologies). Seems like "burn your dead to prevent wights" would be more practical knowledge than the potential greenseers in the background. And even that meaning and significance are lost--only noticed that wildlings burn dead. So, am wondering if Quorin is dealing with info/suspicions that Mormont doesn't share. Or if even Quorin fully understands what it could mean. A warning, yes, but one whose full meaning has been lost. Does even Old Nan talk about the source of the Long Night? Just can't see how Mormont is shown as knowing much about the Children at all--very happy to be corrected. As for reaching out to the Children--the only example we have on page is Bran--very limited sample, but it's all we have. Leaf talks about long dwindling, and lots of other things. Bran's given advice re: visions--lots of talk so far and not a peep that I can remember about how Leaf and Co. intend to help humans. Seems like saving the humans is either a covert op or not on the agenda--at least right now. Lots of pages to go yet, so it could change. But it hasn't come up yet, far as I can remember. Very happy to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 So, am wondering if Quorin is dealing with info/suspicions that Mormont doesn't share. Or if even Quorin fully understands what it could mean. A warning, yes, but one whose full meaning has been lost. Does even Old Nan talk about the source of the Long Night? Just can't see how Mormont is shown as knowing much about the Children at all--very happy to be corrected. This is my entire point--Mormont doesn't seem to display any knowledge that would suggest that he believes the CotF/Greenseers are at the roots of what's happening with the Others, which means "the trees have eyes again" is useless as a warning; my entire premise is that Qhorin wasn't issuing it as a warning, he's simply relaying information about everything that's beginning to stir north of the Wall - good, neutral, or bad - and that that line is not evidence of a link between the CotF and the Others, or even that "the trees have eyes again" is the sort of information that Mormont would perceive as a warning, or sinister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Dawg Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Agree on the arrowheads giving long range--but still, hard to see obsidian working against anything other than a few Others. Shoot the arrow and it's gone. Fighting with daggers against Other swords--seems dangerous. Throw in the real winter--wights, cold winds rising--can't see obsidian being more than a gesture.There were also spearheads. Spears would be more effective than daggers, not much but more. There also don't seem to be many others, so maybe don't really need a ton of obsidian weapons. A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 This is my entire point--Mormont doesn't seem to display any knowledge that would suggest that he believes the CotF/Greenseers are at the roots of what's happening with the Others, which means "the trees have eyes again" is useless as a warning; my entire premise is that Qhorin wasn't issuing it as a warning, he's simply relaying information about everything that's beginning to stir north of the Wall - good, neutral, or bad - and that that line is not evidence of a link between the CotF and the Others, or even that "the trees have eyes again" is the sort of information that Mormont would perceive as a warning, or sinister. Ima just tell you what i think and you can write it for me. Youre much more eloquent than i am with those words of yours. There were also spearheads. Spears would be more effective than daggers, not much but more. There also don't seem to be many others, so maybe don't really need a ton of obsidian weapons. excellent point and it should be noted that obsidian is way to fragile to make and type of lengthy blade with that'll be good for more then one use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Ima just tell you what i think and you can write it for me. Youre much more eloquent than i am with those words of yours. excellent point and it should be noted that obsidian is way to fragile to make and type of lengthy blade with that'll be good for more then one use They could make wooden swords with obsidian blades like the Aztecs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The could make wooden swords with obsidian blades like the Aztecs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl) sure why not they only need small pieces to do that with, i'm hoping for throwing stars myself. The bigger question is why are they giving the dragonglass. I know "GRRM doesnt do obvious" but the obvious answer is to fight off the WW's. I know 100 pieces isnt a lot but if they did that every year and say you had 10 years between winters u got yourself a 1000 pieces right there, and if they saved it up from the last Long Night well they'd have a shit load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Dawg Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 They could make wooden swords with obsidian blades like the Aztecs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl) I like this idea! sure why not they only need small pieces to do that with, i'm hoping for throwing stars myself. The bigger question is why are they giving the dragonglass. I know "GRRM doesnt do obvious" but the obvious answer is to fight off the WW's. I know 100 pieces isnt a lot but if they did that every year and say you had 10 years between winters u got yourself a 1000 pieces right there, and if they saved it up from the last Long Night well they'd have a shit load. Ha throwing stars would be cool, but man obsidian is some sharp ass stuff, better wear some thick gloves. Maybe the NW will discover a huge store of it in the Nightfort or some of the other castles when they are fixing it up for Stannis? Mormont does say the have forgotten too much, maybe that it one of the things they have forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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