Heresy 173

[Sly Wren]

 

Great point about the parallels.  To continue, Bloodraven's parallel fanaticism could be his determination to eliminate all Blackfyres, even killing Aenys Blackfyre after a safe conduct had been issued.

Good point. Shows his single-mindedness to the point of excess. I'm also wondering if his fanaticism has turned focus onto his current project--getting lost in the fabulousness of being a greenseer--the talk about how rare it is. Not sure if he's telling Bran the truth, but he seems caught up in the "grandeur" of it all--reminds me a bit of the way Mel talks about the Lord of Light and prophecies and all of that. Am assuming we're going to hear more of BR's worldview re: what he's doing. Don't know if we'll get a POV like Mel's, but would not be surprised to find out his fanaticism parallels Mel's. Would take some kind of fanaticism to become one with a tree. Trying out the sight is one thing. What BR has become--whole other level. Like Mel's transformation.

[Black Crow]

Have been wondering that myself. And, to your other points, am wondering if the original Pact was the one all the Children (or most of the Children) were part of. Post Hammer of the Waters and the sacrifices attendant to it, everyone sits down and makes a Pact...

 

The suggestion a rogue faction is involved has been a popular one over the years we've discussed this, but quite honestly the problem with that interpretation is that we've no suggestion that there are any good guys out there that the putative "rogue faction" might be in opposition to. All we have is Leaf's lot sitting in the darkness amongst the bones.

[Black Crow]

Good point. Shows his single-mindedness to the point of excess. I'm also wondering if his fanaticism has turned focus onto his current project--getting lost in the fabulousness of being a greenseer--the talk about how rare it is. Not sure if he's telling Bran the truth, but he seems caught up in the "grandeur" of it all--reminds me a bit of the way Mel talks about the Lord of Light and prophecies and all of that. Am assuming we're going to hear more of BR's worldview re: what he's doing. Don't know if we'll get a POV like Mel's, but would not be surprised to find out his fanaticism parallels Mel's. Would take some kind of fanaticism to become one with a tree. Trying out the sight is one thing. What BR has become--whole other level. Like Mel's transformation.

 

And again Kurtz - and how long before he utters the words?

[Sly Wren]

This always caught my eyes and i think its a very big clue.Its in Cat's first chapter.

 

Ned saw the dread on her face."Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

 

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." she glanced behind her at the heart tree,the pale bark and red eyes,watching listening,thinking its long slow thoughts.

 

His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories.The Others are as dead as the children of the forest<snip> AGOT,Cat Pg 25.

 

Cat' s reacton coupled with Qhorin's warning indicates that to them the Weirwood trees particularly the ones with faces are something to be feared.Even more odd is on seeing her glancing at the Heart tree Ned doesn't reassure her about the trees not really looking or spying .He reassures her about the Others.

 

Not just Cat and Qhorin.

 

In expressing his unhappiness at what's going on beyond the Wall, Mormont speaks of the walkers etc. and what sounds like those "darker things" in his dreams

Interesting that Ned doesn't seem to see the trees and their watching as a potential threat while Quorin is unsettled by a change--though he does't delineate why. Suggests Ned disconnects the long dead Children and long dead Others from the trees and their seeing. Really seems like the knowledge of what BR and Leaf and Co. are doing in that cave has either been lost south of the Wall or never got out.

 

Mormont and Quorin know about the living Others (or at least reports of them)--not sure yet if they are connecting the Others and the Children to the seeing trees. But they at least see the seeing trees as unsettling.

 

Makes me think that the idea of the Long Night being brought about by a rogue group of Children might explain the loss of knowledge--if the "project" was only a small group, knowledge of what happened might be easier to lose.

 

True, but if the Hundred Kingdoms is a matter of usage then the 100 pieces of dragonglas may be likewise. After all we're hardly going to be in this position.

 

Knock on gate.

 

Sentinel: "Who's there?"

 

Voice from without: "Us"

 

Sentinel: "Who's us?"

 

Voice: "Us, open up, we haven't got all day and its freezing out here."

 

Sentinel: "What do you want?"

 

Voice: "Nuffinck... we've got your dragonglass for you."

 

Sentinel: Har, why didn't you say so. How much have you got?"

 

Singer [for it is he]: Depends. How many kingdoms have you got?"

 

Sentinel: "Har [again]... er... well Lyonnesse got swallered up by the sea the other week, and Heligoland got taken over by Old King Coel, and then there was Scotland, but you don't wanner know about Scotland, and then there was that Prince Valiant, word is he's set up for King, so that's a new one..."

 

Singer: "Look will we just stick with the usual 100 pieces?"

 

Sentinel: "Yeah, probably for the best... see you again next year, same time."

Ha! Confirms my pet theory that parts of the novels would make a good absurdist play. Still think the ToJ scene works as Stoppard--Sirs Hightower, Whent, and Dayne are Dead at the Tower. No one knows or says exactly what they are doing or why--and then they die.

[wolfmaid7]

 

Interesting that Ned doesn't seem to see the trees and their watching as a potential threat while Quorin is unsettled by a change--though he does't delineate why. Suggests Ned disconnects the long dead Children and long dead Others from the trees and their seeing. Really seems like the knowledge of what BR and Leaf and Co. are doing in that cave has either been lost south of the Wall or never got out.

 

Mormont and Quorin know about the living Others (or at least reports of them)--not sure yet if they are connecting the Others and the Children to the seeing trees. But they at least see the seeing trees as unsettling.

 

Makes me think that the idea of the Long Night being brought about by a rogue group of Children might explain the loss of knowledge--if the "project" was only a small group, knowledge of what happened might be easier to lose.

 

Ha! Confirms my pet theory that parts of the novels would make a good absurdist play. Still think the ToJ scene works as Stoppard--Sirs Hightower, Whent, and Dayne are Dead at the Tower. No one knows or says exactly what they are doing or why--and then they die.

Then to me given Cat's concern was directed at the Heart tree he should have focused on that.For is that what was feared of the trees...that they were spying.He shouldn't have actually spoken of the Others. Cat after Ned says the Others are long dead replies until now no living man had sen a Direwolf either south of the Wall.

 

So to be this is a very subtle and obscure clue that there is a connection between the Others and the Heart trees

[Black Crow]

 

Interesting that Ned doesn't seem to see the trees and their watching as a potential threat while Quorin is unsettled by a change--though he does't delineate why. Suggests Ned disconnects the long dead Children and long dead Others from the trees and their seeing. Really seems like the knowledge of what BR and Leaf and Co. are doing in that cave has either been lost south of the Wall or never got out.

 

Something we've certainly discussed before is Lord Eddard's disconnection from his heritage. He was told the old stories by Old Nan and told them himself to his own children, but they were just bed-time stories. As a youth he was brought up by the Blessed St.Jon of Arryn along with Bob Baratheon, neither of whom would have believed in grumkins and snarks as anything more than bedtime bogeymen; and anything in the way of family secrets may have passed him by since he wasn't the heir to Winterfell until father, morther and elder brother were all dead.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

This always caught my eyes and i think its a very big clue.Its in Cat's first chapter.

 

Ned saw the dread on her face."Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

 

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." she glanced behind her at the heart tree,the pale bark and red eyes,watching listening,thinking its long slow thoughts.

 

His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories.The Others are as dead as the children of the forest<snip> AGOT,Cat Pg 25.

 

Cat' s reacton coupled with Qhorin's warning indicates that to them the Weirwood trees particularly the ones with faces are something to be feared.Even more odd is on seeing her glancing at the Heart tree Ned doesn't reassure her about the trees not really looking or spying .He reassures her about the Others.

A little off subject but the fact Eddard says the Others are as dead as the COTF can we then conclude that when we say "others" it doesnt refer to just the old powers like direwolves and COTF but specifically WW's 

[Summer Is Coming!]

 

Something we've certainly discussed before is Lord Eddard's disconnection from his heritage. He was told the old stories by Old Nan and told them himself to his own children, but they were just bed-time stories. As a youth he was brought up by the Blessed St.Jon of Arryn along with Bob Baratheon, neither of whom would have believed in grumkins and snarks as anything more than bedtime bogeymen; and anything in the way of family secrets may have passed him by since he wasn't the heir to Winterfell until father, morther and elder brother were all dead.

 

Would we consider Benjen Stark, with the brief time he is present, more representative of the historical Starks then?

[Black Crow]

 

Would we consider Benjen Stark, with the brief time he is present, more representative of the historical Starks then?

 

Probably, because he's been beyond the Wall and knows things like what was going down at Craster's place.

[Black Crow]

A little off subject but the fact Eddard says the Others are as dead as the COTF can we then conclude that when we say "others" it doesnt refer to just the old powers like direwolves and COTF but specifically WW's 

 

Not necessarily. The Germans during the First World War provide a good example. Those opposing them were wont to refer to them as Prussians if they were reckoned aggressive, or as Saxons or Bavarians if they were not, but they were all Germans. We do see the terms white walkers and others used interchangeably, most notably when Old Nan starts telling the story of the last hero and we learn for the first time why Mormont was getting so exercised by the walkers near Eastwatch. But the point is that its the walkers who are doing the fighting and leading the armies of the slain so its natural enough for those running away from them to refer to them as the Others, cos they're the ones they see.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

 

Not necessarily. The Germans during the First World War provide a good example. Those opposing them were wont to refer to them as Prussians if they were reckoned aggressive, or as Saxons or Bavarians if they were not, but they were all Germans. We do see the terms white walkers and others used interchangeably, most notably when Old Nan starts telling the story of the last hero and we learn for the first time why Mormont was getting so exercised by the walkers near Eastwatch. But the point is that its the walkers who are doing the fighting and leading the armies of the slain so its natural enough for those running away from them to refer to them as the Others, cos they're the ones they see.

Well atleast Ned thinks the two are separate and ima side with him on this atleast

[Black Crow]

Yeah... but what does he know. The point about those on and above the Wall referring to Craster's boys as the walkers rather than as the Others suggests that they are making a distinction between the different manifestations of the latter.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Yeah... but what does he know. 

Touche ser touche

[Matthew.]

 

True, but if the Hundred Kingdoms is a matter of usage then the 100 pieces of dragonglas may be likewise. After all we're hardly going to be in this position.

 

If the concept is that it was 100 pieces of dragonglass for 100 kingdoms as a symbolic gesture, the symbolism does not exist if the men of that era do not consider themselves to be of the "Hundred Kingdoms." With the information we have, we cannot reasonably determine whether or not "Hundred Kingdoms" was a term in use at the time of a (proposed) Pact, or is a term that was coined much later, either in the oral tradition or by scholars. The suggestion of the hundred kingdoms of the FM appears only once in the main series, and even then not as a proper noun.

Maybe it was meant to be a symbolic gesture of peace/reassurance in a scenario where the CotF themselves are responsible for sending the WWs, but it fits just as well with the CotF and the NW being allies against a common foe, and 100 being a nice round number with no deeper significance.

[wolfmaid7]

If the concept is that it was 100 pieces of dragonglass for 100 kingdoms as a symbolic gesture, the symbolism does not exist if the men of that era do not consider themselves to be of the "Hundred Kingdoms." With the information we have, we cannot reasonably determine whether or not "Hundred Kingdoms" was a term in use at the time of a (proposed) Pact, or is a term that was coined much later, either in the oral tradition or by scholars. The suggestion of the hundred kingdoms of the FM appears only once in the main series, and even then not as a proper noun.

Maybe it was meant to be a symbolic gesture of peace/reassurance in a scenario where the CotF themselves are responsible for sending the WWs, but it fits just as well with the CotF and the NW being allies against a common foe, and 100 being a nice round number with no deeper significance.

Or taken in totality it could very well been Tribute.Not Tribute the gift out of the goodness of our heart,but Tribute so we won't start some s**t .

[Reposado]

If the concept is that it was 100 pieces of dragonglass for 100 kingdoms as a symbolic gesture, the symbolism does not exist if the men of that era do not consider themselves to be of the "Hundred Kingdoms." With the information we have, we cannot reasonably determine whether or not "Hundred Kingdoms" was a term in use at the time of a (proposed) Pact, or is a term that was coined much later, either in the oral tradition or by scholars. The suggestion of the hundred kingdoms of the FM appears only once in the main series, and even then not as a proper noun.

Maybe it was meant to be a symbolic gesture of peace/reassurance in a scenario where the CotF themselves are responsible for sending the WWs, but it fits just as well with the CotF and the NW being allies against a common foe, and 100 being a nice round number with no deeper significance.

 

 

maybe i missed the post but i can't imagine why the number would correlate to the amount of kingdoms. the obsidian is going to stay at the wall, that is the only it would be valuable

[Sly Wren]

 

The suggestion a rogue faction is involved has been a popular one over the years we've discussed this, but quite honestly the problem with that interpretation is that we've no suggestion that there are any good guys out there that the putative "rogue faction" might be in opposition to. All we have is Leaf's lot sitting in the darkness amongst the bones.

Yeah--assumed the idea was an old one. But am wondering if it might just be a simple as the Children not being a unified culture as the World Book seems to present them--World Book reminds me of 18th and 19th and even early 20th century European portrayals of "the African temperament" or "the Indian nature." Totalizing and simplifying.

 

Maybe the Children are as diverse in opinions and cultures as the humans. Some tribes like the Pact. Some tribes like Long Winters as an option. Some like Warg Kings---no central or rogue factions. Just tribes.

 

 

And again Kurtz - and how long before he utters the words?

Yup. And Kubla Khan--wonder if he's heard the ancestral voices prophesying war.

 

But with "the horror"--given the parallels with Bloodraven, wondering if Mel will have a "horror" moment. . . and if it could affect the outcome of all this . . . She seems to be somewhat set-up for a potential epiphany. Unless she doubles down on the fanaticism.

[Sly Wren]

Then to me given Cat's concern was directed at the Heart tree he should have focused on that.For is that what was feared of the trees...that they were spying.He shouldn't have actually spoken of the Others. Cat after Ned says the Others are long dead replies until now no living man had sen a Direwolf either south of the Wall.

 

So to be this is a very subtle and obscure clue that there is a connection between the Others and the Heart trees

Think it could be a clue, too. Especially in combo with Quorin's statements. But Ned prays to the trees sincerely (if Bran's vision is any indication) even though he thinks/says the Children are long dead. So, he doesn't seem to think the trees' efficacy in hearing prayers or transporting his wishes to the old gods or whatever the trees are doing--their efficacy is not dependent on the Children's being alive. Ned doesn't think of the Children and the trees in a way that matches what Bran sees in the cave of skulls. That idea seems to have been lost--or discarded.

 

Am assuming when Quorin says the trees have eyes again, he's meaning something about the trees has changed. Not sure what he knows or doesn't about the connection. But the benevolent listen-to-my-prayers role has changed in his mind--I think. Ned seems to think the idea of the trees' being scary is silly--any scary thing is dead. Maybe that betrays his traces of knowledge that they once were scary, but he clearly still thinks they have power without the Children or the Others. Fear of the trees seems as pointless as fear of the long dead Children or Others--to Ned.

[wolfmaid7]

Think it could be a clue, too. Especially in combo with Quorin's statements. But Ned prays to the trees sincerely (if Bran's vision is any indication) even though he thinks/says the Children are long dead. So, he doesn't seem to think the trees' efficacy in hearing prayers or transporting his wishes to the old gods or whatever the trees are doing--their efficacy is not dependent on the Children's being alive. Ned doesn't think of the Children and the trees in a way that matches what Bran sees in the cave of skulls. That idea seems to have been lost--or discarded.

 

Am assuming when Quorin says the trees have eyes again, he's meaning something about the trees has changed. Not sure what he knows or doesn't about the connection. But the benevolent listen-to-my-prayers role has changed in his mind--I think. Ned seems to think the idea of the trees' being scary is silly--any scary thing is dead. Maybe that betrays his traces of knowledge that they once were scary, but he clearly still thinks they have power without the Children or the Others. Fear of the trees seems as pointless as fear of the long dead Children or Others--to Ned.

Ahh you mis my point this has nothing to do with the Children and more to do with Cat's reaction and Ned's response to said reaction.A clue i think my GRRM also. Cat like Qhorin expresses a cultural fear of the Weirwood trees.Again lets look at the Halfhand's statement. "Tell Mormont the trees have eyes again." it is a warning the last time the trees had eyes the belief among the FM was that the trees were spying on them.

 

Qhorin is only repeating what Jon told him which was he saw a weirwood tree with his brother's face.

 

If Cat's fear was directed at the trees then logically as i said before he should have reassured her when it came to the Weirwood trees being just that. Instead he mentions the Others.This i think is a clue to us that the Others and the trees are connected.

[Sly Wren]

Ahh you mis my point this has nothing to do with the Children and more to do with Cat's reaction and Ned's response to said reaction.A clue i think my GRRM also. Cat like Qhorin expresses a cultural fear of the Weirwood trees.Again lets look at the Halfhand's statement. "Tell Mormont the trees have eyes again." it is a warning the last time the trees had eyes the belief among the FM was that the trees were spying on them.

 

Qhorin is only repeating what Jon told him which was he saw a weirwood tree with his brother's face.

 

If Cat's fear was directed at the trees then logically as i said before he should have reassured her when it came to the Weirwood trees being just that. Instead he mentions the Others.This i think is a clue to us that the Others and the trees are connected.

Ha! Always good to find out I'm an idiot. :dunce:

 

Agree on Quorin. And agree Martin could be giving readers a hint via Cat's looking at the tree and then Ned's response. But Ned dismisses her fears (kindly and gently) about the things beyond the Wall or the tree as Old Nan's stories. He doesn't believe--so it also seems like Martin is laying down a hint about the trees and the Others AND undermining that hint at the same time. The Northerner doesn't believe the stories while the Southerner does. Only when we get north of the Wall does Martin validate the hint--Cat's fear was justified (if unknowingly) and Ned's the one missing key info.

 

Unless I've misread you yet again--then just mock me mercilessly. ETA: I'm on day 6 of a migraine, so my reading comprehension is bound to be off.