Shagwell Snow Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Just felt like it was Qhorin's way of saying that this is no longer just a run o the mill Human on Human conflict anymore based on what he'd seen and heard.The presence of 'the old powers' or magic is a significant game changer for ALL parties and he knows that. He also sees some significance in having a son of winterfell ,with and a warg to boot,come with him on his recce.This clearly shows that Qhorin doesn't see the old powers as 100% man's enemy,more like a very dangerous force that can be harnessed by all parties. The presence of these powers has taken the Nightwatch's struggle and purpose to a whole New level,or more like it's original Purpose and he knows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Old Nan is quite specific about this: “Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest" The phrase "the hundred kingdoms of those times" sounds very much like a synonym for the realms of men just as "the seven kingdoms" is at present. As to kingdoms that may have fallen; allowing for the hundred kingdoms being thereabouts rather than literal [at the last count the Thousand Islands actually amounted to 1864], that's why some of us think that the gift may actually date back to the Pact. After all up until it was agreed the tree-huggers were using that very same dragonglass to slay humans. Of those TimeS Meaning the 100 kingdoms did not all exist at the same time... --- & there are other quotes that say that the 100 petty petty kingdoms rose & fell over the age of heroes... Again, they did not all exist at one Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Ghost Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Of those TimeS Meaning the kingdoms did not all exist at the same time... Yes the thread continues! Even after the update it has been dead here, maybe everyone is at another location at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Nevertheless as to Middle Hero's point, 100 pieces is still very much a symbolic gift rather than a gun-running operation. Readers should know that this is pure speculation... Speculation brought about because these dragonglass gifts are inconvenient to your pet theory that the CotF are behind the Others... The need for wards on the CotF cave is another inconvenience to this theory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reposado Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Of those TimeS Meaning the kingdoms did not all exist at the same time... --- & there are other quotes that say that the 100 petty petty kingdoms rose & fell over the age of heroes... Again, they did on all exist at one Time... yes. and it's also one of those numbers that aren't to be taken literally. 100 basically means "a lot" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 yes. and it's also one of those numbers that aren't to be taken literally. 100 basically means "a lot" Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMiddleHero Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Readers should know that this is pure speculation... Speculation brought about because these dragonglass gifts are inconvenient to your pet theory that the CotF are behind the Others... The need for wards on the CotF cave is another inconvenience to this theory... The wards on the cave cast more suspicion on them in my eyes. In HoD, Kurtz ordered an ambush on Marlowe's party, our friends in the cave may have done the same. Now they have Bran and party in the nice comfy warded caves, with pretty much no way for them to leave in the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Readers should know that this is pure speculation... Speculation brought about because these dragonglass gifts are inconvenient to your pet theory that the CotF are behind the Others... Granted, we don't know exactly why the Children gave the obsidian. But there is on page evidence to strongly suggest obsidian would not be useful against the Long Night. A few walkers, maybe. But we've no evidence they attack like a traditional army. Nan's tales say the cold comes first; Varamyr's prologue confirms that the cold mist can kill on its own. Wights rise and are not yet seen as affected by obsidian. And in Nan's tales, only after the cold do the walkers come riding into the realms of men. Just really think there's no evidence that the Children's" gift" would help at all if/when Long Night came again. Only helps with random walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Is Coming! Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yeah--sorry--I agree that they don't seem to want peace this time around. The first time--a pact is my best guess. This time? At least the group Bran's dealing with--I suspect they want their land back. Which ain't gonna be peaceful. I'm still not sold on the idea that the current uprising of Others and wights is lead by the CotF. Perhaps the first one, but whatever is happening now, it just seems like overkill that won't pay off in the long term for the CotF. The fact that Bran counts a little over three score CotF in the cave of skulls, combined with their low fertility and the CotF having to resort to humans for their two most recent greenseers... I think all of those things bode ill for their longevity as a species. That possibly being the case, what do they have to gain by unleashing an extinction-level event, something that's not just going to kill humans, but kill nearly everything on the surface? Indeed, if they've already had to resort to humans to acquire new greenseers, what the heck are they gonna do if they actually succeed in clearing humans from Westeros? Who will commune with weirnet? Whose blood will feed the trees? It also seems rather unfortunate that the Wildlings are (for the moment) bearing the brunt of the rise of the Others, since it's the north of the Wall where the deep forests have seemingly been kept in tact, and the Old Gods kept sacred. I also don't think it exactly fits that this is the first time since the original Long Night where magic has been strong enough to unleash the WWs and wights. For a comparison, we so no evidence of magic waxing and waning in Valyria--Valyrian magic was consistently strong until the Doom. And, even then, fire magic only took a brief hiatus, not an 8,000 year hiatus, as was seen with the LN. Part of the my issue with the Children either controlling or being unable to control the current rising of the Others and cold winds is whether the weirnet allows knowledge of the future. From Bran's experience, it seemed to only be the past and possibly present. There are some slight suggestions that Bloodraven has foreknowledge at some point, but that could just have been his spies or another type of magic. It's possible that the Children could not foresee the consequences of the original Long Night and Others and that now it is out of control. Conversely, they may be able to see the Others rising again and pay token lip service to a Pact while waiting. They may have seen something like the aftermath of the Fist thousands of years ago and just been waiting for it to happen. Without any way to measure the time needed for the Others to regather and initiate a new movement, they may not have realized how long it would take and how their own species would be at the brink of extinction. Also, if there was a Pact between Children and First Men, could there have been a second Pact between Children and Others at the end of the Long Night, one brokered by the Last Hero or Night's King perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Is Coming! Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 In my opinion the darkest thing a bout the COTF is going to be their use of blood sacrifce/ magic, Bran will be shocked and disgusted but be convinced by Jojen that its for the best all the while eating a small part of him in that paste lol Indeed, if they've already had to resort to humans to acquire new greenseers, what the heck are they gonna do if they actually succeed in clearing humans from Westeros? Who will commune with weirnet? Whose blood will feed the trees? Reading posts referring to the old blood sacrifices that seem linked to the Old Gods' magic and the weirwoods, I wonder if there is a parallel to the idea that the Night's King was "sacrificing" to the Others. In our modern times there are ideas of abstract sacrifices, but within the narrative of ASOIAF sacrifice seems to refer to: people sacrificed before a weirwood with blood being used by the weirwood, people being sacrificed to R'hllor by being burned, the Prince of Pentos being sacrificed if it's a bad year, and this mention of the Night's King sacrificing to Others. I didn't have time to check if Craster's sons are considered an explicit "sacrifice". Were the First Men still sacrificing to weirwoods when the Night's King's sacrifices were discovered? What would the implications of the different but contemporaneous sacrifices be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Part of the my issue with the Children either controlling or being unable to control the current rising of the Others and cold winds is whether the weirnet allows knowledge of the future. From Bran's experience, it seemed to only be the past and possibly present. There are some slight suggestions that Bloodraven has foreknowledge at some point, but that could just have been his spies or another type of magic. It's possible that the Children could not foresee the consequences of the original Long Night and Others and that now it is out of control. Conversely, they may be able to see the Others rising again and pay token lip service to a Pact while waiting. They may have seen something like the aftermath of the Fist thousands of years ago and just been waiting for it to happen. Without any way to measure the time needed for the Others to regather and initiate a new movement, they may not have realized how long it would take and how their own species would be at the brink of extinction. Also, if there was a Pact between Children and First Men, could there have been a second Pact between Children and Others at the end of the Long Night, one brokered by the Last Hero or Night's King perhaps? Have been wondering that myself. And, to your other points, am wondering if the original Pact was the one all the Children (or most of the Children) were part of. Post Hammer of the Waters and the sacrifices attendant to it, everyone sits down and makes a Pact. But the World Book at least hints that the Children weren't a unified entity--a tribe of Children allied with the Warg King. Had to be put down by the Starks. So, what if a tribe of Children weren't happy with the Pact? Cooked up the first Long Night? The short-sightedness, the nuclear option--could partly be tied to a group going rogue (in the least Sarah Palin sense possible). Such a group might be less likely to be careful of consequences. Or more fanatical (like Mel). And, given that Leaf is not mentioning helping humans at all so far--only the problems of the Children dwindling--doesn't seem like she and her buddies are moving in any direction to help people. A small enclave in a cave with an extra-powerful greenseer--am wondering if we could be seeing a replay of the Long Night. Maybe. Just really think the Others are worked magic. A spell holds them together. They seem to be a perversion of the basic life process--something possibly done with Craster's babies or maybe the babies' life force. Like Mel's shadow babies are a perversion of a natural life process--just earlier in the process than the Others. But both produce cold and death. Like even the stone-men--the disease is spread by a cold mist (in theory)? And by touch? Mostly strikes children and perverts/transforms life into something demonic-ish. So, if Mel has gone off the normal Red Lord plan and is making shadow babies, maybe some of the Children went off the Pact and cooked up Winter and the Others. Just a guess--but really think the Long Night is not random or natural magic. And the Others are held together by a spell--a spell someone or something had to cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I just wanted to make Heretic's aware of this.Please read full post. This means that anything done (posts, member registrations, etc) on the IPB 3 site from now and until we switch again will be lost. There's simply no way that we can preserve that content when the time comes to have the upgrade go live again. It's not an ideal situation, but this is a necessary upgrade and a step we have to take now as opposed to during any more traffic-heavy periods. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133189-rollback-and-future-upgrade/#entry7200476 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 From the WB, on the hundred kingdoms: _____ "For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact, for one of those "kingdoms" was ruled by a princess rather than a king (Dorne), and Aegon Targaryen's own "kingdom" of Dragonstone was never included in the count. Nonetheless, the term endures. Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually divided into a hundred independent states, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision." ______ As stated upthread, it seems likely that the "hundred kingdoms" is how the Westeros of the Age of Heroes has subsequently come to be described, due to the rise and fall of numerous petty kingdoms over hundreds, or even thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Is Coming! Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Just really think the Others are worked magic. A spell holds them together. They seem to be a perversion of the basic life process--something possibly done with Craster's babies or maybe the babies' life force. Like Mel's shadow babies are a perversion of a natural life process--just earlier in the process than the Others. But both produce cold and death. Like even the stone-men--the disease is spread by a cold mist (in theory)? And by touch? Mostly strikes children and perverts/transforms life into something demonic-ish. So, if Mel has gone off the normal Red Lord plan and is making shadow babies, maybe some of the Children went off the Pact and cooked up Winter and the Others. Just a guess--but really think the Long Night is not random or natural magic. And the Others are held together by a spell--a spell someone or something had to cast. I agree that the Others seem more and more like an example of living things creating with magic rather than living things existing on their own by magic. It's interesting that Melisandre's shadow babies are creatures of darkness, the opposite of the Lord of Light. With the Children and their ability to have greenseers and Old Gods who (on a normal human time scale) never die this could be paralleled by the Others being creatures who are never born. I remember reading about this on Heresy in past forums, and we do have an example of that with the shadow babies as an antithesis towards the magic used in their creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Is Coming! Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The short-sightedness, the nuclear option--could partly be tied to a group going rogue (in the least Sarah Palin sense possible). Such a group might be less likely to be careful of consequences. Or more fanatical (like Mel). And, given that Leaf is not mentioning helping humans at all so far--only the problems of the Children dwindling--doesn't seem like she and her buddies are moving in any direction to help people. A small enclave in a cave with an extra-powerful greenseer--am wondering if we could be seeing a replay of the Long Night. Maybe. So, if Mel has gone off the normal Red Lord plan and is making shadow babies, maybe some of the Children went off the Pact and cooked up Winter and the Others. Just a guess--but really think the Long Night is not random or natural magic. And the Others are held together by a spell--a spell someone or something had to cast. If Melisandre is the Red Lady does that make Leaf the Green Lady with the greenseers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If Melisandre is the Red Lady does that make Leaf the Green Lady with the greenseers? If there's a parallel, I'd say it's more likely to be between Mel and Bloodraven. Both have gone through magical transformations. Both have things that make them seem barely human--Mel's black blood, BR=tree. Red eyes. BR talks of once being called Brynden; Mel thinks about being Melony. Both seem to have a history of seeking out magics. Mel is a fanatic for a specific god. Can't think of a parallel for BR off the top of my head for fanaticism--happy to be corrected. But his pursuit of magics made him feared--same with Mel. Haven't seen BR birth an Other yet in one way or another. Hope it's not a direct parallel to Mel--not sure I'd want to read that. But if someone's casting spells to build Others, at present my money's on the creepy Children and BR in that cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Is Coming! Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If there's a parallel, I'd say it's more likely to be between Mel and Bloodraven. Both have gone through magical transformations. Both have things that make them seem barely human--Mel's black blood, BR=tree. Red eyes. BR talks of once being called Brynden; Mel thinks about being Melony. Both seem to have a history of seeking out magics. Mel is a fanatic for a specific god. Can't think of a parallel for BR off the top of my head for fanaticism--happy to be corrected. But his pursuit of magics made him feared--same with Mel. Haven't seen BR birth an Other yet in one way or another. Hope it's not a direct parallel to Mel--not sure I'd want to read that. But if someone's casting spells to build Others, at present my money's on the creepy Children and BR in that cave. Great point about the parallels. To continue, Bloodraven's parallel fanaticism could be his determination to eliminate all Blackfyres, even killing Aenys Blackfyre after a safe conduct had been issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 This always caught my eyes and i think its a very big clue.Its in Cat's first chapter. Ned saw the dread on her face."Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear." "There are darker things beyond the Wall." she glanced behind her at the heart tree,the pale bark and red eyes,watching listening,thinking its long slow thoughts. His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories.The Others are as dead as the children of the forest<snip> AGOT,Cat Pg 25. Cat' s reacton coupled with Qhorin's warning indicates that to them the Weirwood trees particularly the ones with faces are something to be feared.Even more odd is on seeing her glancing at the Heart tree Ned doesn't reassure her about the trees not really looking or spying .He reassures her about the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 This always caught my eyes and i think its a very big clue.Its in Cat's first chapter. Ned saw the dread on her face."Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear." "There are darker things beyond the Wall." she glanced behind her at the heart tree,the pale bark and red eyes,watching listening,thinking its long slow thoughts. His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories.The Others are as dead as the children of the forest<snip> AGOT,Cat Pg 25. Cat' s reacton coupled with Qhorin's warning indicates that to them the Weirwood trees particularly the ones with faces are something to be feared.Even more odd is on seeing her glancing at the Heart tree Ned doesn't reassure her about the trees not really looking or spying .He reassures her about the Others. Not just Cat and Qhorin. In expressing his unhappiness at what's going on beyond the Wall, Mormont speaks of the walkers etc. and what sounds like those "darker things" in his dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 From the WB, on the hundred kingdoms: _____ "For centuries it has been the custom to speak of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This familiar usage derives from the seven great kingdoms that held sway over most of Westeros below the Wall during years immediately preceding Aegon's Conquest. Yet even then, the term was far from exact, for one of those "kingdoms" was ruled by a princess rather than a king (Dorne), and Aegon Targaryen's own "kingdom" of Dragonstone was never included in the count. Nonetheless, the term endures. Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually divided into a hundred independent states, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision." ______ As stated upthread, it seems likely that the "hundred kingdoms" is how the Westeros of the Age of Heroes has subsequently come to be described, due to the rise and fall of numerous petty kingdoms over hundreds, or even thousands of years. True, but if the Hundred Kingdoms is a matter of usage then the 100 pieces of dragonglas may be likewise. After all we're hardly going to be in this position. Knock on gate. Sentinel: "Who's there?" Voice from without: "Us" Sentinel: "Who's us?" Voice: "Us, open up, we haven't got all day and its freezing out here." Sentinel: "What do you want?" Voice: "Nuffinck... we've got your dragonglass for you." Sentinel: Har, why didn't you say so. How much have you got?" Singer [for it is he]: Depends. How many kingdoms have you got?" Sentinel: "Har [again]... er... well Lyonnesse got swallered up by the sea the other week, and Heligoland got taken over by Old King Coel, and then there was Scotland, but you don't wanner know about Scotland, and then there was that Prince Valiant, word is he's set up for King, so that's a new one..." Singer: "Look will we just stick with the usual 100 pieces?" Sentinel: "Yeah, probably for the best... see you again next year, same time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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