Heresy 173

[Sly Wren]

Suppose the WWs are the humans who desperately turned to magic to avoid freezing and starvation?   What better why to survive than to transform yourself into a creature of ice?  Impervious to the cold.

Meanwhile, are the red/fire lot - like Mel - are a response to dragons?   How better to survive in a world full of dragonfire than to transform yourself into a creature of fire?   Impervious to the heat.

Just a thought.

Could maybe see this on a small scale--but seems like it would have had to go terribly wrong--walkers do NOT seem friendly to humans. So, seems like a terrible idea. 

 

Though--the story of "terrible half-human children"--Nan's story never says why women lie with the walkers. Crazy time--if you wanted your child to survive--hybrid might be a way to go.

 

Mel seems driven by fanaticism, not fear of dragons . . . 

 

Anyone else thinks that the long list of heroes attributed with ending the Long Nigh were just local warriors still standing when the Others decided to retreat?

 

Possible heroes:

-NW men fighting at the Battle of Dawn

-Possible a Dayne using Dawn

-The Crab King in Rhoynar

-Azor Ahai in Asshai

-further east:Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser

-The woman with a monkey's tail in Yi Ti

 

I just can't see how the Long Night could be ended by fighting. I think the Last Hero used diplomacy not a sword.

 

This will make the TPTP and Azor Ahai reborn less relevant. Jon Snow mixed heritage and willingness to compromise will bring another 8000 year truce

Could absolutely see this--and could see it happening again. No one sees what happens in the cave(assuming the cave=source) or anywhere else behind-the-scenes, so credit goes to the fighter that's standing. IE: Dany showed up with her dragons, so people think that's what did it. But it was a group effort, or behind-the-scenes. Actual solution may never have gotten into the songs last time around. Could see it not getting into the next round of songs, either.

[Black Crow]

Could maybe see this on a small scale--but seems like it would have had to go terribly wrong--walkers do NOT seem friendly to humans. So, seems like a terrible idea. 

 

Though--the story of "terrible half-human children"--Nan's story never says why women lie with the walkers. Crazy time--if you wanted your child to survive--hybrid might be a way to go.

 

Depends on how you define not friendly to humans. While we're obviously hampered thus far by a total lack of explanation I think that it could be easy to see them fit into a scenario as the "dispossessed" and their attitude fed by resentment and bitterness rather than simple blood-lust.

[Summer Is Coming!]

Just spinning off from there I had an interesting thought about glamours.

 

We're pretty confident that both Mel and Moqorro are using glamours to disguise their true appearance and pass for ordinary humans - with just the occasional shimmer to warn us that all is not quite as it seems

 

Turn to Craster's boys, as seen by Will. They actually appear human. They're described as tall and gaunt and as hard as old bone, but other than their eyes Will is seeing them in human terms. They are not unnaturally tall or otherwise physically different.

 

We've a pretty good idea that their stealth armour is some kind of glamour, used for concealment rather than disguise. But what if they chose to use it as a disguise. Could they then pass for regular humans?

 

There's an objection in the cold which comes with them, but Mel manages her heat. She can melt the ice in the gateway at Castle Black but yet no-one recoils from her furnace heat - she can go jig-a-jig too, without barbecuing her paramour.

 

Can Craster's boys too walk among us unrecognised if they choose?

 

That's an interesting final question.  From Melisandre's POV she has memories of being Lot Seven and Melony, we do not have any indicator of Craster's boys having some distant memory of that miserable keep or of any life before they were magically affected.  Part of it may be that they were so young when the magic was used upon them.  They may not really know what it is to be human or have any desire.  Perhaps they could be ordered to look human for a reconnaissance?  

 

Melisandre, despite her delusions, also seems to have a sort of ambition involving R'hllor but an agency of her own, and it's hard to tell if Craster's sons also possess this type of will and decision making since we've seen so little of them. 

[Black Crow]

 

That's an interesting final question.  From Melisandre's POV she has memories of being Lot Seven and Melony, we do not have any indicator of Craster's boys having some distant memory of that miserable keep or of any life before they were magically affected.  Part of it may be that they were so young when the magic was used upon them.  They may not really know what it is to be human or have any desire.  Perhaps they could be ordered to look human for a reconnaissance?  

 

Melisandre, despite her delusions, also seems to have a sort of ambition involving R'hllor but an agency of her own, and it's hard to tell if Craster's sons also possess this type of will and decision making since we've seen so little of them. 

 

Don't have the link to hand, but I think that this SSM is relevant to your point:

 

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child soldier is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

 

Now read the prologue again with both that in mind, and what we're told about Craster's sons.
 

[nanother]

 

The trees have and have always had eyes. Therefore Qhorin must mean that the eyes are seeing or watching. And no I don't know how he knows but it seemed to be a significant warning and one he clearly expected Mormont to understand.

 

'Must' is such a strong word. We don't even know for sure he means specifically the weirwood trees. It could very well refer to the same feeling Will& Gared have in the prologue:

Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too.

 

Funnily, Halfhand uses the phrase twice, once right after Jon tells him about his dream:

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?”

And once when he sends Stonesnake to warn Mormont:

“Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again.”

 

I agree. But not only are they watching now, but could even be seen as interacting. As I said earlier, when you take this in context with Mormont's earlier statement of the WW being seen on the shore, it's starting to sound like some kind of check-off list.

 

Yeah, I get that vibe as well.

[wolfmaid7]

 

Don't have the link to hand, but I think that this SSM is relevant to your point:

 

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child soldier is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

 

Now read the prologue again with both that in mind, and what we're told about Craster's sons.
 

This was in relation to Arya though

 

So when you had first introduced Arya, you knew she was going to become an assassin?

Well she's not an assassin yet. You are assuming she is going to become one. She's an apprentice.

But she's already going around killing people and she's learned a lot of the secrets.

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

[wolfmaid7]

 

'Must' is such a strong word. We don't even know for sure he means specifically the weirwood trees. It could very well refer to the same feeling Will& Gared have in the prologue:

Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too.

 

Funnily, Halfhand uses the phrase twice, once right after Jon tells him about his dream:

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?”

And once when he sends Stonesnake to warn Mormont:

“Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again.”

 

 

Yeah, I get that vibe as well.

Nahhhh  he's speaking specifically of Weirwoods we know this by the phrase " The trees have eyes again." This means something culturally feared. The last time the trees  had eyes the FM burnt them down fearing they were watching them.

 

Which is a bit different from feeling the Heebee Jeebees.

[Black Crow]

This was in relation to Arya though

 

So when you had first introduced Arya, you knew she was going to become an assassin?

Well she's not an assassin yet. You are assuming she is going to become one. She's an apprentice.

But she's already going around killing people and she's learned a lot of the secrets.

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

 

It was, but I think that it would be a mistake to regard it as pertaining solely to Arya.

[nanother]

Nahhhh  he's speaking specifically of Weirwoods we know this by the phrase " The trees have eyes again." This means something culturally feared. The last time the trees  had eyes the FM burnt them down fearing they were watching them.

 

Which is a bit different from feeling the Heebee Jeebees.

 

You might 'know', but I prefer to think that while it's indeed likely (due to the timing of the statement), it's not the only possibility. It's not just heebe-jebees either, something was watching them :p

 

Funnily, he's not freaked out by Ghost. I bet he suspected Jon might be a warg, and suspected a lot of other things about the 'old powers' that Jon now confirmed, yet he opted to take Jon & Ghost with him. Seems like he's happy to have some of those 'old powers' on his side.

[Black Crow]

He may be a bastard but he's our bastard  :devil:

[Tucu]

Could absolutely see this--and could see it happening again. No one sees what happens in the cave(assuming the cave=source) or anywhere else behind-the-scenes, so credit goes to the fighter that's standing. IE: Dany showed up with her dragons, so people think that's what did it. But it was a group effort, or behind-the-scenes. Actual solution may never have gotten into the songs last time around. Could see it not getting into the next round of songs, either.

I will applaud if GRRM makes all the prophecies of warrior saviours just red herrings and shaggy dog tales

[wolfmaid7]

 

You might 'know', but I prefer to think that while it's indeed likely (due to the timing of the statement), it's not the only possibility. It's not just heebe-jebees either, something was watching them :P

 

Funnily, he's not freaked out by Ghost. I bet he suspected Jon might be a warg, and suspected a lot of other things about the 'old powers' that Jon now confirmed, yet he opted to take Jon & Ghost with him. Seems like he's happy to have some of those 'old powers' on his side.

 

Yeah something was watching them but was that in part to something actually watching them or some of them were freaked out.As i always say its a matter of perspective. Royce didn't get that,he certainly didn't voice it,But Gared and Will who'd been out before certainly were spooked especially in light of a seasoned man swearing Wildlings were dead and now they were gone.

 

I'm looking at the context in which Qhorhin spoke and he's harkening back to something pivitol that happened and is happening again." Tell Mormont what Jon saw and how......tell him the trees have eyes again."

 

In truth they always had eyes,its just they've never had an individual(Jon) who was sensitive and could give them that inside perspective.

 

It was, but I think that it would be a mistake to regard it as pertaining solely to Arya.

I do get the parallel but not with the Craster's son angle because their blank slates.If you believe the wws started out as Craster's babes then they are basically abandoned children raised by their rescuers.

[TheMiddleHero]

 

'Must' is such a strong word. We don't even know for sure he means specifically the weirwood trees. It could very well refer to the same feeling Will& Gared have in the prologue:

Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too.

 

Funnily, Halfhand uses the phrase twice, once right after Jon tells him about his dream:

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?”

And once when he sends Stonesnake to warn Mormont:

“Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again.”

 

 

Yeah, I get that vibe as well.

 

 

Great post! Should save that so it doesn't get lost in the update. In my current reread, I remember Jon looking down over the Haunted Forest from the Fist, after struggling and failing to get Ghost up there and while looking down on the HF having the trees looking living, like armored soldiers or something similar I believe.

 

Almost gives me a feeling that the Horn of Joramun has already been blown.

[skarm]

Almost gives me a feeling that the Horn of Joramun has already been blown.

 

Unless the Horn of Joramun has a purpose other than the legendary one ("woke the giants from the earth") or the present-day claim ("will bring down the Wall") I doubt it. To me it seems like the 'check-list' the seasoned rangers/Wildlings are going down has started the scramble for the Horn to be sure.

[Lord Wraith]

I will applaud if GRRM makes all the prophecies of warrior saviours just red herrings and shaggy dog tales

 

Well to quote Marwyn.

 

"a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is ... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

 

It seems to me that a lot of the prophecy in ASOIAF is either off or self fulfilling prophecy. It would be interesting if they were all red herrings or just people being manipulated into believing prophecy via magic (like Greenseers or glass candles).

[Sly Wren]

 

Depends on how you define not friendly to humans. While we're obviously hampered thus far by a total lack of explanation I think that it could be easy to see them fit into a scenario as the "dispossessed" and their attitude fed by resentment and bitterness rather than simple blood-lust.

Maybe--if the humans transformed themselves into walkers from desperation in the cold--and then found themselves on the outs. . . maybe.

 

Can see the "dispossessed" scenario working better if walkers are agents of the Children, though. . . 

 

I will applaud if GRRM makes all the prophecies of warrior saviours just red herrings and shaggy dog tales

Amen. Or, Martin ends the books so that it looks like some of the prophecies were fulfilled, but too vague or ambiguous on details to know for sure. Would keep people arguing about which character was "actually" AAR--even after the books are done.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Nahhhh  he's speaking specifically of Weirwoods we know this by the phrase " The trees have eyes again." This means something culturally feared. The last time the trees  had eyes the FM burnt them down fearing they were watching them.
 
Which is a bit different from feeling the Heebee Jeebees.

I don't know. Bringing the prologue into the mix along with Craster giving his sons to the woods statement could give that phrase by Qhorin a broader meaning. The cold winds are rising, the trees have eyes again, the old powers etc. Etc.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Oh man. I didn't realize it is after midnight here. When I saw no one had posted since yesterday, it worried me for a moment. Lol.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

 
You might 'know', but I prefer to think that while it's indeed likely (due to the timing of the statement), it's not the only possibility. It's not just heebe-jebees either, something was watching them :p
 
Funnily, he's not freaked out by Ghost. I bet he suspected Jon might be a warg, and suspected a lot of other things about the 'old powers' that Jon now confirmed, yet he opted to take Jon & Ghost with him. Seems like he's happy to have some of those 'old powers' on his side.

Snowfyre Chorus has a good little theory about Mance searching for power in the Frostfangs and finds Jon. It's in one of these Heresy threads in the last six months.

[Lady Dyanna]

There was a tree with my brothers face. The wildlings there were thousands, more than I ever knew existed. And giants riding mammoths.

I would assume this is where the statement that the trees have eyes originates from. However, it doesn't appear that this is the only thing that's bothering him.

Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again.