Heresy 173

[Black Crow]

I would assume this is where the statement that the trees have eyes originates from. However, it doesn't appear that this is the only thing that's bothering him.
 

 

It isn't and when talking to Tyrion earlier Mormont talks about "darker things" in his dreams. The "trees have eyes again" is clearly something which Mormont will understand and the whole message can be very simply paraphrased as:

 

"All the powers of Hell are ranged against us"

[Black Crow]

And that includes the three-fingered tree-huggers

[Black Crow]

 

Unless the Horn of Joramun has a purpose other than the legendary one ("woke the giants from the earth") or the present-day claim ("will bring down the Wall") I doubt it. To me it seems like the 'check-list' the seasoned rangers/Wildlings are going down has started the scramble for the Horn to be sure.

 

GRRM does make a point all the way through of warning that prophecy is not to be trusted, which is why I'm frankly bemused that so many readers assume that Azor Ahai will return to save the world. 

 

This is particularly true of this one where we have two different prophecies attaching to the same horn; waking giants from the earth and bringing the Wall down, although arguably waking said giants may result in said Wall falling over. The point is that it seems to mean what people want it to mean, and there I'll switch back to Azor Ahai and the Prince that was promised. Mel proclaims him as the champion of light and that the darkness will flee before him - and this mark you before she's even heard of the blue-eyed lot up North, while Master Benero is busy preaching that Azor Ahai is going to take on the Old Blood of Valyria. The Prince that was Promised? Mel reckons that he and Azor Ahai are one and the same.

 

Ultimately I'd argue that they are all one and the same and that the Prince that was Promised may be the clue to it all and a reference to Psalm 146; Put not your trust in Princes...

 

Or rather, given GRRM's stance on religion: put not your trust in Princes that were promised whether they're called Azor Ahai, Joruman, Jon Snow or Uncle Tom Cobbley. This is something that has to be resolved by man, not by prophecy.

[Reposado]

 

GRRM does make a point all the way through of warning that prophecy is not to be trusted, which is why I'm frankly bemused that so many readers assume that Azor Ahai will return to save the world. 

 

 

 

so far, every prophecy has come true, but not in the way you might have expected after hearing it. and for azor ahai, the prophecy doesn't even say that he will save the world. he will wake dragons from stone, draw a burning sword form the fire,(and wield it) and wake dragons from stone. and cause darkness to flee.

 

i think it is safe to say that all of that will happen, but perhaps more metaphorically than melisandre thinks. (and of course, everything except fleeing darkness has already happened) and everything except the waking dragons was metaphorical.

 

it could also be the case, that everything in the azor ahai prophecy happens twice. we haven't yet gotten to the point where jon is reborn, but it would be interesting if he is also AA and fulfills the waking dragons part metaphorically,and the burning sword in this case is literal.  

[Matthew.]

 

so far, every prophecy has come true, but not in the way you might have expected after hearing it. 

I don't know... I think people give GRRM far too much credit in his usage of prophecy.

For the most part, he's used it like every other fantasy writer--as a rather hackish means of foreshadowing. Sometimes prophecies come true in an unexpected way (or, more accurately, they're so ambiguous as to be useless until after the fact), but in other instances the prophecies are a little too on the nose. Especially the various visions of the Red Wedding, and one vision from the Ghost of High Heart in which I'm pretty sure a Faceless Man is literally a "man with no face."

To be frank, I'm particularly bothered by the Maggy the Frog prophecy, which I think was a really bad addition to the novels. It's very specific, has been completely true thus far, and he has made it a core motivating factor for Cersei. I'd really prefer if her arc was entirely about her thinking of herself as Tywin 2.0, when she's actually Mad Aerys 2.0, without the added layer of prophecy. I don't feel that the whole self-fulfilling element of it, where her fear of the prophecy is leading toward actions that ensure it comes true, justifies it as a plot addition, nor does yelling "surprise! you thought the volanqar was X, but it's actually Y!" at the end.

So too with all of this AA/TPTWP stuff. If it's a shaggy dog story, he should have never added it in the first place, or confined it purely to the doctrine of the R'hllorists, and Mel's zealotry. I also don't think that AA turning out to be someone other than Dany, or actually being a "villain" is really subversive or interesting either  :dunno: 

Okay, enough anti-prophecy rant

[Lord Ravenstark]

As for readers thinking that prophecies are absolutely truth. Most also believe that being Valyrian gives instant superiority, which for me strikes as fantastical racism.

[Black Crow]

I don't know... I think people give GRRM far too much credit in his usage of prophecy.

For the most part, he's used it like every other fantasy writer--as a rather hackish means of foreshadowing. Sometimes prophecies come true in an unexpected way (or, more accurately, they're so ambiguous as to be useless until after the fact), but in other instances the prophecies are a little too on the nose. Especially the various visions of the Red Wedding, and one vision from the Ghost of High Heart in which I'm pretty sure a Faceless Man is literally a "man with no face."

To be frank, I'm particularly bothered by the Maggy the Frog prophecy, which I think was a really bad addition to the novels. It's very specific, has been completely true thus far, and he has made it a core motivating factor for Cersei. I'd really prefer if her arc was entirely about her thinking of herself as Tywin 2.0, when she's actually Mad Aerys 2.0, without the added layer of prophecy. I don't feel that the whole self-fulfilling element of it, where her fear of the prophecy is leading toward actions that ensure it comes true, justifies it as a plot addition, nor does yelling "surprise! you thought the volanqar was X, but it's actually Y!" at the end.

So too with all of this AA/TPTWP stuff. If it's a shaggy dog story, he should have never added it in the first place, or confined it purely to the doctrine of the R'hllorists, and Mel's zealotry. I also don't think that AA turning out to be someone other than Dany, or actually being a "villain" is really subversive or interesting either  :dunno: 

Okay, enough anti-prophecy rant

 

Only up to a point. Where prophecy has come true, as in the case of Danaerys' vision of the Red Wedding it was pretty useless in that no-one knew about it and its only through back-tracking we realise what the vision was [or may have been] about. 

 

As to the prophecy told to Cersei the point about that one is not its coming true but her actions intended to frustrate it, while conversely the real point of the Azor Ahai prophecy is not whether it will come true and who the lucky winner is, but rather the lengths which Melisandre for one will go to to try and make it happen.

[Black Crow]

As for readers thinking that prophecies are absolutely truth. Most also believe that being Valyrian gives instant superiority, which for me strikes as fantastical racism.

 

Ah, the golden age of the Targaryen kings and princes, beautiful people ruling wisely, riding dragons gracefully - and burning alive anybody who got in their way.

[Sly Wren]

 

Ah, the golden age of the Targaryen kings and princes, beautiful people ruling wisely, riding dragons gracefully - and burning alive anybody who got in their way.

And Jon, as the magical mixed blood Messiah of Targ "burners" and Stark wargs who sacrifice to trees, will magically make everything better. All by himself. He's amazing!

 

I don't know... I think people give GRRM far too much credit in his usage of prophecy.

For the most part, he's used it like every other fantasy writer--as a rather hackish means of foreshadowing. Sometimes prophecies come true in an unexpected way (or, more accurately, they're so ambiguous as to be useless until after the fact), but in other instances the prophecies are a little too on the nose. Especially the various visions of the Red Wedding, and one vision from the Ghost of High Heart in which I'm pretty sure a Faceless Man is literally a "man with no face."

So too with all of this AA/TPTWP stuff. If it's a shaggy dog story, he should have never added it in the first place, or confined it purely to the doctrine of the R'hllorists, and Mel's zealotry. I also don't think that AA turning out to be someone other than Dany, or actually being a "villain" is really subversive or interesting either  :dunno: 

Okay, enough anti-prophecy rant

Fair enough--but it also seems to be his way of messing with readers. Everyone chases the prophecies and vague hints, even though he tells us felt out not to. 

 

And he is creating a world where magic exists. Makes sense he'd have people who believe in prophecy. Then use it against the readers--foreshadowing, yes. But also a lull into believing that if we see the foreshadowing on one easy prophecy that the characters missed, we must be able to figure out the other prophecies. Because we must be smarter than the characters. Hackish? Maybe. Bit twisted? Yes. 

[Voice]

This post is kind of long, although I prefer to think it is just large enough for my mind.

 

 

If they need him, why not use him? I mean, it should be easy for them.

 

- Hello, is it Lord Manderly?

- Uh, yes? What is this? Who is talking? How are you talking through a tree?

- I am one who sings the song of earth, speaker of the true tongue. First, you faith is a false one, embrace the real gods and...

- What do you want?

- Oh, I got your prince. I will give him back if you let us live in the cozy Wolfswood. Meet me on the first light in Castle Black.

 

Obviously, they can't take advantage from hostages.

 

Yup. And they're not Men. Just as time is different for a weirwood, so too might we expect the cotf to have a different priorities than Men.

 

Certain folks around these parts tend to anthropomorphize the cotf in a way the text doesn't. Rather than break the Pact, and lauch a terror campaign against FM and Andals alike with an army of Ice Soldiers, they've sided with FM in order to protect the trees, and when that didn't work, they went into exile.

 

Since the Pact, whenever Men have needed aid, the cotf have given it. Whether it be obsidian, advice, ancient magics, or three-fingered archers.

 

 

Hello dear Sir :cheers:

 

I do remember Andals had no part in that Pact. But who then remains from First Men? I mean, most of the westerosi families practise Faith and are in one way or another related to Andals. I wonder if Andals and First Men are so much different from COTF point of view. Of course, northerners are one exception from this rule.

 

Cheers to you as well Small Other :)

 

And I agree there has been sufficient intermingling between Andals and FM to muddy the waters, but the truth remains, that some Houses "Keep the Old Gods", and some, do not. The Pact was a religious agreement, as much as a political one. Some houses honor it, and even send their sons, or join the Night's Watch willingly. Some remember, even if they have forgotten. Some hold guest-right sacred. Some.

 

The same can be said of the cotf, unless Leaf's band are the only survivors in existence (which I highly doubt). My point being, some of the cotf are keeping faith as well. Mayhaps not all, but some are.

 

Some from one race... and some from a different race...

 

What makes them the same? Their historical connection to the Pact, and remembering their promises to one another. Some men forget, of course. Or choose to forget. Others keep their word. And the choice makes all the difference. 

 

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

 

 

Course not. They're all white-eyes. :devil:

 

LOL! While I quite appreciate that particular reference (cheers, ser), I must disagree. The Andals were not present on the Isle of Faces to agree to the terms of the Pact. They are a separate tribe, with a distinct language, and a completely different religion. And 'the Pact' was clearly religious in nature. The Andals are no more bound to it than Al Qaeda is bound to the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

 

While your confidence is impressive, I think your scenario on this matter leaves much to be desired with the current reality:

• Andal-leaning Houses are disconnected from these events, both religiously and politically
• Bran is literally connected to a weirwood tree

 

 

Right--monsters come from humans being horrible or stupid. But also from humans being fanatical and chasing power--including via magic. Mel-the-tranformed and her shadowbabies and immolations. MMR and the tent, House of the Undying. Bloodraven in the weirwood chair--humans can become inhuman and monstrous via choice to use magic.

 

And no, shouldn't mistrust the Singers via appearance. Also shouldn't lionize them. Or deify them. No evidence yet that they don't have the full range of human-like emotions and motives--so far, really seems like they do. "Children are people, too"--and thus capable of monstrosity. So, can trust or mistrust them just as much as you would people in Martinlandia.

 

I completely agree, in terms of the cotf being complex creatures capable of favorable intent, or ill. But, I would have to disagree that it's been demonstrated they have a human-like range of emotions. Leaf seems quite apathetic.

 

 

As you point, whatever the situation may once have been long long ago there's precious little evidence that they or anybody else regards the children and the watch as allies.

 

But there's another point to consider. The walkers are not a race who have been lurking up there in the cold for 8,000 or rather 6,000-odd years buding their time. We now know that they are magical constructs created for a present purpose just as Mel's shadow babies are created, so we're still left with the question of who has created them and why and right now the three fingered tree-huggers are the only suspects.

 

*biding

 

And yes, they have. You should check out the OP sometime. ;)

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

 

Otherwise, why wouldn't they speak a modern dialect? Hell, in your scenario, why would they require language at all? Or a sense of humor?

 

 

I would agree on some some parts of this even the part where the COTF are'nt involved.On the greenseers we will always remain on opposite ends i think they are the ones that are responsible for the wws and the wights.the whole .The normal person has never seen the Others those that are behind the wights and the wws and they never will see them.The greenseers have been under the wire all this time cloaked in darkness and ignorance of their existence is why they are so successful.So when i say the wws are boogey men you can take that to the bank.No different than the straw men Donaly Noyce put up to make the Wildlings think members were guarding the Wall.I wouldn't be suprise to see your ice spiders being ridden..........by something creepy but they still won't be the ones pulling the strings.

 

You believe that the greenseers are all about balance and keeping homeostasis.They can be ,but they aren't and they haven't been since they first were stirred into action.They are just very powerful skinchangers with an extra ump in terms of seeing the world beneath the world.They are the power that has to be brought in line.They are the hearts that needs settling.

 

The LN of 8,000 years wasn't won on the battle field so you're right no amount of Obsidian in the world could have one that.But i think your incorrect in saying the Others don't have that type of power....they do.Its the same power we've been seeing attached to the greenseers because it IS them.Be it BR and his crew or another posse.Its them.

 

:cheers: And yes, our disagreement lies more in the seperation/union of earth/ice magic than in the hierarchy of the Others, I believe.

 

I'm not sure why you insist on calling those pulling the strings greenseers though. That will never make sense to me. Blueseers seems more apt, given, you know, the blue eyes, starlight, ice, cold, darkness, etc etc.

 

We agree on the "hearts that need settling" part, actually, as well. Except, for me, the Heart is the Trees (collectively), not the seer within their roots.

 

I'm not sure what to say about your last paragraph. You seem overly confident given we have zero perspective on the power, let alone a body of evidence that should force us to accept greenseers are the ones wielding it. Given that greenseers wield life, specifically, I'm confident in my belief that your interpretation is dead wrong on this subject. ;)

 

 

The trees have and have always had eyes. Therefore Qhorin must mean that the eyes are seeing or watching. And no I don't know how he knows but it seemed to be a significant warning and one he clearly expected Mormont to understand.

 

Here, we agree. Cheers, ser. :cheers:

 

 

No.

Even with a baseline assumption that the white walkers are constructs of magic, it's speculative to say that the CotF are suspects for raising them, even more speculative to say they're the best suspects, and completely untenable to declare them the only suspects.

At the very least, men are good suspects. Men can skinchange, men can use the greensight, men can raise constructs of shadow to attack their enemies, men can resurrect the dead, men can use glamours, men can drink Shade of the Evening and become Undying. In short, men can do a lot with magic.

Furthermore, men were in Westeros when the Others first appeared, and they're certainly in Westeros now, as they reappear. Men are suspects for precisely the same speculative reason that the CotF should be suspects--they were in the right place at the right time, and we know they utilize magic.

Then, of course, there's the "stranger" options. We have tales of the Others doing things we haven't yet seen in modern Westeros--siring terrible half-human children (white walkers?), riding ice spiders, drinking blood...and, perhaps, even having females in their ranks, depending on the nature of the Night's Queen. All of which could mean that the Others, the True Others, or whatever you wish to call them, have not yet revealed themselves.

 

And there's this, as well. The white walkers could, in essence, be something of a magical parasite race; a species composed of magic, and requiring offerings to perpetuate themselves, as they do not reproduce by typical biological means.

One might say this is incompatible with GRRM's statement that he doesn't know if they have a culture (which, mind you, is not the same as saying "NO, they don't have a culture"), but it may be that he's not sure whether or not the WWs have a culture in much the same way that he might not be sure whether or not dragons have a culture. It may be that, as a different form of life, the motives of the WW are too inhuman and incomprehensible for "culture" as we would define it to be applicable.

 

Very well said.

 

 

1 Could be that we haven't see the source, yet. Or that we have and have been primed to think the source is either neutral or friendly--like Bran's been told stories of the helpful Children, and thinks the green men helped "the crannogman" in Meera's story . . . 

 

2 Magical parasites/ species? Would this mean the spell that holds them together would be one they can pass on to other Others? Can't think of a parallel for this yet . . .So far, seems like magics have to be done case by case--raising Beric, Mel's shadows, Dany's dragons--or are you thinking something like greyscale--transmitted by touch, rumored to be carried in fog, and "transforms" humans into inhuman beings who can infect others? Something else?

 

1. Precisely.

 

2. Antibodies.

 

 

1 Agree on Long Night was more than just regular winter. I usually take Martin's statement that the Westerosi weather's being supernaturally driven is tied to the Long Night's being supernatural, too. That may be a leap. Some support--the Last Hero got help for dealing with it, battle for the dawn, etc.--but those could just be stories in the face of an apocalyptic event. 

 

2 If the Others are a race, could see Long Night as bringing them out of Land of Always Winter--though their actions seemed just about killing in the stories and books--and the cold kills first--and then raises wights. Why come south? Maybe they are like well-fed house cats and just like killing things--that sounds sarcastic, but I'm serious. House cats are some of the very few animals that kill for entertainment.

 

3 If only come in Long Night, why do we see them beforehand? I'd been assuming that we were being shown some of the wind-up into Long Night, and the wind-up included the rise of the walkers. But if they exist per se--would the idea be that some stayed "south" of the Land of Always Winter? 

 

4 But "whoever or whatever the Others are may have caused this, but they may have simply been a response to it--humanity's desperate turn to magic to avoid freezing and starvation"--not sure here how making the Others would accomplish this. Unless the magic went really wrong?

 

5 Think that if humans made the Others alone, Others wouldn't have stuck around quite so long. Mel's shadow babies seem very limited. Even the illusions created by the undying in Qarth--the undying are still killable and can only do so much. If the humans raised the Others by themselves the first time, seems like they'd have to do it again--unless they are capable of a magic that gives much more durability to the Others than any other creations we've seen. Unless you're thinking of an example in the books that I'm just stupidly missing.

 

1. I think in this universe, there is no such thing as "regular winter", all seasons are magically driven, rather than physically. But yes, the Long Night was nothing, if not supernatural.

 

Where I disagree is that the Last Hero is not simply a story told at a woman's tit. (Although we are more fool than Waymar Royce to dismiss such stories.) His deeds are also recorded in the annals of Castle Black.

 

2. The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

 

3. The fact that we see them before winter, I believe, is quite telling. They've been lurking in the far north all this time. There's no telling how many sable-cloaked lordlings they've butchered every summer for the past 8000 years.

 

4. Antibodies.

 

5. :cheers: And, in my mind, this is precisely the problem with cotf being behind them as well. Cotf are mortal. They sing the song of earth. They forge no metal. Yet, they created magical beings of ice that hold longswords? It doesn't add up.

 

 

It's also possible that ice magic has the ability to last longer, which makes sense thematically when you think about it. Fire consumes and ice preserves.

 

Also, keep in mind that there may just be a difference in purpose to the magic that can account for specific longevity (ie - Mel's shadow fiend completed its assigned mission, whereas it's possible that the White Walkers, if created by magic, haven't fulfilled whatever purpose they were created for). 

 

I'm also kind of leaving Qarth warlocks out of the picture. I get the distinct impression that they are way more illusionist/magician than sorcerer/wizard, so I'm not sure you can fairly compare them to construct magic. 

 

I agree with much of this, except I would not deem Mel as part of Fire, but of Shadow, and discard her with the warlocks of Qarth...

 

 

While its non-canon inasmuch as it only came from the mummers' version, Sam's explanation that wights were raised by the "touch" of the white walkers is a line in an episode written by GRRM.

 

Which is also in line with:

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

 

Don't have the link to hand, but I think that this SSM is relevant to your point:

 

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child soldier is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

 

Now read the prologue again with both that in mind, and what we're told about Craster's sons.

 

Ah, so this is where it comes from. You're a semicanonite. I had a feeling we were using different source materials all this time :smug:

 

 

'Must' is such a strong word. We don't even know for sure he means specifically the weirwood trees. It could very well refer to the same feeling Will& Gared have in the prologue:

Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too.

 

Funnily, Halfhand uses the phrase twice, once right after Jon tells him about his dream:

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?”

And once when he sends Stonesnake to warn Mormont:

“Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again.”

 

While I like the symmetry, and I don't think anyone here would disagree that the "old powers waking" and "the trees have eyes again" are unconnected, I think Qhorin's statement was specific enough that he was talking about trees, greenseers, cotf, and wetnurse tales.

 

Keeping in mind how very astute Mormont is among his band of ingrates, and how equally astute Qhorin seems to be, I think he's alluding to something Mormont and Jon and other brothers who have heard the tales know about. I think he's talking about how the trees once kept watch, and how now they are, once again, keeping watch. This may have great implications regarding the Pact, and the reason Bran has been summoned.

 

 

This was in relation to Arya though

 

So when you had first introduced Arya, you knew she was going to become an assassin?

Well she's not an assassin yet. You are assuming she is going to become one. She's an apprentice.

But she's already going around killing people and she's learned a lot of the secrets.

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

 

Yup. :cheers: wolfmaid, it's been too long since we've clinked!

 

 

It was, but I think that it would be a mistake to regard it as pertaining solely to Arya.

 

But of course you would, as you would like to take the quote out of context in order to support your three-fingered puppetmasters theory. Still not buying it my friend.

[Matthew.]

Where prophecy has come true...

How many prophecies and visions have we seen that are unquestionably false--that have not come true, will not come true, can never come true? 
 

 

 

 As to the prophecy told to Cersei the point about that one is not its coming true but her actions intended to frustrate it

 

I acknowledged this in my post, and still stand behind what I said. I don't think what he's doing with the Maggy the Frog prophecy is clever or interesting, and I think it actually cheapens Cersei's arc. I really hate it as a plot development.

As for Mel and Azor Ahai, that's the lone instance of prophecy in the series that I actually enjoy--Mel has essentially ruined Stannis' life on the basis of "Hey...this guy rules Dragonstone, where there's a lot of smoke and salt, and he's got a little Targaryen blood, soo...."
 

[Black Crow]

 

LOL! While I quite appreciate that particular reference (cheers, ser), I must disagree. The Andals were not present on the Isle of Faces to agree to the terms of the Pact. They are a separate tribe, with a distinct language, and a completely different religion. And 'the Pact' was clearly religious in nature. The Andals are no more bound to it than Al Qaeda is bound to the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

 

Nah, the First Men adopting the worship of the Old Gods came later. The Point about the Pact was that it was more like the Adams-Onis treaty, defining the land boundaries between the two - and that was completely screwed in our world as in theirs by Manifest Destiny. 

[Voice]

Nah, the First Men adopting the worship of the Old Gods came later. The Point about the Pact was that it was more like the Adams-Onis treaty, defining the land boundaries between the two - and that was completely screwed in our world as in theirs by Manifest Destiny. 

 

I'm pretty well versed in Manifest Destiny. It was a fairy tale. The realities of colonization, treatymaking/breaking, were a bit more nuanced.

[skarm]

 

GRRM does make a point all the way through of warning that prophecy is not to be trusted, which is why I'm frankly bemused that so many readers assume that Azor Ahai will return to save the world. 

 

This is particularly true of this one where we have two different prophecies attaching to the same horn; waking giants from the earth and bringing the Wall down, although arguably waking said giants may result in said Wall falling over. The point is that it seems to mean what people want it to mean

 

 

[snip]

 

I fully agree with you here. Personally I think everything surrounding the legend (legends and prophecy both fit in the 'don't trust this' category) of Joramun is fairly prime example of how contradictory or murky things are. Joramun himself, a legendary King-Beyond-The-Wall, either a) broke himself on the wall or b) against Winterfell on the other side. Additionally he's also said to have joined forces with one of the many Brandon Stark's of the past to defeat the Night's King. So... here we either have him as being defeated on the wall, passing the wall, fighting the Night's Watch/The Starks, and then potentially joining up with the Starks against a rogue Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Hmm. Unless, then, the theory is he never tried to surpass the Wall as claimed and instead marched south to join with Stark to remove the threat of the Night's King. And that's all to say we know absolutely nothing. Regardless of the interpretation of what the 'giants awakened by the Horn of Joramun' entails, its hard to see this as having panned out because the Wall still stands, and Joramun's allegiances are still in question. So where did these legends of the Horn come from, and how can anyone claim it can take down the Wall?

 

I think in this case its probably to the same point others have brought up in previous Heresy's I've managed to read (newbie here still!) -- it doesn't necessarily matter as long as people believe it has the power to do so and act accordingly. Such as the argument that its irrelevant that Stannis Baratheon isn't Azor Ahai Reborn (a popular thought that he isn't) because Melisandre and the Queen's men believe he is and act accordingly. 

 

So yes, I definitely agree that putting absolute faith in prophecy, legend, or some supernatural godly force is going to end in disaster. I'm very partial to the thought that when the series ultimately ends while we might have a lot more information about some of these myths and legends they'll still be very much the same: open to interpretation.

[Black Crow]

# Voice re Manifest Destiny

 

'Course it was mince, but my 3x great grandfather died trying to stop it and no matter how many nuances are placed on it the fact of the matter that treaty after treaty was broken as soon as it became convenient to do so.

[Balerion06]

How many prophecies and visions have we seen that are unquestionably false--that have not come true, will not come true, can never come true? 
 
 
 
I acknowledged this in my post, and still stand behind what I said. I don't think what he's doing with the Maggy the Frog prophecy is clever or interesting, and I think it actually cheapens Cersei's arc. I really hate it as a plot development.

As for Mel and Azor Ahai, that's the lone instance of prophecy in the series that I actually enjoy--Mel has essentially ruined Stannis' life on the basis of "Hey...this guy rules Dragonstone, where there's a lot of smoke and salt, and he's got a little Targaryen blood, soo...."
 

I have a somewhat crackpot theory that Maggy's prophecy is a construct of Cersei's increasing paranoia. I'm sure Cersei met a fortune teller named Maggy who sucked her blood. However, I suspect Maggy just gave her and Melara something incredibly vague, and in her own mind, Cersei keeps adding specific details to it. Notice how the prophecy increasingly becomes more and more detailed the more delusional and paranoid Cersei becomes throughtout Feast.

[skarm]

I have a somewhat crackpot theory that Maggy's prophecy is a construct of Cersei's increasing paranoia. I'm sure Cersei met a fortune teller named Maggy who sucked her blood. However, I suspect Maggy just gave her and Melara something incredibly vague, and in her own mind, Cersei keeps adding specific details to it. Notice how the prophecy increasingly becomes more and more detailed the more delusional and paranoid Cersei becomes throughtout Feast.

 

For as 'specific' as the Maggy prophecy was it still was fairly vague and open to Cersei's own interpretation. And that's assuming its taken at absolute face value. Either way Cersei has certainly done her best to make it self-fulfilling.

[Black Crow]

I have a somewhat crackpot theory that Maggy's prophecy is a construct of Cersei's increasing paranoia. I'm sure Cersei met a fortune teller named Maggy who sucked her blood. However, I suspect Maggy just gave her and Melara something incredibly vague, and in her own mind, Cersei keeps adding specific details to it. Notice how the prophecy increasingly becomes more and more detailed the more delusional and paranoid Cersei becomes throughtout Feast.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if this was so.

[Reposado]

re: "the trees have eyes again"

 

i wouldn't be surprised if this line is something taht has been gardened around. Clearly he means that something is watching again, but given what we now know, it seems strange that things haven't been watching all along.

 

given that this was printed twelve years before the name bloodraven made it to print

[Voice]

# Voice re Manifest Destiny
 
'Course it was mince, but my 3x great grandfather died trying to stop it and no matter how many nuances are placed on it the fact of the matter that treaty after treaty was broken as soon as it became convenient to do so.

Sorry BC, but as an Oglala, I'm not all that impressed.