Small Questions v. 10102

[ebourget]

Here's a question of Jaquen H'ghar and chronology. I've read that both pate and Balon's demise are attributed to JH. However, JH kills pate in the prologue of AFFC. And only in the following chapter(first chapter in the book) do we learn that Balon has just died. The news of balon's death isn't something that would have been concealed for the weeks or months required to travel to old town. Perhaps there is tricky chronology involved with prologues, but in a linear chronology, JH kills pate in the citadel before balon dies. Seeing as how JH was in old town to acquire a skeleton key for the citadel, I have to imagine he was still in old town for sometime to complete his mission. How then could he be at Pyke to kill balon in the very next chapter...

So the question is: which victim was JH's? Or did he somehow do both? If he only killed one, who killed the other?

[Shireen Purratheon]

I assume this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it. Is there a consensus on the pronunciation of certain Valyrian names? I'm specifically wondering about Jacaerys and Lucerys Velaryon. In the worldbook, Jacaerys is called Jace and Lucerys is called Luke. This would imply a soft c in the first name and a hard c in the second same, but I would think there would be internal consistency in the names as there is for most other Valyrian names.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Here's a question of Jaquen H'ghar and chronology. I've read that both pate and Balon's demise are attributed to JH. However, JH kills pate in the prologue of AFFC. And only in the following chapter(first chapter in the book) do we learn that Balon has just died. The news of balon's death isn't something that would have been concealed for the weeks or months required to travel to old town. Perhaps there is tricky chronology involved with prologues, but in a linear chronology, JH kills pate in the citadel before balon dies. Seeing as how JH was in old town to acquire a skeleton key for the citadel, I have to imagine he was still in old town for sometime to complete his mission. How then could he be at Pyke to kill balon in the very next chapter...

So the question is: which victim was JH's? Or did he somehow do both? If he only killed one, who killed the other?

You learned about Balon's death before Robb reached the Twins.

[corbon]

I assume this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it. Is there a consensus on the pronunciation of certain Valyrian names? I'm specifically wondering about Jacaerys and Lucerys Velaryon. In the worldbook, Jacaerys is called Jace and Lucerys is called Luke. This would imply a soft c in the first name and a hard c in the second same, but I would think there would be internal consistency in the names as there is for most other Valyrian names.

 

I'm only guessing and no expert but I suspect the extra a has something to do with it. So the ae form affects the c in front of it, similar to how a silent e after a consonant can affect the vowel sound before the consonant (mat/mate, mad/made etc) in english.

[corbon]

That Aerys lusted after Joanna, and showed interest in Joanna, does not mean that he desired to wed her, make her his queen, and have children with her who would inherit the throne. That Aerys looked at Volantis first, and Volantis as the only of the Free Cities, does suggest blood mattered, at least to a degree.

 

Isn't the comment made that Aerys married his sister in obedience to his father's wishes but if he could have chosen anyone to marry it would have been Joanna?

 

And the looking to Volantis, blood mattering, thats for his son Rhaegar. In other words, thats decades after he's been forced to marry for blood himself. I'm not sure there is any evidence at all that he felt that way early on.

[ebourget]

You learned about Balon's death before Robb reached the Twins.

Was that just from the old ghost ladie's greenseeing or is there another instance I'm forgetting? Because I thought the old lady at the God's eye was more foretelling rather than just passing along news. In which case the chronology is still questionable.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Here's a question of Jaquen H'ghar and chronology. I've read that both pate and Balon's demise are attributed to JH. However, JH kills pate in the prologue of AFFC. And only in the following chapter(first chapter in the book) do we learn that Balon has just died. The news of balon's death isn't something that would have been concealed for the weeks or months required to travel to old town. Perhaps there is tricky chronology involved with prologues, but in a linear chronology, JH kills pate in the citadel before balon dies. Seeing as how JH was in old town to acquire a skeleton key for the citadel, I have to imagine he was still in old town for sometime to complete his mission. How then could he be at Pyke to kill balon in the very next chapter...

So the question is: which victim was JH's? Or did he somehow do both? If he only killed one, who killed the other?

Pate was killed by Jaqen.. the descriptions of appearance match.

Balon was killed by a faceless man, before (Robb learns of his death before reaching the Twins). We don't know what FM, only that Euron is behind it. At times people name Jaqen because he is the one FM we know to be in Westeros, but in truth, there is no was to say which FM killed Balon. Someone send from Braavos most like, as it was a hired kill.

[ebourget]

Pate was killed by Jaqen.. the descriptions of appearance match.

Balon was killed by a faceless man, before (Robb learns of his death before reaching the Twins). We don't know what FM, only that Euron is behind it. At times people name Jaqen because he is the one FM we know to be in Westeros, but in truth, there is no was to say which FM killed Balon. Someone send from Braavos most like, as it was a hired kill.

Thank you Rhaenys! I'm on a reread of AFFC and the overlap of these events right at the start of the book bothered me immediately, given all the FM tinfoil.

[spoon89]

Chronological order is only true on a per character perspective (for example all the Bran chapters occur in order).

 

The chapter order in the book is not always chronologically accurate, there are overlaps between books and the prologues and epilogues may occur after or before other chapters.

 

One good example is right at the start of GToT. Daenerys I and II happen before the prologue and Bran I, then they are in chronological order until Jon II, then things get shuffled out of order again chronological or due to travel times. Due to story telling, remote chapters (Daenerys in this example) tend to occur close to the chapters where the others hear of the remote events.

 

Here's a question of Jaquen H'ghar and chronology. I've read that both pate and Balon's demise are attributed to JH. However, JH kills pate in the prologue of AFFC. And only in the following chapter(first chapter in the book) do we learn that Balon has just died. The news of balon's death isn't something that would have been concealed for the weeks or months required to travel to old town. Perhaps there is tricky chronology involved with prologues, but in a linear chronology, JH kills pate in the citadel before balon dies. Seeing as how JH was in old town to acquire a skeleton key for the citadel, I have to imagine he was still in old town for sometime to complete his mission. How then could he be at Pyke to kill balon in the very next chapter...

So the question is: which victim was JH's? Or did he somehow do both? If he only killed one, who killed the other?

 

Time wise it is possible for Jaquen to leave Harrenhal, go to Pyke and then to Oldtown, but he would be on a very tight schedule and he would need some luck or magical aid.

 

There are a three other possibilities: one being that there are two faceless men operatives Jaquen (leaves Harrenhal and goes to Old Town) and FM#2 (kills Balon and ?), and two that don't include FM which I call the inside job and the outside job.

[spoon89]

Was that just from the old ghost ladie's greenseeing or is there another instance I'm forgetting? Because I thought the old lady at the God's eye was more foretelling rather than just passing along news. In which case the chronology is still questionable.

 

While on the way to the twins for Edmure's wedding while in the Hag's Mire, Robb receives word of Balon's death.

[spoon89]

Can you remind me where it is stated that Tywin had tried to propose the math in 272 AC already? I know he said something to Cersei about marrying her to Rhaegar when she was 'six or seven', but I recall nothing of actual attempts, nor anything about whether he already had the idea by the time of the tourney, or whether it developed after Joanna's death only, when Cersei was seven.

Tywin brought Cersei to court when she was twelve, in 278 AC, after Steffons death (and as Steffon was also send to Volantis in 278 AC, I assume Cersei arrived at court rather late in the year). That'a three years she spend at court, arriving while most likely betrothal arrangements were already going on between KL and Sunspear, seeing as the betrothal itself was annouced early in 279 AC.

That Aerys lusted after Joanna, and showed interest in Joanna, does not mean that he desired to wed her, make her his queen, and have children with her who would inherit the throne. That Aerys looked at Volantis first, and Volantis as the only of the Free Cities, does suggest blood mattered, at least to a degree.

 

I stated that it was arguable. Tywin sponsored two tournaments that we are aware of, 272AC in KL (Aerys II anniversary) and 276AC in CR at which he openly proposed the match. I see no other reason for Tywin to sponsor a tourney in 272AC if he did not have some ulterior motive, since the relationship between Tywin and Aerys was already headed down hill at that time. Tourney's are put on not just a celebrations, they are demonstrations of wealth, social standing and put on for political reasons, if you look at Robert he put them on as demonstrations of wealth and for the social standing, Tywin on the the other hand strikes me as the type to put them on for political reasons (like the possible reason for the Harrenhal tourney). Note that there are private and public betrothals, we have examples of both in the books. He may have been seeking a private one in 272A.

 

Yes, you are correct, I mixed up the the date of the courts year+ long move to CR after Tytos' death which occurred in 267 not to 277, thank you for the correction.

 

I did not say he wanted to wed Joanna, I mentioned his off color joke about marrying the wrong woman. His marriage to Rhaella was purely driven by his fathers wishes, he retained a roaming eye post marriage and we have no clue as to his own feelings on a valyrian blood line requirement in his own spouse, never mind his son's spouse. We know he had focused much of his madness and paranoia on Tywin, which leads me to believe that an avoidance of a match with Cersei was of utmost importance, she could have been a cousin to Rhaegar and he would have refused so long as her father was Tywin.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
I stated that it was arguable. Tywin sponsored two tournaments that we are aware of, 272AC in KL (Aerys II anniversary) and 276AC in CR at which he openly proposed the match. I see no other reason for Tywin to sponsor a tourney in 272AC if he did not have some ulterior motive, since the relationship between Tywin and Aerys was already headed down hill at that time. Tourney's are put on not just a celebrations, they are demonstrations of wealth, social standing and put on for political reasons, if you look at Robert he put them on as demonstrations of wealth and for the social standing, Tywin on the the other hand strikes me as the type to put them on for political reasons (like the possible reason for the Harrenhal tourney). Note that there are private and public betrothals, we have examples of both in the books. He may have been seeking a private one in 272A.

IIRC, Aerys sponsered the tourney in 272 AC. Aerys wanted to celebrate his tenth year on the throne.

Chronological order is only true on a per character perspective (for example all the Bran chapters occur in order).
 
The chapter order in the book is not always chronologically accurate, there are overlaps between books and the prologues and epilogues may occur after or before other chapters.
 
One good example is right at the start of GToT. Daenerys I and II happen before the prologue and Bran I, then they are in chronological order until Jon II, then things get shuffled out of order again chronological or due to travel times. Due to story telling, remote chapters (Daenerys in this example) tend to occur close to the chapters where the others hear of the remote events.
 

Daenerys I and II don't happen before the prologue, most likely. The prologue, IIRC, takes place in the first half of 297 AC. In Dany I, she has been living with Illyrio for almost half a year, while she leaves Pentos after having lived there for 'half a year'. The time between Dany I and II isn't that much. Dany begins to travel, and notices she is pregnant after quite a travel distance, yet, still has some two months to go until the ceremony at Vaes Dothrak.

So while Dany might have arrive at Ilyrio's around the time of the prologue, Dany I and II seem to take place around late 297/ early 298 AC, and not early 297 AC.

The first few Ironborn chapters in affc take place in 299 AC, whilst the other storylines already are in 300 AC. Then there is one chapter, IIRC., where it can't be said with certainty, and then begin the ironborn chapters that are certain to take place in 300 AC.

[Roddy Darwin]

 

we have no clue as to his own feelings on a valyrian blood line requirement in his own spouse, never mind his son's spouse. We know he had focused much of his madness and paranoia on Tywin, which leads me to believe that an avoidance of a match with Cersei was of utmost importance, she could have been a cousin to Rhaegar and he would have refused so long as her father was Tywin.

 

I'm sorry, but I still disagree.

It makes absolutely no sense that Aerys would actively do anything to avoid a match with Cersei. He's the King, he's demonstrated that he will do whatever he wants no matter what Tywin thinks or says, so if he doesn't want the match to happen, it just won't. No need to rush Rhaegar's marriage because of that or anything.

 

As to the bolded part, we do have clues. I named three a few posts back.

 

If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different.

aSoS, Dany IV

 

So, okay, Viserys isn't the most reliable source and whatnot, but still, daddy's boy seemed pretty sure daddy would have gone with the old Valyrian custom if he could.

 

The king—the old king, Aerys II Targaryen, who had not been quite so mad in those days—had sent his lordship to seek a bride for Prince Rhaegar, who had no sisters to wed.

aCoK, prologue

 

That's Cressen thinking. Steffon's maester.

 

So, okay, there are several precedents for Targs not marrying their siblings as first choice, and according to you, Aerys wasn't even happy about having been made to do so, but let's pretend his really, really wanting to marry Rhaegar to a sister he didn't have has nothing to do with blood.

 

In 278 AC, the king sent Lord Steffon across the narrow sea on a mission to Old Volantis, to seek a suitable bride for Prince Rhaegar, "a maid of noble birth from an old Valyrian bloodline."

The World of Ice and Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

 

That's Maester Yandel, quoting Aerys himself, explicitly stating he wanted Rhaegar to marry a girl with Valyrian blood.

 

 

 

But I dunno, maybe there are more clues pointing to the Mad King of the Seven Kingdoms rushing to marry his son to a random Dornish girl because he was scared of Cersei?

[Dragonsmurf]

Shouldn't Slaver's bay be renamed after Dany's conquest and the abolish of slavery? To something like "Daenerys' bay"?

[spoon89]

IIRC, Aerys sponsered the tourney in 272 AC. Aerys wanted to celebrate his tenth year on the throne.

 

I beg to differ.

 

TWoFaI: The Fall of the Dragons

This is known: The tourney was first announced by Walter Whent, Lord of Harrenhal, late in the year 280 AC, not long after a visit from his younger brother, Ser Oswell Whent, a knight of the Kingsguard. That this would be an event of unrivaled magnificence was clear from the first, for Lord Whent was offering prizes thrice as large as those given at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II's tenth year upon the Iron Throne.

 

It is a misprint that the the 272AC tourney was held at Lannisport and not at Kings Landing.

 

 

Daenerys I and II don't happen before the prologue, most likely. The prologue, IIRC, takes place in the first half of 297 AC. In Dany I, she has been living with Illyrio for almost half a year, while she leaves Pentos after having lived there for 'half a year'. The time between Dany I and II isn't that much. Dany begins to travel, and notices she is pregnant after quite a travel distance, yet, still has some two months to go until the ceremony at Vaes Dothrak.

So while Dany might have arrive at Ilyrio's around the time of the prologue, Dany I and II seem to take place around late 297/ early 298 AC, and not early 297 AC.

 

 Correct, Daenerys I and II happen in rather quick succession (likely in the fourth quarter of 297) and there is a big gap between them and Daenerys III. It begins at the western edge of the Dothraki Sea and covers a lot of time itself  and ends with Dany's announcement that she knows she pregnant and has turned fourteen (2nd quarter of 298).

 

Ser Waymar's ranging was eight or nine days hard ride (hard ride can mean riding your horse hard or a difficult and slow ride due to terrain which I favor due to the terrain hilly terrain where it takes place) from the Wall (which the context they as speaking implies Castle Black since they mention they had tracked the raiders northwest of the wall) when the prologue occurs. Will and Ser Waymar had gone ahead on foot and left Gared with the horses, so Gared was not on foot between the Others attack on Will and Ser Waymar. We don't know how much much Gared saw, how he got south of the Wall unobserved (black gate possibly?) or if he were mounted for some time south of the Wall. We do know he was out of his mind and Ned was "unable to reach him" during Bran I, so I doubt he was rational, careful and pacing himself when traveling. Cat tells Ned about Jon Arryn's death and Roberts imminent arrival upon his return to Winterfell in Catelyn (prologue and Bran I occurred in 1st quarter 298)

 

Robert receives word of Dany's wedding in Eddard II from Varys, via a rider. Robert tells Ned that Jorah is spying for them in Essos. We don't know it at the time, but Varys knew of Dany's whereabouts and was aware of the wedding well ahead of everyone else in Westeros and sat on the information. It's likely that Varys waited to send word for as long as possible (ie. waited for littlebirds to hear the first talk about the wedding in Pentos at the docks in KL and immediately sends the message) before sending the message to Robert about the wedding, and chose to send it by rider, (the slowest method of getting a message to Robert). If he wanted to get it to Wintefell quickly without use of a raven, he could have sent the messenger by ship to White Harbor and messenger could the quickly ride to Winterfell (the reverse of Cat's route to beat Ned to KL). We know that Varys uses the flow and timing of information as a means of manipulation, he had to tell Robert before Robert heard from other sources to insure he looks loyal to the crown, but we also know that delaying the delivery of the information works to Varys' advantage. Roberts arrival from KL and departure to KL both occur in the (2nd quarter)

 

Robert and Ned arrive in KL in the third quarter and then they get word of the pregnancy (likely passed via a trader contacted by Jorah in Vaes Dothrak) during the fourth quarter of 298, which also means that the attempt on Dany by the poisoner in that same quarter is likely a plot by Illyrio to get Drogo fired up to head to Westeros and not a plot launched by Robert and the council (unless Jorah was able to get a message back to Pentos while crossing the Dothraki Sea which would make it possible the council got the news in the third quarter).

 

Joffreys name day is early in the year (1st quarter). Jon Arryn died a fortnight after his twelfth birthday tourney, Ned was executed prior to his during his thirteenth name day and his thirteenth name day tourney occurs during the Wot5K at the time the comet is visible. At the purple wedding he was still thirteen and that occurred on the first day on the new century (300AC).

[Dan slayer of hot pies]

do we know if a greyjoy has ever taken the black?

[CJ McLannister]

Shouldn't Slaver's bay be renamed after Dany's conquest and the abolish of slavery? To something like "Daenerys' bay"?

Let's wait and see how quickly it gets back to slavery before we go renaming it.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

do we know if a greyjoy has ever taken the black?

I don't think there ever was a mention of a Greyjoy taking the black. But I do believe it is quite likely actually

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
I beg to differ.
 
TWoFaI: The Fall of the Dragons
This is known: The tourney was first announced by Walter Whent, Lord of Harrenhal, late in the year 280 AC, not long after a visit from his younger brother, Ser Oswell Whent, a knight of the Kingsguard. That this would be an event of unrivaled magnificence was clear from the first, for Lord Whent was offering prizes thrice as large as those given at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II's tenth year upon the Iron Throne.
 
It is a misprint that the the 272AC tourney was held at Lannisport and not at Kings Landing.
 

ah, I see how you got there.

We don't know how much of that is a misprint. Lannisport was clearly in 276 AC, Aerys' celebration in 272 in KL.

It is my guess that the tourney of 276 AC was meant. The Lannisport Tourney, which would make more sense, as it was both most recent, and as well there is an emphasise placed on it having been a 'great' tourney, displaying all the 'wealth and power' of House Lannister. The KL tourney in 272 did neither.

In addition, what right would Tywin have had to hold a tourney in KL..? that's another man's seat.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
Correct, Daenerys I and II happen in rather quick succession (likely in the fourth quarter of 297) and there is a big gap between them and Daenerys III. It begins at the western edge of the Dothraki Sea and covers a lot of time itself  and ends with Dany's announcement that she knows she pregnant and has turned fourteen (2nd quarter of 298).
 
Ser Waymar's ranging was eight or nine days hard ride (hard ride can mean riding your horse hard or a difficult and slow ride due to terrain which I favor due to the terrain hilly terrain where it takes place) from the Wall (which the context they as speaking implies Castle Black since they mention they had tracked the raiders northwest of the wall) when the prologue occurs. Will and Ser Waymar had gone ahead on foot and left Gared with the horses, so Gared was not on foot between the Others attack on Will and Ser Waymar. We don't know how much much Gared saw, how he got south of the Wall unobserved (black gate possibly?) or if he were mounted for some time south of the Wall. We do know he was out of his mind and Ned was "unable to reach him" during Bran I, so I doubt he was rational, careful and pacing himself when traveling. Cat tells Ned about Jon Arryn's death and Roberts imminent arrival upon his return to Winterfell in Catelyn (prologue and Bran I occurred in 1st quarter 298)
 
Robert receives word of Dany's wedding in Eddard II from Varys, via a rider. Robert tells Ned that Jorah is spying for them in Essos. We don't know it at the time, but Varys knew of Dany's whereabouts and was aware of the wedding well ahead of everyone else in Westeros and sat on the information. It's likely that Varys waited to send word for as long as possible (ie. waited for littlebirds to hear the first talk about the wedding in Pentos at the docks in KL and immediately sends the message) before sending the message to Robert about the wedding, and chose to send it by rider, (the slowest method of getting a message to Robert). If he wanted to get it to Wintefell quickly without use of a raven, he could have sent the messenger by ship to White Harbor and messenger could the quickly ride to Winterfell (the reverse of Cat's route to beat Ned to KL). We know that Varys uses the flow and timing of information as a means of manipulation, he had to tell Robert before Robert heard from other sources to insure he looks loyal to the crown, but we also know that delaying the delivery of the information works to Varys' advantage. Roberts arrival from KL and departure to KL both occur in the (2nd quarter)
 
Robert and Ned arrive in KL in the third quarter and then they get word of the pregnancy (likely passed via a trader contacted by Jorah in Vaes Dothrak) during the fourth quarter of 298, which also means that the attempt on Dany by the poisoner in that same quarter is likely a plot by Illyrio to get Drogo fired up to head to Westeros and not a plot launched by Robert and the council (unless Jorah was able to get a message back to Pentos while crossing the Dothraki Sea which would make it possible the council got the news in the third quarter).
 
Joffreys name day is early in the year (1st quarter). Jon Arryn died a fortnight after his twelfth birthday tourney, Ned was executed prior to his during his thirteenth name day and his thirteenth name day tourney occurs during the Wot5K at the time the comet is visible. At the purple wedding he was still thirteen and that occurred on the first day on the new century (300AC).

None of this was my point ;)

My point was that Dany I and II do not take place around the time of the prologue. The prologue takes place much earlier. As to how Gared got south... He was an experienced ranger, he would have known of ways (the Gorge, for example). His experience also helped him to remain uncaught for such a long time, yet in the end, it wasn't enough.