Red Wedding Verdict – Freys are Not Guilty of Violating Guest Right

[Jason Stark Wolfmen]

You guys are so funny. I think that even Walder Frey himself would say he didn't break the guest right

[melx]

OP makes great point :agree:

That would only matter if the rest of Westeros gave a toss about the Freys' rules. Which they don't.

King who lost the north sure didn't care about the Freys' rules & Freys in general.....

in hindsight maybe not caring wasn't the best option for him :cool4:

[Lady Blackmont]

Ahhhhh...

The universal constant, Robb hate. How refreshing.

[melx]

Ahhhhh...

The universal constant, Robb hate. How refreshing.

no

Robb is one of my favorite characters but he did make huge mistake (as almost all do in these books)

[idio]

Robb utterly misunderstood the fickle and vengeful nature of Walder despite his constant warnings from Cat, that was his fundamental miscalculation. Even with those warnings, Cat herself underestimated Walder's venom toward his higher lords. Frey is a venomous and bitter man who has is attempting to climb the socio-political latter and he's felt every slight upon his house and taken them all to heart. That unforgiving nature coupled with his grasping, climbing ambitious disposition is what Robb was naive of, while he was so wrapped up in his own campaign. Some other lords would have tried again had Robb hurt the alliance, but the vile Frey nature coupled with overtures from Tywin were enough to secure Robb's unfortunate fate.

[melx]

man who has is attempting to climb the socio-political latter and he's felt every slight upon his house and taken them all to heart. That unforgiving nature coupled with his grasping, climbing ambitious disposition is what Robb was naive of, while he was so wrapped up in his own campaign.

that description can be used in case of Hoster Tully too

"Hoster Tully the man who has is attempting to climb the socio-political latter and he's felt every slight upon his house and taken them all to heart. That unforgiving nature coupled with his grasping, climbing ambitious disposition is what the king Aerys II Targaryen was naive of, while he was so wrapped up in his own campaign."

one part still do not fit: while Robb has wronged Freys(took everything-gave nothing) ,Targaryens were always more than generous with Tullys.....

i guess if treason results with single dead stark then its the worst thing ever (even "gods" can not forgive - nonsense) but if treason results with several death Targaryens(children included) its ok and "made righteous in the sight of gods"

[Lady Sharya]

So if Robb said mayhaps Walder wouldn't have killed him?

Well given our progressive understanding of how the game went, Robb was the in-game LofC so he needed to get knocked off the peverbial log so Walder or Roose could gain the status, haha. Saying mayhaps wouldn't have saved him.

.

I see it more as the game was a natural outgrowth of the reality of the crossing and not the other way around. That's just how the crossing works, and has for hundreds of years. Frey didn't need to make a snide and deadly homage to the game: his life and his ancestral legacy is that game.

I like the way you put this. The game definitely sprang from the narrow world of the Twins at the Crossing.

Ahhhhh...The universal constant, Robb hate. How refreshing.

This comes from left field...

Robb utterly misunderstood the fickle and vengeful nature of Walder despite his constant warnings from Cat, that was his fundamental miscalculation. Even with those warnings, Cat herself underestimated Walder's venom toward his higher lords. Frey is a venomous and bitter man who has is attempting to climb the socio-political latter and he's felt every slight upon his house and taken them all to heart. That unforgiving nature coupled with his grasping, climbing ambitious disposition is what Robb was naive of, while he was so wrapped up in his own campaign. Some other lords would have tried again had Robb hurt the alliance, but the vile Frey nature coupled with overtures from Tywin were enough to secure Robb's unfortunate fate.

Again, well put. The Tullys needed to reevaluate Frey disposition & entitlement long ago.

i guess if treason results with single dead stark then its the worst thing ever (even "gods" can not forgive - nonsense) but if treason results with several death Targaryens(children included) its ok and "made righteous in the sight of gods"

Really? A "single dead stark"...??? Several dead Targs including children is ok? Idk what story you're reading, but this is a thread about the Crossing Game in A Song of Ice and Fire.

[melx]

Really? A "single dead stark"...??? Several dead Targs including children is ok?

you as stark-fanboy(mayhaps "lone wolf" according to avatar) seems for some reason not to care about fact that treachery(allegedly in Frey case) ls not only when it`s done to starks.Hoster tully has committed the greatest treachery ever in ASOIAF......... Freys were tricked by starks while tully were never mistreated by Targaryens.

[Lady Sharya]

you as stark-fanboy(mayhaps "lone wolf" according to avatar) seems for some reason not to care about fact that treachery(allegedly in Frey case) ls not only when it`s done to starks.Hoster tully has committed the greatest treachery ever in ASOIAF......... Freys were tricked by starks while tully were never mistreated by Targaryens.

Hah, idk what you're talking about. A Stark-fanboy? Typing a stupid name years ago doesn't make me anything except too lazy to change it. You certainly won't find any evidence in anything I've ever written.

If you would like to start a thread that actually discusses Hoster Tully, Targaryens, biases in perceptions of treachery, Freys being tricked by Starks, ect., I would be happy to post my opinions so you may know what I think on those subjects.

Let's just stick to the Game of the Crossing in here though.

[Dorian Martell]

The conclusion in the OP was wrong, but his/her premise was true. The parallels are there, and in Frey warped-mentality, Robb can be seen to have lost the game fair &square. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

You're a smart guy, could there be any more foreshadowing for the rest of the story? Is Roose playing somehow? Is Little Walder's murder connected?

There are other hints, like when Arya is at Harrenhal, she is talking to one of the frey boys who starts to cry and says that he has been dishonored and that he will never marry a princess. There is Roose hunting Wolves just to name a few.

[Evolett]

I've added some of the ff. text to the OP and am posting this here as well for those who read the OP earlier.

Since posting this, there's been a general concensus that the Freys remain guilty of violating Guest Right in the eyes of gods and men. That may be so but there has been no official punishment forthcoming so far. First of all, there is the problem regarding the law itself - is Guest Right observed only as a tradition or is it a law entrenched in the legislature of the Seven Kingdoms? We've seen both Kings and Lords pronounce judgement and mete out punishment in cases of treason, desertion and other clear cut minor crimes - and very swiftly at that. Ned immediately saw that the King's justice was done when Gared was caught for deserting the Watch.

We can argue that since Tywin was part of the plot, he had no interest in bringing the Freys to trial. But what about the gods? The High Sparrow, representing the Faith of the Seven, has taken on the role of actively handling cases as well. Perhaps he will see to justice that both readers and book characters crave at some point?

I see Frey's 'Crossing Game' as an attempt to trick both the Starks and the Gods. Mythology offers many examples of this kind of treachery. Gods tricking mortals, mortals tricking Gods, the wroth of the Gods etc. We even have a comparable example in the narrative itself, offered by the legend of the Grey King who tricked the Storm God into igniting a tree so that the fire could be harnessed by man.

Reading so much into the word 'mayhaps' may appear silly to some. Not to me. The author often uses certain keywords to lay a trail of breadcrumbs, which if we are observant, lead to further discoveries and twists in the story.

The Frey boy Arya talks to is probably the one promised to Arya herself as part of the crossing deal. He now feels cheated out of his princess. If I remember correctly, his lament comes when the news of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling reaches Harrenhal. It's odd that the boy already knows that he will never marry the princess because Robb's marriage to Jeyne should not automatically mean that the boy's marriage pact is null and void as well. This suggests that the Frey's never meant to accept an apology at all and that the desire for vengeance was immediately expressed by all in charge. One could even go further and speculate that the Frey's, together with Bolton, had planned to murder Robb all along. Frey's stalling and Roose's careful deployment of his men out of harm's way during the war effort certainly gives us cause to question their motives right from the beginning.

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

I have difficulty believing that the silly rules of the Lord of the Crossing game supercedes the ancient tradition of guest rights.

In Walder Frey's mind they do

[Victor227]

...How long has the 'Lord of the Crossing' game been around now anyway?

I always got the impression that it was a fairly recent invention, given Lord Walder's ridiculously long life and extensive family, not to mention his habit of saying 'mayhaps' being played upon.It seems like a child's introduction to the more convoluted family politics of the Freys, what with everyone apparently being able to trace their place in the line of succession

[LmL]

Regardless of the moral culpability issue, I think Evolett's analysis comparing the game played in the godswood to the interactions with Walder and Robb are terrific and spot on. I think there is a bit of a semantic trap here - remember, there is no court of Westeros. What we are really taking about is two things : Walder's justification of the act, and the Old Gods view of the act. Of course, we know the Old Gods are not some nebulous thing, they are a specific nebulous thing - the collective consciousness of the greenseers, piloted by Bloodraven and now Branraven. It's up to them if they want to spend time and energy on Walder Frey, and they probably don't care about the rules of the crossing - so they will take revenge or not, as is their wont. Perosnally, Ithink they have bigger fish to fry, so the vengeance on the Freys will be meted out by people who hate them - the remnants of the BwB + the Blackfish, Stoneheart or whoever takes her place, Arya, Northmen like Wyman Manderly, etc. I expect the Freys may start eating their own when Walder dies in an internecine power struggle. One way or another, I do think the twin towers will fall, so to speak, and revenge will be had.

That said, I do think there was intent on Martin's end to think about these rules. The crossing is kind of symbolic of all crossings; think the river styx, crossing the Rubricon, things like that. It is the gateway between north and south. The rules and customs are always very important in such circumstances, and it really seems as though George has depicted the events at the Twins in just this fashion. So, to me, it's not a question of moral culpability - the Freys are murderers, they will get what is coming to them - but a question of crossing the river. Dealing with the ferryman. Paying the toll. Playing by the rules of the game. Robb didn't, and so he lost.

I think Evolett's analysis clearly shows that Martin set out the rules of the game very intentionally, and I think Evolett has explained them precisely. :thumbsup: So nice work, Evolett.

[LmL]

snip

I see Frey's 'Crossing Game' as an attempt to trick both the Starks and the Gods. Mythology offers many examples of this kind of treachery. Gods tricking mortals, mortals tricking Gods, the wroth of the Gods etc. We even have a comparable example in the narrative itself, offered by the legend of the Grey King who tricked the Storm God into igniting a tree so that the fire could be harnessed by man.

:agree:

Reading so much into the word 'mayhaps' may appear silly to some. Not to me. The author often uses certain keywords to lay a trail of breadcrumbs, which if we are observant, lead to further discoveries and twists in the story.

:agree:

The Frey boy Arya talks to is probably the one promised to Arya herself as part of the crossing deal. He now feels cheated out of his princess. If I remember correctly, his lament comes when the news of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling reaches Harrenhal. It's odd that the boy already knows that he will never marry the princess because Robb's marriage to Jeyne should not automatically mean that the boy's marriage pact is null and void as well. This suggests that the Frey's never meant to accept an apology at all and that the desire for vengeance was immediately expressed by all in charge. One could even go further and speculate that the Frey's, together with Bolton, had planned to murder Robb all along. Frey's stalling and Roose's careful deployment of his men out of harm's way during the war effort certainly gives us cause to question their motives right from the beginning.

Yes, I've always thought this. There is also evidence that the Westerlings, Jeyne included, planned for jeyne to seduce and trick Robb from the moment their castle was surrounded and about to fall. Robb took an arrow wound to the leg as they were storming the castle, or right before they gave up the castle, I forget which. Perhaps it was a stray arrow, but right around the chapter where we learn all of this info, we hear a lot of talk from Anguy about the accuracy of archery in general, and the suggestion is there that Robb being shit so close tot he castle, right before capitulation, may have been a specific attempt to wound. Then, we have Sybil Spicer, with her connections to magic, "Maegi the Frog," etc. We know from Mel that there are potions of seduction. Whatthe hell happened to Robb that he betrayed his oath and sold out his kingdom in one night? Is he really THAT niece? I mean, maybe, maybe. But there's enough circumstantial evidence to at least wonder if that whole thing wasn't a trap, a way for the Westerlings to save their house and get into Tywin's good graces. If they had shot and killed Robb, the Northman would have destroyed their castle, you know? They would have been crushed. But by seducing Robb and playing his ally, all the while Jeyne's mother giving Jeyne moon tea...

The Red Wedding was far more effective that killing Robb alone at the Crag would have been. The Red Wedding destroyed the entire army, command structure included.

[Eddy of the Godswood]

In Walder Frey's mind they do

No, in Walder Frey's mind they don't. He doesn't give two shits about Guest Right, he's a greedy little prick who wants to be Lord of the Riverlands.

Maybe higher lords were wrong, making fun of the Twins and Walder and so forth, but last time I checked that doesn't give you the right to murder their family.

What the hell is all this talk of Hoster Tully being a self righteous sociopath with no moral conscience?

Half the Targaryens were mad, his daughter's fiancee was strangled, the next fiancee threatened with death, and Aerys burning people left and right. Wouldn't that have put an wrinkle in your surcoat?

[Marten]

As much as I would love for the rules of crossing the most important bridge in the Riverlands to be based upon saying "mayhaps" at the right time, it really would make more sense if Lord Frey were joking about the "mayhaps"-part. He obviously knows the rules of the children's game, and is having fun with Rob.