Stego Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Article is Here. Thoughts? Seems like it could be interesting, at least while waiting for Morgan to write another Kovacs novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztemhead Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 I'm all for it. He may truly be something new under the Fantasy sun. I need to pick up the other Takeshi Kovacs novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Doran Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Oh man. Another SF author bends to publisher pressure. Is there really such a hunger for mediocre campbellian exposition in feudal sword&sorc settings? Feh. Well, given the disaster that was _Market Forces_, perhaps Morgan is spent as a writer of respectable fiction and need to take a long break in extruded fantasy product land. And given the sort of quote we've get, I wouldn't get my hopes up for anything above mediocre either: I just fancied having a crack at old-school sword and sorcery, using some of the technique and tone I've been deploying in my Kovacs novels. ... I'd been talking a good fight about fantasy noir for a while now, about the idea of ripping apart the Tolkienesque decor to focus on the ugly cracks and stains behind, and it just finally seemed time to put my pen where my mouth is." Uh huh. Cuz nobody does noir and gritty, my boy Morgan. It's all Disney-Tolkien techniocolor pastisches, wating for you to show them how to be the DARKPEN OF THE NIGHT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Sounds interesting. I hope I writes something from the POV of an "evil" charakter there are too few such books imho. Lot's of violence with a little bit sex in it and I'm happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted November 26, 2005 Author Share Posted November 26, 2005 A bit too negative, Doran. Market Forces was no disaster. I quite enjoyed it. I also do not believe he bowed to any pressure. Morgan likes to try different things, as is evident with his work for Marvel Comics. After speaking with him a few weeks ago, I was surprised to find out how much he enjoys all sorts of speculative fiction, not just cracking SciFi stories. In fact, he enjoys all sorts of fiction, and is a fan of mysteries and westerns as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Doran Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Possibly a tad negative, yeah. I'm just really, really tired of seeing SF writers turn to fantasy. Yes, yes, I know fantasy sells, but damnit, there just ain't enough decent SF coming out these days to begin with. We'll have to agree to disagree over _MF_. I thought it was like a slap in the face in terms of quality after _Altered Carbon_ and _Woken Furies_. And I really don't find that quote reassuring. Morgan thinks the fantasy genre lacks for gritty noir? Perhaps someone should send ASOIAF his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Possibly a tad negative, yeah. I'm just really, really tired of seeing SF writers turn to fantasy. Yes, yes, I know fantasy sells, but damnit, there just ain't enough decent SF coming out these days to begin with. We'll have to agree to disagree over _MF_. I thought it was like a slap in the face in terms of quality after _Altered Carbon_ and _Woken Furies_. And I really don't find that quote reassuring. Morgan thinks the fantasy genre lacks for gritty noir? Perhaps someone should send ASOIAF his way. Morgan would most likely descripe things like rape and torture with much more in detail than GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 And I really don't find that quote reassuring. Morgan thinks the fantasy genre lacks for gritty noir? Perhaps someone should send ASOIAF his way. I think he probably already realises that since he says (in the very next paragraph after the one you quoted: "This isn't some kind of cutting edge I'm trying to claim," he said. "There are plenty of very fine fantasy writers breaking new ground out there (Jeff VanderMeer, Steph Swainston, China Mieville, Kelly Link and Margo Lanagan, to name but a few of the best) and plenty of others who have already profaned the Tolkienesque template with more robust contemporary attitudes ([such as] Glen Cook's Black Company books). This is not a whole new sub-genre platform or radical departure from anything. It's just me taking the fantasy genre for a spin, seeing what I can do with it." Personally, I think it might be a good idea for him to do something a bit different to his previous books - after three Kovacs books (and the similar-in-places Market Forces) it was starting to get slightly formulaic, it was still good but I felt we were learning less new stuff about Kovacs and his world in each successive book (which is pretty much inevitable, admittedly). A change of genre might be good, as long as he doesn't just write a Takeshi Kovacs book in a different setting (although it would probably still be quite fun if he did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztemhead Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 I just want to say that I'm 10 pages in to Woken Furies, and I'm in love with it already. Shut off the phone, shut down the comp; I'll be reading the rest of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted November 26, 2005 Author Share Posted November 26, 2005 Hey Doran, I think there's a lot of great science fiction coming out these days, and I point to people like Charlie Stross, Iain M Banks, Alistair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, Ian McDonald, the aforementioned Richard Morgan, Vernor Vinge, Kim Stanley Robinson, Greg Bear, Robert Sawyer and Peter Hamilton to prove my point. Goddamn, a lot of these guys are from the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 A bit too negative, Doran. Market Forces was no disaster. I quite enjoyed it. I didn't hate MF with a passion like Doran, but IMHO it was decidedly mediorce, preachy and just didn't hold together or make sense. It was also entirely predictable - basically, it was clear from the first chapter how it would go. The only source of uncertainity stemmed from very entrenched genre cliches and a forlorn hope that it couldn't be as straightforward as it seemed. Unfortunately, it was. I read MF and Knife of Dreams back to back and they seemed of similar quality to me - which is a giant step down for Morgan, IMHO. Regarding his fantasy series, I also feel certain misgivings. Morgan likes his protagonists to be complete badasses, able to scythe through opposition by the dozens if not hundreds, which is much more believable in a sci-fi setting with all the high tech stuff, IMHO. Also, his interesting, unusual and relatively well thought-through vision of the future noir in the Kovacs novels contributed very strongly to their appeal. Take that away, like in MF, and what remains is rather unsatisfactory. Etc. Having said that, it could be interesting if he could inject some of the noirness and edginess of his Kovacs novels into fantasy. I'd kill for a fantasy book that is written from the POV of a villain, or ends in an unexpected way - various shades of tragedy. Or maybe antagonists winning and it turning out to be the best possible outcome. But from Morgan's own words it seems fairly unlikely - he doesn't really intend to rock the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Regarding his fantasy series, I also feel certain misgivings. Morgan likes his protagonists to be complete badasses, able to scythe through opposition by the dozens if not hundreds, which is much more believable in a sci-fi setting with all the high tech stuff, IMHO. There are countless fantasy books in which the heroes scythe through enemies. Especially in books with powerful magic. ::casts fireball!:: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Unfortunately, it was. I read MF and Knife of Dreams back to back and they seemed of similar quality to me - which is a giant step down for Morgan, IMHO. ISTR hearing that Market Forces (or some version of it) was written before "Altered Carbon" was, which might explain why it isn't as good if it was effectively the first novel Morgan wrote. There are countless fantasy books in which the heroes scythe through enemies. Especially in books with powerful magic. ::casts fireball!:: Certainly nobody told Steven Erikson that you can't write fantasy books where the heroes scythe through enemies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted November 27, 2005 Author Share Posted November 27, 2005 Market Forces was written originally as a screenplay, and he pieced the novel together from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaco Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Seems like it could be interesting, at least while waiting for Morgan to write another Kovacs novel. Sounds very cool. Definitely something I'll be looking forward to. Uh huh. Cuz nobody does noir and gritty, my boy Morgan. It's all Disney-Tolkien techniocolor pastisches, wating for you to show them how to be the DARKPEN OF THE NIGHT! Eh, Morgan makes a point of saying that he's not alone, so I dunno where that's coming from. Market Forces was no disaster. I quite enjoyed it. Agreed. I made the mistake of putting off reading MF for awhile after seeing some negative comments on it on the old board. I didn't like it as much as the Kovacs books, but like it I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanrn Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Jeff VanderMeer, Steph Swainston,Kelly Link and Margo Lanagan hmmm ok who in the name of hell are thoose 4 authors? Anyway Half me says YES need more Gritty Fantasy and the other says NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO more to get in the way of more KOVACS. Anyway Kovacs scythes through his opponents cause he attacks first and doesn't let up and the enemy is not expecting this. Hence alot of dead people. Kovacs with sword in medieval setting would rock, kinda like Sandor on PCP. Look forward to the eventually release of his book after Black Man and Black Widow Things They Say about Her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted November 27, 2005 Author Share Posted November 27, 2005 Who are VanderMeer, Link, Swainston, and Lanagan? I'll pretend you just woke from a coma...... Kelly Link is the best short fantasist writing these days. Her latest collection, Magic for Beginners, is sublime. Jeff VanderMeer is a very good writer. He's grown on me, despite his epic condescencion for those with different opinions than him. City of Saints and Madmen is a wonderful and thought-provoking work. (Just don't read his non-fiction. He's a typical liberal artist type.) Steph Swainston writes fantasy in the New Weird type.......like China Mieville or Ian MacLeod. Margo Lanagan is the 'Next Big Thing' in fantay right now. She won 2 world fantasy awards earlier this month, and her collection 'Black Juice' is phenomenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Doran Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Hey Doran, I think there's a lot of great science fiction coming out these days, and I point to people like Charlie Stross, Iain M Banks, Alistair Reynolds, Ken MacLeod, Ian McDonald, the aforementioned Richard Morgan, Vernor Vinge, Kim Stanley Robinson, Greg Bear, Robert Sawyer and Peter Hamilton to prove my point. Unfortunately, I can split that list in to categories - the good writers and the prolific ones... Really, given the tsunami of people who feel the world needs another hot chick in chainmail with Dark Secrets and a Funny Magical Sidekick fighting against the Evil Powers of Total Corruption while being interestingly conflicted and having lots and lots of Hot Sex and Hotter Violence, I'd rather see the rather see the few people who have proven they can write decent SF to stay with that. Not that I can blame anyone who doesn't - money talks. But I sure don't have to like it. Goddamn, a lot of these guys are from the UK. Yeah, but we can take some comfort from the fact that the best guy on your list is American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needle Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Unfortunately, I can split that list in to categories - the good writers and the prolific ones... Really, given the tsunami of people who feel the world needs another hot chick in chainmail with Dark Secrets and a Funny Magical Sidekick fighting against the Evil Powers of Total Corruption while being interestingly conflicted and having lots and lots of Hot Sex and Hotter Violence, I'd rather see the rather see the few people who have proven they can write decent SF to stay with that. Not that I can blame anyone who doesn't - money talks. But I sure don't have to like it. Yeah, but we can take some comfort from the fact that the best guy on your list is American. Dude, you are aware this a message board based around a fantasy writer, right? And WE are not all American so we can't all take comfort from that ...though I do agree Vinge is the best on that list, just a shame he ain't exactly prolific. I'll be interested to see what morgan comes up with. I thought the Kovacs stuff got progressively worse, maybe a new genre will give him something to chew on and bring the quality back up. Stego says : (Just don't read his non-fiction. He's a typical liberal artist type. oy! Muddy boy! what's wrong with liberal artist types? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Dude, you are aware this a message board based around a fantasy writer, right? Not only that, it's a meesage board based around a science fiction writer who then switched to writing fantasy Seriously, I can see his point a bit - there do seem to be slightly more good fantasy authors around than good science fiction authors at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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