Illogical events in both show and books.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
You can't compare Barristan's mission to this. Barristan's rescue mission was one person sneaking into a town (a town mind you, not a dedicated military operation) and then two people sneaking out. They're not actually doing anything other than getting themselves in and out. And maybe killing a couple guys. Ramsay and his twenty men are disabling an entire army. They've got to light fires all over the camp, and then escape from that area without anyone spotting them, even though they've just lit a huge beacon at their location. And we see from the overhead shot that the fires are coordinated to go off at pretty much the same time. How do you do that? You have no way to signal to your allies within the enemy camp. They're also disabling siege weaponry. You know, those things which are designed to withstand....well, a siege? They don't just have pins in them which you can pull out to collapse them. Then they're killing horses. Hundreds of them. Even assuming a fair amount of the horses got caught in the fire, it would be pretty hard to light a fire and get it big enough to kill hundreds of horses without the horses first running away (and making a lot of noise, alerting guards to your presence). So you've either got to devise some way to trap the horses, or...assassinate them? Hundreds of horses killed by twenty men? And with all of this, they've got to know where all this stuff is. They've got to know where Stannis keeps his supplies, his horses and his siege weaponries. You've got to find all this in the dark. They know the land? So what? It's a snowy field. At best they have some snow shoes to let them walk through it easier. But knowing the land doesn't mean they know the layout of Stannis camp.
 
And that's just the impossible logistics of how Ramsay managed to disable Stannis' army. Nothing to do with the decision Stannis comes to after. If this was possible we wouldn't have armies. We'd just have bands of twenty men sneaking about destroying entire enemy bases shirtless. 

That's another thing Bolton men don't know the land the north is bigger than france and stannis was on Stark or maybe umber land Bolton's aren't experts on random snowy field on Stark land.

[Khal Boner]

 

They're also disabling siege weaponry. You know, those things which are designed to withstand....well, a siege? 

 

That doesn't make any sense.

[Cas Stark]

I do find it odd that the threshold for the show seems to be that it "works" unless there is absolutely no possible explanation that can be invented to cover whatever the lapse was, and yet Arya, who fears her own family might not take her back, LOL, not automatically announcing herself to Roose is considered a plot hole/logic flaw on par with the idiotic rushed destruction of Stannis and his army.  And when finally backed against a wall and people have to admit the show made an actual error, it doesn't matter, the flaw isn't the show, but the viewer who points it out.  Funny.

[Khal Boner]

That's another thing Bolton men don't know the land the north is bigger than france and stannis was on Stark or maybe umber land Bolton's aren't experts on random snowy field on Stark land.

 

They live in the same harsh and cold environment. The North is very different from the south.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

 

You can't compare Barristan's mission to this. Barristan's rescue mission was one person sneaking into a town (a town mind you, not a dedicated military operation) and then two people sneaking out. They're not actually doing anything other than getting themselves in and out. And maybe killing a couple guys. Ramsay and his twenty men are disabling an entire army. They've got to light fires all over the camp, and then escape from that area without anyone spotting them, even though they've just lit a huge beacon at their location. And we see from the overhead shot that the fires are coordinated to go off at pretty much the same time. How do you do that? You have no way to signal to your allies within the enemy camp. They're also disabling siege weaponry. You know, those things which are designed to withstand....well, a siege? They don't just have pins in them which you can pull out to collapse them. Then they're killing horses. Hundreds of them. Even assuming a fair amount of the horses got caught in the fire, it would be pretty hard to light a fire and get it big enough to kill hundreds of horses without the horses first running away (and making a lot of noise, alerting guards to your presence). So you've either got to devise some way to trap the horses, or...assassinate them? Hundreds of horses killed by twenty men? And with all of this, they've got to know where all this stuff is. They've got to know where Stannis keeps his supplies, his horses and his siege weaponries. You've got to find all this in the dark. They know the land? So what? It's a snowy field. At best they have some snow shoes to let them walk through it easier. But knowing the land doesn't mean they know the layout of Stannis camp.

 

ETA: And then there's the guards. Stannis says that they are either sleeping or conspiring with the enemy and that seems like it must be the case. But...all the guards were asleep? That's an enormous coincidence. Or they were conspiring with the enemy? How? When do these guys get a chance to contact the Boltons? Ironically the books had a plot point (the Karstark betrayal) which actually could have explained this. But none of the northmen support Stannis. So maybe it was the sellswords? The Stormcrows were Bolton plants? How does Stannis even have sellswords? Did he hire them in Braavos (in which case they can't be Bolton forces) or the North? And why were all the important locations guarded by Sellswords?

 

And that's just the impossible logistics of how Ramsay managed to disable Stannis' army. Nothing to do with the decision Stannis comes to after. If this was possible we wouldn't have armies. We'd just have bands of twenty men sneaking about destroying entire enemy bases shirtless. 

'The immediate response to the news from Duskendale was shock, then outrage. There were those who urged a sudden assault upon the town to free the king and punish the rebels for this enormity. But Duskendale was surrounded by strong walls, and the Dun Fort, the ancient seat of House Darklyn, which overlooked the harbor, was even more formidable. Taking it by storm would be no easy task.'- From the world of Ice and Fire. Aerys was kept in the keep at Duskendale, not the town it was an old seat of kings. Barristen had to get in to a garrisoned Dun Fort, find the cell aerys was in, overpower however many guards were on the door, and then get out of a Garrisoned Dun Fort. Surely you have to acknowledge that is AT LEAST as improbable as 20 men getting into and armed camp. Again, please don't misunderstand me, I think the 20 men is bollocks as well, but the reason I created this thread is to show that there are also very similar situations in the world GRRM created, it will be interesting to see if the same posters who accuse people of blindly supporting the show and ignoring illogical plot lines can accept the ones in the book.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
They live in the same harsh and cold environment. The North is very different from the south.

And bolton land is different from stark land it be different I'd stannis was camped near the dreadfort or the men were Stark men at arms lead by a Stark (even then I'd call the scene fucking dumb but it's a bit more logical) but they weren't they were Bolton's who had never been near the field lead by ramsay a crazy shirtless man.

[protar]

'The immediate response to the news from Duskendale was shock, then outrage. There were those who urged a sudden assault upon the town to free the king and punish the rebels for this enormity. But Duskendale was surrounded by strong walls, and the Dun Fort, the ancient seat of House Darklyn, which overlooked the harbor, was even more formidable. Taking it by storm would be no easy task.'- From the world of Ice and Fire. Aerys was kept in the keep at Duskendale, not the town it was an old seat of kings. Barristen had to get in to a garrisoned Dun Fort, find the cell aerys was in, overpower however many guards were on the door, and then get out of a Garrisoned Dun Fort. Surely you have to acknowledge that is AT LEAST as improbable as 20 men getting into and armed camp. Again, please don't misunderstand me, I think the 20 men is bollocks as well, but the reason I created this thread is to show that there are also very similar situations in the world GRRM created, it will be interesting to see if the same posters who accuse people of blindly supporting the show and ignoring illogical plot lines can accept the ones in the book.

 

Well firstly it's not nearly so egregious as twenty men disabling an entire army. It's one man taking on, perhaps less then half a dozen men, versus twenty men "taking out" thousands. And then there's the fact that Barristan's rescue of Aerys ultimately isn't that important to the plot. And it's a past event so Martin gets more leeway for not going into specifics. Ramsay and his twenty good men is a huge plot point. It's the culmination of a main character's story arc. Less important events get more slack. One example IIRC is that according to the guy who worked out the timeline for the books, Lolly's pregnancy would have had to last only 7 months. But because it's such a tiny thing, and so inobvious it's no big deal leaving the audience to come up with an explanation.

[ViniciusMJ]

Well, being a plot hole or no, the Arya thing was fixed in the show by having Jaqen be a guy that can single-handedly slaughter a whole Lannister garrison to provide escape for three fellas, although being unable to avoid being caught by presumably the City Watch in King's Landing and then taken to serve in the Night's Watch.

[TepidHands]

What's wrong with a 7-month pregnancy? Hell, Gilly's baby is still a swaddling infant at age 3. It's like reverse SORAS, 

[Red Typer of Dorne]

 

Well firstly it's not nearly so egregious as twenty men disabling an entire army. It's one man taking on, perhaps less then half a dozen men, versus twenty men "taking out" thousands. And then there's the fact that Barristan's rescue of Aerys ultimately isn't that important to the plot. And it's a past event so Martin gets more leeway for not going into specifics. Ramsay and his twenty good men is a huge plot point. It's the culmination of a main character's story arc. Less important events get more slack. One example IIRC is that according to the guy who worked out the timeline for the books, Lolly's pregnancy would have had to last only 7 months. But because it's such a tiny thing, and so inobvious it's no big deal leaving the audience to come up with an explanation.

I'm not arguing the importance to the plot are equal, and actually neither have you, I'm arguing the acts are of a similar level of likeliness. Geaorge actually does give us some specifics which if anything make it even more unbelievable. The following is again from AWOIAF;

 

'The songs of Ser Barristan's daring rescue of the king are many, and, for a rarity, the singers hardly had to embroider it. Ser Barristan did indeed scale the walls unseen in the dark of the night, using nothing but his bare hands, and he did disguise himself as a hooded beggar as he made his way to the Dun Fort. It is true, as well, that he managed to scale the walls of the Dun Fort in turn, killing a guard on the wallwalk before he could raise the alarm. Then, by stealth and courage, he found his way to the dungeon where the king was being kept. By the time he had Aerys Targaryen out of the dungeon, however, the king's absence had been noted, and the hue and cry went up. And then the true breadth of Ser Barristan's heroism was revealed, for he stood and fought rather than surrender himself or his king'

 

'.And not only did he fight, but he struck first, taking Lord Darklyn's good-brother and master-at-arms, Ser Symon Hollard, and a pair of guards unawares, slaying them all—and so avenging the death of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard, who had been killed at Hollard's hand. He hurried with the king to the stables, fighting his way through those who tried to intervene, and the two were able to ride out of Dun Fort before the castle's gates could be closed. Then there was the wild ride through the streets of Duskendale, while horns and trumpets sounded the alarm, and the race up to the walls as Lord Tywin's archers attempted to clear it of defenders'.

[Khal Boner]

And bolton land is different from stark land it be different I'd stannis was camped near the dreadfort or the men were Stark men at arms lead by a Stark (even then I'd call the scene fucking dumb but it's a bit more logical) but they weren't they were Bolton's who had never been near the field lead by ramsay a crazy shirtless man.

 

It's about the cold. The Bolton's are from the frozen North. It makes perfect sense that they would be more comfortable and used to fighting in those conditions than an army of southerners.

[ViniciusMJ]

What's wrong with a 7-month pregnancy? Hell, Gilly's baby is still a swaddling infant at age 3. It's like reverse SORAS, 

 

GoT put the bar pretty high in terms of SORAS with Tommen. I began to think Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were triplets!  :cool4:

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
It's about the cold. The Bolton's are from the frozen North. It makes perfect sense that they would be more comfortable and used to fighting in those conditions than an army of southerners.

But they weren't fighting they were using active camo to go invisible then light enough fires to cripple 5k men at the same time without being spotted in below 0 temperatures.

[Cas Stark]

Eh, it might have been barely believable if they hadn't had to have a "cool" visual moment and make all the fires totally syncronized  down to the second.  

 

But, it's more the cumulative effect of ALL the utterly stupid and incompetent decisions that Stannis makes over the course of 2 episodes that causes that arc to be unbelievable to me.  Not only the 20 men northern ninja team.  But the ninja's combined with the rest of it.

[protar]

I'm not arguing the importance to the plot are equal, and actually neither have you, I'm arguing the acts are of a similar level of likeliness. Geaorge actually does give us some specifics which if anything make it even more unbelievable. The following is again from AWOIAF;

 

'The songs of Ser Barristan's daring rescue of the king are many, and, for a rarity, the singers hardly had to embroider it. Ser Barristan did indeed scale the walls unseen in the dark of the night, using nothing but his bare hands, and he did disguise himself as a hooded beggar as he made his way to the Dun Fort. It is true, as well, that he managed to scale the walls of the Dun Fort in turn, killing a guard on the wallwalk before he could raise the alarm. Then, by stealth and courage, he found his way to the dungeon where the king was being kept. By the time he had Aerys Targaryen out of the dungeon, however, the king's absence had been noted, and the hue and cry went up. And then the true breadth of Ser Barristan's heroism was revealed, for he stood and fought rather than surrender himself or his king'

 

'.And not only did he fight, but he struck first, taking Lord Darklyn's good-brother and master-at-arms, Ser Symon Hollard, and a pair of guards unawares, slaying them all—and so avenging the death of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard, who had been killed at Hollard's hand. He hurried with the king to the stables, fighting his way through those who tried to intervene, and the two were able to ride out of Dun Fort before the castle's gates could be closed. Then there was the wild ride through the streets of Duskendale, while horns and trumpets sounded the alarm, and the race up to the walls as Lord Tywin's archers attempted to clear it of defenders'.

 

Again - I'm not denying that this is a pretty amazing series of events. But it's not an outright impossibility like 20GM is. In that story Barristan sneaks into a fort and manages five confirmed kills. That's not impossible. 

[Khal Boner]

But they weren't fighting they were using active camo to go invisible then light enough fires to cripple 5k men at the same time without being spotted in below 0 temperatures.

 

In the North. In winter. In a snowstorm. Call me mad but I think 20 Northerners would do a better job in that situation than 20 Dornishmen or Summer Islanders.

[Khal Boner]

 

Again - I'm not denying that this is a pretty amazing series of events. But it's not an outright impossibility like 20GM is. In that story Barristan sneaks into a fort and manages five confirmed kills. That's not impossible. 

 

It's totally unrealistic. He's not Superman.

[lancerman]

No it's just the critism against the burning of Stannis camp is that "it's extremely difficult and highly unlikely it could be pulled off as easily as it was".

The criticism against Arya not revealing herself to Roose is "she forgoes all logic about the situation because she didn't like Roose, and put herself in what at the time was the seemingly impossible situation of escaping the castle and navigating her way back with children through a warzone to a place she's never been, because she was that dead set on not asking mean old Roose who she knows works for her brother, for help".

One is these guys overachieved to a ridiculously high level. The other is this girl lowered her threshold of intelligence to unprecedentedly stupid levels because the plot demanded it. Two different things.

In Arya's situation we know exactly what happened. And in the long run she made a decision that defied any logic presented. In Ramsay's situation there are too many gaps left open (like Ramsay could be planning for weeks or over month, he could have guards in on it like Stannis hypothesized, the Bolton's might have had some of the best knight's in the North/realm with Ramsay, because of the storm Stannis might have had to scale down his guard duties) to accurately say how unlikely it would be to pull it off. In Arya's situation the best case scenario is that she's really stupid. In Ramsay's the worst case is that Roose gave him a bunch of James Bond's who were fantastic at stealth and guerilla warfare to work with. One is lowering a well established character to the service of the plot, the other is raising a bunch of unknown characters to the service of the plot.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
In the North. In winter. In a snowstorm. Call me mad but I think 20 Northerners would do a better job in that situation than 20 Dornishmen or Summer Islanders.

That is not what i said but good dodge yes a northener is better at dealing with the cold a dornishman is good at fighting in the desert none of them are good at crippling small armies with 20 men being led by a crazy shirtless man.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

 

Again - I'm not denying that this is a pretty amazing series of events. But it's not an outright impossibility like 20GM is. In that story Barristan sneaks into a fort and manages five confirmed kills. That's not impossible. 

It's the getting out that's the unbelievable bit, he fights his way through all that tried to stop him, he doesn't only have to worry about the swords and arrows that may strike him, but also those that may strike Aerys. It may not be impossible, but it's damn close.